Bible Study Origin of the Immortal Soul Doctrine

[Jay T]

Origin of the Immortal Soul doctrine was started by who ?
http://home.earthlink.net/~hot_ice/

 

[Bob10]

cool web site. I need it for another discussion I'm in.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nephesh.html

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html

 

[Jay T]

cool web site. I need it for another discussion I'm in.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nephesh.html

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html

As a fellow SDA, you are welcome to anything I have.
Here are a couple more that relate to the topic:
http://home.earthlink.net/~hot_ice/part ... atasoulis/

http://home.earthlink.net/~hot_ice/part ... hedeadnow/

 

[serapha]

Origin of the Immortal Soul doctrine was started by who ?
http://home.earthlink.net/~hot_ice/

Your link cites this...

"The Bible tells us plainly who is the father of this error of the immortality of the soul is. We read the words of Jesus to the religious leaders: "You are of your father the devil.....for he is a liar and the father of it." (John 8:44."

Are you telling me that because I believe in an immortal soul that I worship satan?

Please read rule #2 before you reply.

~serapha~

 

[Jay T]

Origin of the Immortal Soul doctrine was started by who ?
http://home.earthlink.net/~hot_ice/

Your link cites this...

"The Bible tells us plainly who is the father of this error of the immortality of the soul is. We read the words of Jesus to the religious leaders: "You are of your father the devil.....for he is a liar and the father of it." (John 8:44."

Are you telling me that because I believe in an immortal soul that I worship satan?

Please read rule #2 before you reply.

~serapha~

"Know you not to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey, whether of sin unto death...or, of obedience unto righteousness ?", (Romans 6:16).

Did Adam and Eve believe God or Satan ?

 

[serapha]

Hello Jay T,


I really don't know if you are using the Bible or abusing it in your reply... but I did note that you avoided answering the question I asked concerning the new rules on this forum.

Rule 2 - No Flaming:
You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian.

You, Sir, have posted a link that identifies that those who believe the soul is immortal worship satan...

~serapha~

 

[Christ Michael]

Could someone explain to me, in plain English and without Bible quotes, what a soul is and why it is supposed to be immortal ?? Also, what is the difference between a soul and spirit ?? Thanx.



Cheers

 

[serapha]

Could someone explain to me, in plain English and without Bible quotes, what a soul is and why it is supposed to be immortal ?? Also, what is the difference between a soul and spirit ?? Thanx.



Cheers

Hi there!

Generally speaking, the soul is the personality, the will, the intellect and emotions of man. This would include ideals, thoughts, emotions, discernment, choice, decision. The spirit is defined with every communication of God and man including conscience, intuition, and communion.


And again, generally speaking, the soul is the inner man, the being, yet the spirit is that part of man that connects in communication with God, who is also spirit.


That part of man that lives eternally is the soul. The spirit of man is given by God and at death, returns to God.


~serapha~

 

[goliwog man]

when we die our soul goes to eighter heven or hell.
I think of the soul like a heart that doesnt die, the pump for our spiritual body. like the heart pumps our physical body.

 

[Christ Michael]

Thank you both. I really appreciate it !

Could someone explain to me, in plain English and without Bible quotes, what a soul is and why it is supposed to be immortal ?? Also, what is the difference between a soul and spirit ?? Thanx.



Cheers

Hi there!

Generally speaking, the soul is the personality, the will, the intellect and emotions of man. This would include ideals, thoughts, emotions, discernment, choice, decision. The spirit is defined with every communication of God and man including conscience, intuition, and communion.


And again, generally speaking, the soul is the inner man, the being, yet the spirit is that part of man that connects in communication with God, who is also spirit.


That part of man that lives eternally is the soul. The spirit of man is given by God and at death, returns to God.


~serapha~

That part of man that lives eternally is the soul. The spirit of man is given by God and at death, returns to God.

If we sin, can the soul be destroyed ? Where, within us, does the spirit dwell ? If the soul is NOT the same as spirit how can the soul enter heaven ? Thanx


Cheers

 

[Bob10]

excerpt:

According to the Bible, a human being exists as a whole unit and remains also as a whole person in the hand of God after death. A person is not at any time viewed as a bodiless soul -- Holman Bible Dictionary, article: soul.

http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5974

 

[serapha]

excerpt:

According to the Bible, a human being exists as a whole unit and remains also as a whole person in the hand of God after death. A person is not at any time viewed as a bodiless soul -- Holman Bible Dictionary, article: soul.

http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5974

Hi there!

Then explain the passage in Revelation which speaks of the souls under the altar asking "how long"....


~serapha~




Re 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Re 18:13
And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

Re 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[serapha]

If we sin, can the soul be destroyed ?


Cheers

Hi there!


I believe you are referencing ...


Eze 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view. ... &verse=004
the soul that sinneth, it shall die;

the soul that continues in sin, without repentance towards God, and faith in Christ, shall die the second death; shall be separated from the presence of God, and endure his wrath to all eternity: or the meaning is, that a person that is guilty of gross sins, and continues in them, shall personally suffer; he shall endure one calamity or another, as the famine, sword, pestilence, or be carried into captivity, which is the death all along spoken of in this chapter; the Lord will exercise no patience towards him, or defer punishment to a future generation, his offspring; but shall immediately execute it upon himself.

Where, within us, does the spirit dwell ?

"within" is the only understanding.

If the soul is NOT the same as spirit how can the soul enter heaven ? Thanx

All souls are eternal, and each soul will either be eternally in the presence of God or eternally separated from the presence of God.

I gave you the references in Revelation of souls being in heaven. Luke 16 identifies that upon death, the soul is immediately somewhere outside this physical body.


~serapha~

 

[goliwog man]

your soul is lost without christ thats why he died. To save our soul. It was borne mutated with sin but jesus is the doctor

 

[Christ Michael]

serapha wrote:

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

but goliwog man says:

your soul is lost without christ thats why he died. To save our soul. It was borne mutated with sin but jesus is the doctor

I don't understand why a soul would be born mutated with sin. Both of these opinions can't be correct as they are diametrically opposed !!


bob 10 writes:

excerpt:

According to the Bible, a human being exists as a whole unit and remains also as a whole person in the hand of God after death. A person is not at any time viewed as a bodiless soul -- Holman Bible Dictionary, article: soul.

http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5974

Please elaborate on the meaning of " a human being exists as a whole unit". What are the parts of this whole unit ?



It is my understanding that unless a being is PERFECT it can never be with The Father in Heaven. If there are souls in Heaven when did they become perfect ? If the definition or concept of the soul is this:

Generally speaking, the soul is the personality, the will, the intellect and emotions of man. This would include ideals, thoughts, emotions, discernment, choice, decision. The spirit is defined with every communication of God and man including conscience, intuition, and communion.


And again, generally speaking, the soul is the inner man, the being, yet the spirit is that part of man that connects in communication with God, who is also spirit.


That part of man that lives eternally is the soul. The spirit of man is given by God and at death, returns to God.

then we are talking about a lot of imperfection here !! Please explain.



Cheers

 

[Bob10]

that's right.

Jesus died and was resurrected to save souls --- human beings from the second death in the lake of fire, from which there is no resurrection (Rev. 20:5-6; 21:8).

http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5974


people don't have souls, they are "living souls" (Gen. 2:7 / 1 Cor. 15:45).

There were 276 people [souls] on Paul's ship --- Acts 27:37.

 

[serapha]

serapha wrote:


[quote:eaa29]Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

but goliwog man says:

[quote:eaa29]your soul is lost without christ thats why he died. To save our soul. It was borne mutated with sin but jesus is the doctor

I don't understand why a soul would be born mutated with sin. Both of these opinions can't be correct as they are diametrically opposed !![/quote:eaa29]


Hi there!

What this member has said, I would understand to mean that each human is born with original sin (mutated with sin)... If that is not the case then goliwag man will speak for himself.

The statements are not in opposition.

It is my understanding that unless a being is PERFECT it can never be with The Father in Heaven. If there are souls in Heaven when did they become perfect ? If the definition or concept of the soul is this:

[quote:eaa29]Generally speaking, the soul is the personality, the will, the intellect and emotions of man. This would include ideals, thoughts, emotions, discernment, choice, decision. The spirit is defined with every communication of God and man including conscience, intuition, and communion.


And again, generally speaking, the soul is the inner man, the being, yet the spirit is that part of man that connects in communication with God, who is also spirit.


That part of man that lives eternally is the soul. The spirit of man is given by God and at death, returns to God.

then we are talking about a lot of imperfection here !! Please explain.



Cheers[/quote:eaa29][/quote:eaa29]

Hi there!

Human beings will never be "perfect"... and being "perfect" is a works program.... Christians (or rather, their souls) are saved by faith and not by their works.

~serapha~

 

[Christ Michael]

I see there is a lot of confusion and many different opinions as to what a soul is. Try this:

6. AT EPHESUS--DISCOURSE ON THE SOUL


On leaving Athens, the travelers went by way of Troas to Ephesus, the capital of the Roman province of Asia. They made many trips out to the famous temple of Artemis of the Ephesians, about two miles from the city. Artemis was the most


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famous goddess of all Asia Minor and a perpetuation of the still earlier mother goddess of ancient Anatolian times. The crude idol exhibited in the enormous temple dedicated to her worship was reputed to have fallen from heaven. Not all of Ganid's early training to respect images as symbols of divinity had been eradicated, and he thought it best to purchase a little silver shrine in honor of this fertility goddess of Asia Minor. That night they talked at great length about the worship of things made with human hands.

On the third day of their stay they walked down by the river to observe the dredging of the harbor's mouth. At noon they talked with a young Phoenician who was homesick and much discouraged; but most of all he was envious of a certain young man who had received promotion over his head. Jesus spoke comforting words to him and quoted the olden Hebrew proverb: "A man's gift makes room for him and brings him before great men."

Of all the large cities they visited on this tour of the Mediterranean, they here accomplished the least of value to the subsequent work of the Christian missionaries. Christianity secured its start in Ephesus largely through the efforts of Paul, who resided here more than two years, making tents for a living and conducting lectures on religion and philosophy each night in the main audience chamber of the school of Tyrannus.

There was a progressive thinker connected with this local school of philosophy, and Jesus had several profitable sessions with him. In the course of these talks Jesus had repeatedly used the word "soul." This learned Greek finally asked him what he meant by "soul," and he replied:

"The soul is the self-reflective, truth-discerning, and spirit-perceiving part of man which forever elevates the human being above the level of the animal world. Self-consciousness, in and of itself, is not the soul. Moral self-consciousness is true human self-realization and constitutes the foundation of the human soul, and the soul is that part of man which represents the potential survival value of human experience. Moral choice and spiritual attainment, the ability to know God and the urge to be like him, are the characteristics of the soul. The soul of man cannot exist apart from moral thinking and spiritual activity. A stagnant soul is a dying soul. But the soul of man is distinct from the divine spirit which dwells within the mind. The divine spirit arrives simultaneously with the first moral activity of the human mind, and that is the occasion of the birth of the soul.

"The saving or losing of a soul has to do with whether or not the moral consciousness attains survival status through eternal alliance with its associated immortal spirit endowment. Salvation is the spiritualization of the self-realization of the moral consciousness, which thereby becomes possessed of survival value. All forms of soul conflict consist in the lack of harmony between the moral, or spiritual, self-consciousness and the purely intellectual self-consciousness.

"The human soul, when matured, ennobled, and spiritualized, approaches the heavenly status in that it comes near to being an entity intervening between the material and the spiritual, the material self and the divine spirit. The evolving soul of a human being is difficult of description and more difficult of demonstration because it is not discoverable by the methods of either material investigation or spiritual proving. Material science cannot demonstrate the existence of a soul, neither can pure spirit-testing. Notwithstanding the failure of both material science and spiritual standards to discover the existence of the human soul, every


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morally conscious mortal knows of the existence of his soul as a real and actual personal experience."

[from The Urantia Book]

Also this:

These qualities of universal reality are manifest in Urantian human experience on the following levels:


1. Body. The material or physical organism of man. The living electrochemical mechanism of animal nature and origin.


2. Mind. The thinking, perceiving, and feeling mechanism of the human organism. The total conscious and unconscious experience. The intelligence associated with the emotional life reaching upward through worship and wisdom to the spirit level.


3. Spirit. The divine spirit that indwells the mind of man--the Thought Adjuster.This immortal spirit is prepersonal--not a personality, though destined to become a part of the personality of the surviving mortal creature.


4. Soul. The soul of man is an experiential acquirement. As a mortal creature chooses to "do the will of the Father in heaven," so the indwelling spirit becomes the father of a new reality in human experience. The mortal and material mind is the mother of this same emerging reality. The substance of this new reality is neither material nor spiritual--it is morontial.( semi-spirit) This is the emerging



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and immortal soul which is destined to survive mortal death and begin the Paradise ascension.

Personality. The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul. Personality is the one changeless reality in an otherwise ever-changing creature experience; and it unifies all other associated factors of individuality. The personality is the unique bestowal which the Universal Father makes upon the living and associated energies of matter, mind, and spirit, and which survives with the survival of the morontial soul.


Morontia is a term designating a vast level intervening between the material and the spiritual.

[from The Urantia Book]

One does not jump straight to Heaven after their mortal life, here on Earth, is done. One does not become like The Father in Heaven after living on Earth the average life span of 70 years. In that average life span one can not learn that much about The Heavenly Father and one certainly can not SPIRITUALIZE one's MIND to be able to do " the will of The Father". Jesus was the only one able to do this because he is God but the rest of us mortals have to do it through eternal progression and this eternal progression is the soul's ascension toward our Heavenly Father. In the semi-spirit realities the soul learns even more how to do " the will of The Father" until such time that the soul " be as perfect as our Father in Heaven". It is at that point in your eternal progression where you get to meet Jesus who is " The Way, The Truth and The Life and no one comes to The Father except through him".


Cheers

 

[serapha]

HI there!


I think I would have to be reading those manuscripts for myself. Could you direct me to...s ay... the oldest manuscripts available?


~serapha~

 

[Christ Michael]

HI there!


I think I would have to be reading those manuscripts for myself. Could you direct me to...s ay... the oldest manuscripts available?


~serapha~

One can find all the info at http://www.urantia.org. One can search The UBook by using the search engine. There are no " oldest manuscripts". Everything is written in clear and plain English.


Cheers