Bible Study Origin of the Immortal Soul Doctrine

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Free said:
CM,

Luke 16 were NEVER Jesus' words because hell doesn't exist !!! What you have in Luke 16 is someone's fertile imagination.

Care to back that up with some evidence? Is the word "hell" inserted into the text by someone else everytime it seems Jesus mentions it?

[quote:748ce]An all loving and mercifull Father would NEVER create a place where an immortal soul would be tormented for eternity !!!

And why not? Give me even one good reason.

P.S. I have never heard of dead people having a conversation !!

I have, in Luke 16. It's in the text and it stands as vaild unless you can prove that someone else inserted it.[/quote:748ce]

Care to back that up with some evidence? Is the word "hell" inserted into the text by someone else everytime it seems Jesus mentions it?

I have done a search on the word " hell" in The UBook and the word doesn't appear in " The Life and Teachings of Jesus" and neither does the theology of The UBook allow for hell. You don't seem to be able to COMPREHEND that the words Father, kind and mercifull, forever preclude the possibility of there being hell !!! Jews, however, believed in hell, so it's not surprising that their theology polluted Jesus' teachings. After all the writers of the gospels were Jewish.


 
CM,

I have done a search on the word " hell" in The UBook and the word doesn't appear in " The Life and Teachings of Jesus"

So? It's everywhere in the NT and in particular, in the Gospels.

You don't seem to be able to COMPREHEND that the words Father, kind and mercifull, forever preclude the possibility of there being hell !!!

You still haven't given me one good, rational reason for that argument.

Jews, however, believed in hell, so it's not surprising that their theology polluted Jesus' teachings. After all the writers of the gospels were Jewish.

Yes, and Jesus was a Jew. The fact that the Bible has Jesus mentioning hell many times is consistent, whereas the UBook is not consistent.
 
To Free:

The Revealed Truth in The UBook states that God The Father's love, mercy and kindness precludes the existance of hell, where his children would be tormented for eternity. In the worst case scenario, as in the Lucifer, Satan and Devil's case, because they absolutely refuse to repent,the universal law of " What mercy can NOT rehabilitate, justice will annihilate " will apply.

In your man-made theology, it is YOU who has to reconcile Father's love, mercy and kindness with everlasting torment in hell. Good luck !!!!!




Cheers
 
The Revealed Truth in The UBook states that God The Father's love, mercy and kindness precludes the existance of hell, where his children would be tormented for eternity. In the worst case scenario, as in the Lucifer, Satan and Devil's case, because they absolutely refuse to repent,the universal law of " What mercy can NOT rehabilitate, justice will annihilate " will apply.

In your man-made theology, it is YOU who has to reconcile Father's love, mercy and kindness with everlasting torment in hell. Good luck !!!!!

CM Rubbish

the bible is the final authority Uranita is an evil cult out to disprove Gods word.

your not a Christian becouse you dont believe Gods word.

Urantia is annother yet 19th century mind bending cult that is out to disprove the Bible as being the false interpretation of Gods word.

the uranit book is simple, its evil

God said not to have any other Gods before him

yet on The Urantia Book, is expressed on page 1130:3:

"While your religion is a matter of personal experience, it is most important that you should be exposed to the knowledge of a vast number of other religious experiences (the diverse interpretations of other and diverse mortals) to the end that you may prevent your religious life from becoming egocentric -- circumscribed, selfish, and unsocial."

so we have religous tolorance, this is opposition to Gods word.

we cannot worship Budah and Worship Jesus.

yet the book is for every religion.

This is from the urantia fellowship web site.

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/ppr097_8.html

P1071:1, 97:8.3 of the Book

But five hundred years of the overlordship of alien rulers was too much for even the patient and long-suffering Jews. The prophets and priests began to cry: "How long, O Lord, how long?" As the honest Jew searched the Scriptures, his confusion became worse confounded. An olden seer promised that God would protect and deliver his "chosen people." Amos had threatened that God would abandon Israel unless they re-established their standards of national righteousness. The scribe of Deuteronomy had portrayed the Great Choice -- as between the good and the evil, the blessing and the curse. Isaiah the first had preached a beneficent king-deliverer. Jeremiah had proclaimed an era of inner righteousness -- the covenant written on the tablets of the heart. The second Isaiah talked about salvation by sacrifice and redemption. Ezekiel proclaimed deliverance through the service of devotion, and Ezra promised prosperity by adherence to the law. But in spite of all this they lingered on in bondage, and deliverance was deferred. Then Daniel presented the drama of the impending "crisis" -- the smiting of the great image and the immediate establishment of the the everlasting reign of righteousness, the Messianic kingdom.

http://urantiabook.org:5631/query.html? ... 8859-1&ql=



P.780 ¶3.

Modern society is in reverse. Slavery has nearly disappeared; domesticated animals are passing. Civilization is reaching back to fire--the inorganic world--for power. Man came up from savagery by way of fire, animals, and slavery; today he reaches back, discarding the help of slaves and the assistance of animals, while he seeks to wrest new secrets and sources of wealth and power from the elemental storehouse of nature. (show slide #12 of Hiroshima mushroom cloud)

Now let us get to the gist of this subject. I have a picture here of so called "aliens" from outer space. They are said to be 30 inches in height. But from our Urantia Book we know: (#13)

http://www.endtimeprophecy.net/~tttbbs/ ... ntia1.html


THE URANTIA BOOK : A DANGEROUS NEW AGE DOCTRINE!

Urantia Book, Byron Weeks, New Age Thought, Deception,
Strong Delusion, Channeling, Channelers, False Prophets,
Blood Atonement, Redemption, Sacrifice Of Christ, Satan,
Father Of Lies, Satan's Plan, Beast, Melchizedek, Michael
The Archangel, Archangel Michael, Jehovah's Witnesses, War
In Heaven, False Angel Of Light, Celestial Names, Heavenly
Names, Celestial Government, Heavenly Government, Our Hope,
Size Of Universe, False Brethren, Defining Offend, Apostasy


Some time ago, the following erroneous statement was made by
Dr. Byron Weeks concerning the relationship between Jesus
Christ and the Archangel Michael:

----- Begin Quote -----

"According to the Urantia Book, The Archangel was the
"Archangel OF Michael" for Michael is the Heavenly title or
name of Jesus, who is the Creator of this "Local Universe."
Melchizedek is one of His Sons, and Not Jesus Christ.
"Michael" has a whole hierarchy of Sons which include
Lucifer, and his subordinate, Satan..."

-----End Of Quote -----

In quite a few of my other articles, I have sounded the
alarm for the many lies and inaccuracies which are being
espoused and propagated in this current 'Age Of Deception'
by New Age thought advocates and other self-styled false
prophets of the Endtime. The above quote is clearly another
example of the strong delusion which is overcoming those who
have rejected God's holy unerring Word, the Bible. But, as I
have pointed out elsewhere, this is all in fulfillment of
words which were spoken almost two thousand years ago such
as the following:

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,
and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it
were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
(Matthew 24:24)

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound
doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to
themselves teachers, having itching ears;" (2 Timothy 4:3)

"...because they received not the love of the truth, that
they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them
strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
(2 Thessalonians 2:10b-11)

While I have read parts of the Urantia Book, I will readily
admit that I have not read it in its entirety. However, to
be honest, based on what I have read thus far, and the grave
errors that I have seen in it, I have no intentions of
reading the remainder any time soon, if ever. Considering
the above quoted material, plus another letter written by
Dr. Weeks in 1996, (which I will shortly quote below), I
have no doubt whatsoever that the Urantia Book is just
another product of New Age psychobabble. According to what I
have read, it was 'received' as a collection of papers from
so-called 'spiritual entities' during the first half of the
twentieth century, under conditions which seem very similar
to me to New Age channeling.

Regardless of the source of its origin, it is absolutely
clear to me that the primary motivation behind writing the
Urantia Book was to strike a mortal blow at the credibility
of, and The Truth found within, the pages of the Holy Bible.
It is for this reason that I prefer to call it the Unbelief
Book, as its sole purpose is to rob one's faith in the Bible
as the inspired Word of God. As will be seen by Mr. Week's
letter below, the Urantia Book strike at the very heart of
Christianity, at the Cornerstone of our Faith, which is the
redemptive Blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross at Calvary. I
do not recommend that any Christian, particularly young
Christians who are new in the Faith and not yet grounded in
the True Word of God, read this demonic work of darkness. If
you do, you may find yourself seriously doubting your
Christian heritage! As far as I can tell, the voice or
entity which inspired this book is definitely NOT of God. As
John warns us in his first epistle:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits
whether they are of God: because many false prophets are
gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)

My words may seem very harsh indeed; however, after reading
the following excerpts, I am sure you will understand why my
reaction to this material is so strong; particularly if you
are a Bible-believing Christian like myself. Here then is
Dr. Byron Week's letter of 1996:

----- BEGIN QUOTE -----

August 10, 1996


Dear Ms. Wallace,

Thank you for being concerned about the condition of my
soul.

I suggest that we rethink our concepts about the nature of
God and Jesus, after reading the following references from a
modern epochal revelation, The Urantia Papers, which are
given at the end of a dispensation.

The atonement doctrine was largely from the ideas of Paul of
Tarsus, who had never even met Jesus in the flesh. It is
almost identical to the Mithraic doctrine, a pagan belief in
atonement by the barbaric shedding of blood, common in
Tarsus (Tarshish) in Asia Minor where Paul spent his youth.
I have yet to find in the Bible where Jusu bar Jussef said
that He was going to die to "atone for the sins of mankind!"
Sure, He laid down His life even though He could have saved
Himself at any time, for His Father's will was that He go
through death just as Man must do.

Could it be that you fundamentalists are the ones who are
insulting God by your primitive belief system? God is a God
of love, not of vengeance.


THE ATONEMENT DOCTRINE

Urantia Book, Paper 4, Page 59

Religious tradition is the imperfectly preserved record of
the experiences of the God-knowing men of past ages, but
such records are untrustworthy as guides for religious
living or as the source of true information about the
Universal Father. Such ancient beliefs have been invariably
altered by the fact that primitive man was a mythmaker.

From The Urantia Book Paper-4 Section-5 Para-2 Page-60
Line-3 Para-1

One of the greatest sources of confusion on Earth
(Urantia) concerning the nature of God grows out of the
failure of your sacred books clearly to distinguish between
the personalities of the Paradise Trinity and between
Paradise Deity and the local universe creators and
administrators. During the past dispensations of partial
understanding, your priests and prophets failed clearly to
differentiate between Planetary Princes, System Sovereigns,
Constellation Fathers, Creator Sons, Superuniverse Rulers,
the Supreme Being, and the Universal Father. Many of the
messages of subordinate personalities, such as Life Carriers
and various orders of angels, have been, in your records,
presented as coming from God himself. Urantian religious
thought still confuses the associate personalities of Deity
with the Universal Father himself, so that all are included
under one appellation.

Paper-4 Section-5 Para-3 Page-60 Line-14 Para-2

The people of Urantia continue to suffer from the
influence of primitive concepts of God. The gods who go on a
rampage in the storm; who shake the earth in their wrath and
strike down men in their anger; who inflict their judgments
of displeasure in times of famine and flood--these are the
gods of primitive religion; they are not the Gods who live
and rule the universes. Such concepts are a relic of the
times when men supposed that the universe was under the
guidance and domination of the whims of such imaginary gods.
But mortal man is beginning to realize that he lives in a
realm of comparative law and order as far as concerns the
administrative policies and conduct of the Supreme Creators
and the Supreme Controllers.

Paper-4 Section-5 Para-4 Page-60 Line-24 Para-3

The barbarous idea of appeasing an angry God, of
propitiating an offended Lord, of winning the favor of Deity
through sacrifices and penance and even by the shedding of
blood, represents a religion wholly puerile and primitive, a
philosophy unworthy of an enlightened age of science and
truth. Such beliefs are utterly repulsive to the celestial
beings and the divine rulers who serve and reign in the
universes. It is an affront to God to believe, hold, or
teach that innocent blood must be shed in order to win his
favor or to divert the fictitious divine wrath.

Paper-4 Section-5 Para-5 Page-60 Line-31 Para-4

The Hebrews believed that "without the shedding of
blood there could be no remission of sin." They had not
found deliverance from the old and pagan idea that the Gods
could not be appeased except by the sight of blood, though
Moses did make a distinct advance when he forbade human
sacrifices and substituted therefore, in the primitive minds
of his childlike Bedouin followers, the ceremonial sacrifice
of animals.

Paper-4 Section-5 Para-6 Page-60 Line-37 Para-5

The bestowal of a Paradise Son on your world was
inherent in the situation of closing a planetary age; it was
inescapable, and it was not made necessary for the purpose
of winning the favor of God. This bestowal also happened to
be the final personal act of a Creator Son in the long
adventure of earning the experiential sovereignty of his
universe. What a travesty upon the infinite character of God
! This teaching that his fatherly heart in all its austere
coldness and hardness, was so untouched by the misfortunes
and sorrows of his creatures, that his tender mercies were
not forthcoming until he saw his blameless Son bleeding and
dying upon the cross of Calvary!

Paper-4 Section-5 Para-7 Page-60 Line-46 Para-6

But the inhabitants of Urantia are to find
deliverance from these ancient errors and pagan
superstitions respecting the nature of the Universal Father.
The revelation of the truth about God is appearing, and the
human race is destined to know the Universal Father in all
that beauty of character and loveliness of attributes so
magnificently portrayed by the Creator Son who sojourned on
Urantia as the Son of Man and the Son of God.

Ref. The Urantia Book, pages 59-60 (There should be a copy
in the City library.)

In His love,

Byron T. Weeks, MD

-----END OF QUOTE -----

What blatant lies! What heresies are being committed in the
Holy Name of Truth! I will be the first to admit that the
Bible, due to manipulations in the past by the so-called
'Church Fathers' and others, is not complete. There were
many scrolls, manuscripts and books whose contents were
deemed either false, uninspired or inaccurate by those who
compiled our modern Bible. I have no doubt that there are
other things which have been purposely hid from us because
those who have controlled religion for the past several
thousand years either don't want us to know about them, or
else they feel that we are not yet ready to accept them.
Even the Apostle Paul felt obligated to withhold some of the
deeper Truths from the young Christians of his day:
 
CM,

The Revealed Truth in The UBook states that God The Father's love, mercy and kindness precludes the existance of hell, where his children would be tormented for eternity.

You keep reguritating the same line from the UBook, which is not a good, rational reason for your argument.

So what we have in this thread so far, to bring it somewhat back on topic, is this:

Zero reason to believe the UBook's claims.

Therefore, Luke's passage proves the existence of souls outside of the body (three dead guys having a conversation). Also, God will punish for eternity those who do not accept Jesus, as revealed in the Bible.
 
I, for one, am grieved by ANTIchrist michael's continued promotion of false doctrines and false Gods and this other Gnostic abomination he wants us to accept as being the truth.

He hasn't proved his point at all, in fact he has proved the Bible to be true, much to his dismay--
 
Free said:
CM,

The Revealed Truth in The UBook states that God The Father's love, mercy and kindness precludes the existance of hell, where his children would be tormented for eternity.

You keep reguritating the same line from the UBook, which is not a good, rational reason for your argument.

So what we have in this thread so far, to bring it somewhat back on topic, is this:

Zero reason to believe the UBook's claims.

Therefore, Luke's passage proves the existence of souls outside of the body (three dead guys having a conversation). Also, God will punish for eternity those who do not accept Jesus, as revealed in the Bible.

I am really trying to spare you the embarressment, by exposing you as a person who is devoid of spirit-leading in his life !!! Only a person totally devoid of Christ would ask for a "rational reason" as to why God The Father loves !!!!


Cheers
 
To willow the wip:


Any time you quote from The UBook there is nothing but love, kindness and mercy.
Any time you quote from your sources there is nothing but hate, unkindness and savagery. Just who is your Father ???? Is it him ?...



1. What punishment does God mandate for anyone with a different religion?

Correct Answer:) (Death of the nonbeliever (man and woman, great and small) and everyone in the community.) “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed†(Exodus 22:20). “If thou shalt hear say . . . Certain men . . . saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword†(Deuteronomy 13:12-15). “That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman†(2 Chronicles 15:13).


2. How did Jesus punish those with different religions?

Correct Answer: “And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak . . . because thou believest not my words†(Luke 1:20). “And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost†(Acts 12:23). “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me†(Luke 19:27).


3. Pharaoh, alone, made the decision to imprison the Israelites. How did God punish this lone individual?

Correct Answer: "And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle†(Exodus 12:29). And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt . . . And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast†(Exodus 9:22-25). “And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all Egyptians†(Exodus 9:11).


4. How does God punish complainers?

Correct Answer: (God will burn the complainer, and everyone residing anywhere near him, with fire.) “And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord: and the Lord heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the Lord burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp†(Numbers 11:1).


5. How has God punished those who have no knowledge of him?

Correct Answer: (He has sent lions to maul the ignorant to death.) “Wherefore they spake to the king of Assyria, saying, The nations which thou hast removed, and placed in the cities of Samaria, know not the manner of the God of the land: therefore he hath sent lions among them, and, behold, they slay them, because they know not the manner of the God of the land†(2 Kings 17:26).


6. How should we punish whore-committing nonbelievers in a manner that will reduce God’s otherwise unrelenting wrath?

Correct Answer: (Kill them, and hang their heads against the sun for God to view.) “And Israel abode in I love Jesus a lot, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. . . . and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel. And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel†(Numbers 25:1-4)


What punishment does God mandate for a man who rapes a virgin?

Correct Answer:) (The rapist and his victim shall be married) "If a man finds a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days Deuteronomy 22:28-29)."


1. What punishment did God say is mandatory for an unruly child?

Correct answer:) (Stoning To Death) "And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die" (Deuteronomy 21:20-21). "For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death" (Mark 7:10). "And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death" (Exodus 21:15). "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death (Exodus 21:17)."



These are the "holy words" of YOUR Father. You deserve every bit of him !!!


P.S. It is not fair that we should pollute many a thread with attacks on The UBook. I will start a thread in the theology forum, dealing with the theology of The UBook, where ANY of you can raise ANY questions you like about The UBook.


Cheers
 
CM,

I am really trying to spare you the embarressment, by exposing you as a person who is devoid of spirit-leading in his life !!! Only a person totally devoid of Christ would ask for a "rational reason" as to why God The Father loves !!!!

That's not why I am asking for a rational reason. Have you already forgotten your own argument? Here, I'll post it again, quoting from you:
An all loving and mercifull Father would NEVER create a place where an immortal soul would be tormented for eternity !!!

You have not given any good reason to believe this. Give me a good reason, not "because the UBook says so," since you have given zero reason as to why anyone should even believe anything written in that book.
 
Free said:
CM,

I am really trying to spare you the embarressment, by exposing you as a person who is devoid of spirit-leading in his life !!! Only a person totally devoid of Christ would ask for a "rational reason" as to why God The Father loves !!!!

That's not why I am asking for a rational reason. Have you already forgotten your own argument? Here, I'll post it again, quoting from you:
[quote:ab1cc]An all loving and mercifull Father would NEVER create a place where an immortal soul would be tormented for eternity !!!

You have not given any good reason to believe this. Give me a good reason, not "because the UBook says so," since you have given zero reason as to why anyone should even believe anything written in that book.[/quote:ab1cc]


I am answering your question for the fifth and last time and I hope you finally get it !!!


5. LESSONS FROM THE CROSS


The cross of Jesus portrays the full measure of the supreme devotion of the true shepherd for even the unworthy members of his flock. It forever places


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all relations between God and man upon the family basis. God is the Father; man is his son. Love, the love of a father for his son, becomes the central truth in the universe relations of Creator and creature--not the justice of a king which seeks satisfaction in the sufferings and punishment of the evil-doing subject.

The cross forever shows that the attitude of Jesus toward sinners was neither condemnation nor condonation, but rather eternal and loving salvation. Jesus is truly a savior in the sense that his life and death do win men over to goodness and righteous survival. Jesus loves men so much that his love awakens the response of love in the human heart. Love is truly contagious and eternally creative. Jesus' death on the cross exemplifies a love which is sufficiently strong and divine to forgive sin and swallow up all evil-doing. Jesus disclosed to this world a higher quality of righteousness than justice--mere technical right and wrong. Divine love does not merely forgive wrongs; it absorbs and actually destroys them. The forgiveness of love utterly transcends the forgiveness of mercy. Mercy sets the guilt of evil-doing to one side; but love destroys forever the sin and all weakness resulting therefrom. Jesus brought a new method of living to Urantia. He taught us not to resist evil but to find through him a goodness which effectually destroys evil. The forgiveness of Jesus is not condonation; it is salvation from condemnation. Salvation does not slight wrongs; it makes them right. True love does not compromise nor condone hate; it destroys it. The love of Jesus is never satisfied with mere forgiveness. The Master's love implies rehabilitation, eternal survival. It is altogether proper to speak of salvation as redemption if you mean this eternal rehabilitation.

Jesus, by the power of his personal love for men, could break the hold of sin and evil. He thereby set men free to choose better ways of living. Jesus portrayed a deliverance from the past which in itself promised a triumph for the future. Forgiveness thus provided salvation. The beauty of divine love, once fully admitted to the human heart, forever destroys the charm of sin and the power of evil.

The sufferings of Jesus were not confined to the crucifixion. In reality, Jesus of Nazareth spent upward of twenty-five years on the cross of a real and intense mortal existence. The real value of the cross consists in the fact that it was the supreme and final expression of his love, the completed revelation of his mercy.

On millions of inhabited worlds, tens of trillions of evolving creatures who may have been tempted to give up the moral struggle and abandon the good fight of faith, have taken one more look at Jesus on the cross and then have forged on ahead, inspired by the sight of God's laying down his incarnate life in devotion to the unselfish service of man.

The triumph of the death on the cross is all summed up in the spirit of Jesus' attitude toward those who assailed him. He made the cross an eternal symbol of the triumph of love over hate and the victory of truth over evil when he prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." That devotion of love was contagious throughout a vast universe; the disciples caught it from their Master. The very first teacher of his gospel who was called upon to lay down his life in this service, said, as they stoned him to death, "Lay not this sin to their charge."


The cross makes a supreme appeal to the best in man because it discloses one who was willing to lay down his life in the service of his fellow men. Greater


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love no man can have than this: that he would be willing to lay down his life for his friends--and Jesus had such a love that he was willing to lay down his life for his enemies, a love greater than any which had hitherto been known on earth.

On other worlds, as well as on Urantia, this sublime spectacle of the death of the human Jesus on the cross of Golgotha has stirred the emotions of mortals, while it has aroused the highest devotion of the angels.

The cross is that high symbol of sacred service, the devotion of one's life to the welfare and salvation of one's fellows. The cross is not the symbol of the sacrifice of the innocent Son of God in the place of guilty sinners and in order to appease the wrath of an offended God, but it does stand forever, on earth and throughout a vast universe, as a sacred symbol of the good bestowing themselves upon the evil and thereby saving them by this very devotion of love. The cross does stand as the token of the highest form of unselfish service, the supreme devotion of the full bestowal of a righteous life in the service of wholehearted ministry, even in death, the death of the cross. And the very sight of this great symbol of the bestowal life of Jesus truly inspires all of us to want to go and do likewise.

When thinking men and women look upon Jesus as he offers up his life on the cross, they will hardly again permit themselves to complain at even the severest hardships of life, much less at petty harassments and their many purely fictitious grievances. His life was so glorious and his death so triumphant that we are all enticed to a willingness to share both. There is true drawing power in the whole bestowal of Michael, from the days of his youth to this overwhelming spectacle of his death on the cross.

Make sure, then, that when you view the cross as a revelation of God, you do not look with the eyes of the primitive man nor with the viewpoint of the later barbarian, both of whom regarded God as a relentless Sovereign of stern justice and rigid law-enforcement. Rather, make sure that you see in the cross the final manifestation of the love and devotion of Jesus to his life mission of bestowal upon the mortal races of his vast universe. See in the death of the Son of Man the climax of the unfolding of the Father's divine love for his sons of the mortal spheres. The cross thus portrays the devotion of willing affection and the bestowal of voluntary salvation upon those who are willing to receive such gifts and devotion. There was nothing in the cross which the Father required--only that which Jesus so willingly gave, and which he refused to avoid.

If man cannot otherwise appreciate Jesus and understand the meaning of his bestowal on earth, he can at least comprehend the fellowship of his mortal sufferings. No man can ever fear that the Creator does not know the nature or extent of his temporal afflictions.

We know that the death on the cross was not to effect man's reconciliation to God but to stimulate man's realization of the Father's eternal love and his Son's unending mercy, and to broadcast these universal truths to a whole universe.

[from The UBook]


If you don't understand this I can't help you !!!



Cheers
 
To willow the wip:


Any time you quote from The UBook there is nothing but love, kindness and mercy.
Any time you quote from your sources there is nothing but hate, unkindness and savagery. Just who is your Father ???? Is it him ?...


The Ubook is not biblical its a 19th centry book, the bible was written long before the Ubook we reject any other book apart from the Bible.

The Zodiac found in the Urantia Book this is occultic.

http://www.equip.org/free/DU164.htm

A founding Fellow of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal and a regular contributor to The Skeptical Inquirer, Gardner generally focuses his skeptical eye on occult phenomena: astrology, ESP, channeling (mediumship), "new energies," and other forms of quackery and pseudoscience (and yes, he often includes creationism among his targets). His Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science, written over 40 years ago, has been of value in exposing movements such as Flat Earthers, pyramidologists, dowsing, Dianetics, radionics, homeopathy, and Reichian orgone energy.

Behind his jabs at the Christian faith (though it’s usually "young earth" creationism that raises his ire) stands a confirmed naturalist who asks how channeled revelations square with science. Unlike Christians, rationalists do not believe demons exist, so they cannot dismiss the difficulties posed by occult phenomena or The Urantia Book as manifestations of demonic power. In other words, humanists don’t have a "Satan of the gaps," as Christians do, to account supernaturally for problematic occult experiences. Their very rationalism forces them to seek natural explanations, often long after evangelicals have despaired of earthly answers and begun talking about demons.

While I certainly believe in supernatural agents, both demonic and divine, who influence people on earth, my point is that we theists sometimes give up too easily. In this case it took a hard-core skeptic to unwind methodically the tangled origins and material fallacies embodied in The Urantia Book (UB). His chronicle is a landmark exposé of the origins of the Urantian movement.

Gardner’s interest in the UB was aroused in part by the long-maintained secrecy regarding its true author. He also describes himself as "fascinated by the enormous amount of science in the UB" (p. 181). Most channeled writings are deadly dull and palpably untrue where they touch on scientific matters. The UB is an exception. Its discussions of cosmology and anthropology are more erudite, and its errors and internal contradictions more difficult to detect.

The UB claims to be authored by supermortal, celestial beings through an unnamed "human subject" who conveyed messages from them in his sleep. A prominent Chicago psychiatrist, Dr. William S. Sadler, privately transcribed the contactee’s messages, and in 1923 assembled a small group to study the messages while hiding the contactee’s name and identity. The supermortals described themselves as extraterrestrials from other planets and star systems. Their name for earth is Urantia; they claim to have been observing and guiding the evolution of our planet (Adam and Eve, we learn, were actually transported here from the planet Jerusem). They say Christendom has distorted the true nature and teachings of Jesus Christ, and the time is now ripe for mankind to receive this "epochal revelation."

Sadler’s study group submitted written questions to the contactee and eventually came to believe the Urantia Papers were a new revelation from God, on a par with the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Inner circle members funded its printing, and the first edition finally appeared in 1955, weighing in at 2,097 pages.

Looking for the human sources behind the UB, Gardner zeroes in on two former Seventh-day Adventists: Dr. William S. Sadler and his brother-in-law, Wilfred Custer Kellogg, who lived with the Sadlers in Chicago. The unnamed contactee was Wilfred (a nephew of W. K. Kellogg, the cornflake king), an identification Gardner first made in 1991. In Urantia: The Great Cult Mystery, he sets forth the full range of evidence to support this conclusion.

Gardner begins with Dr. Sadler, who taught at Chicago’s McCormick Theological Seminary. (The UB reflects that school’s liberal views on the dating and origin of the biblical texts.) Sadler was previously employed by John Harvey Kellogg, an eccentric Adventist doctor who became skeptical of biblical miracles and the Atonement (93). Sadler’s own theories about eugenics and racial inferiority seem to surface in the UB, and Gardner believes "too much material in the UB comes straight out of early books written by Sadler" (283).

Seventh-day Adventism looms large in Gardner’s narrative, which notes that the UB contains Adventist doctrines (e.g., soul-sleep and Jesus being Michael the Archangel) and even the names of famous Adventist leaders. Later in the book, Gardner admits that he himself was an Adventist in his youth, for about one year (181). Thereafter, Adventist offshoots have continued to fascinate him.

Eventually, Gardner comes to the science of the UB. If the UB really were an extraterrestrial revelation, it should accurately describe our universe. It fails this test miserably. The UB claims the universe is over one trillion years old; most scientists date it at about 15 billion years (186). The temperature it assigns to the sun’s surface is off by thousands of degrees (190); it falsely says that Mercury keeps the same face towards the sun (196). The UB teaches that humans have 48 chromosomes; it should be 46 (217). Atoms supposedly cannot possess more than 100 electrons; this "limit" was broken in 1955, as any periodic table will confirm (214).

Once or twice Gardner slips up. The UB claims our solar system was formed with 12 planets, and Gardner notes the improbability of "three undiscovered planets beyond the orbits of Neptune and Pluto" (189). He apparently missed its statement that the fifth planet between Mars and Jupiter "fragmentized" and became the asteroid belt (UB, 658). This leaves two undiscovered planets, not three. He also refers to gamete reproduction as mitosis, instead of meiosis (217).

Like a good storyteller, Gardner saves the best for last. A lengthy chapter reveals scads of plagiarisms in the UB, originally discovered by Urantian believer Matthew Block. In 1992, Block wrote a paper on "bibliographic" sources used in the UB. The paper reveals shameless plagiarism of earlier works, sometimes word-for-word but more frequently thought-for-thought. Gardner develops these discoveries in parallel-column comparisons and points out that Seventh-day Adventist founder Ellen White had a bad problem with plagiarism (he devotes a full chapter to this), as did Sadler occasionally (290).

The final chapters disclose important recent developments. We learn that since the 1980s the Urantia Foundation has taken legal action against organizations that used the word "Urantia" in their name, even if a group was friendly to the UB itself. The biggest blow occurred in 1989 when the Urantia Foundation "denied the [Urantia] Brotherhood the right to sell the UB, or to use the name ‘Urantia’ or the three-circle logo" (396-97). The Urantia Brotherhood  founded in 1955 with the Foundation’s approval by 36 members of Sadler’s study group, and located at the address of the Foundation  then disbanded and reorganized under another name. The Foundation seems to have become very territorial.

The idea of copyrighting a "divine revelation" was directly challenged in 1990, when Kristen Maaherra distributed free Folio Infobase copies of the UB on computer diskette. (It is now available at several Internet sites.) The following year the Foundation sued her, claiming copyright infringement. Maaherra countersued, arguing that the copyright renewal for the UB was invalid, since copyright can only be granted to human authors. A federal district court agreed, striking down the copyright to the UB in February 1995. The case is now on appeal.

We are also told of a virtual explosion of alleged contact with UB deities over the past decade. Urantians claim they have increasingly been contacted with end-times messages from the celestials. Like other occult movements such as Theosophy, the Urantian revelation provided the seedbed for a new crop of contactees or "Transmitter-Receivers" (Urantian term) to appear later and diversify into new submovements.

In the absence of a good Christian response to the UB in English, this volume by Martin Gardner will have to stand as the thinking person’s premier exposé on the Urantia movement.

â€â€Eric Pement

http://www.watchman.org/profile/urantiapro.htm

Urantia DOCTRINE

Cosmology: The cosmos are roughly divided into five concentric rings. The center ring is the Isle of Paradise, the dwelling place of God20 and the source of all existing things; the Master Universe revolves around this stationary Isle.21 Surrounding the Isle of Paradise in seven bands are the Havona, billions of perfect worlds that serve as the pattern for creation.22 Surrounding the Havona are dark gravity belts which insulate the Havona and Isle of Paradise from the developing superuniverses. Outside the gravity belts are the seven superuniverses of evolutionary creation; our superuniverse is approximately 500 million light-years in diameter.23 Beyond the superuniverses are four uninhabited outer space levels; some celestial beings speculate that an unrevealed creation may begin outside the fourth outer space level.24

The Trinity: The URANTIA Book speaks of a Trinity of Trinities; the most important is the existential Paradise Trinity consisting of the Universal Father, the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit. The second Trinity, currently in the process of universe realization to become gods, is the experiential Ultimate Trinity; it will consist of the Supreme Being, the Supreme Creator Personalities, and the Architects of the Master Universe. The third Trinity, currently in the process of actualization, is the experiential Absolute Trinity: it will consist of God the Supreme, God the Ultimate, and the "unrevealed Consummator of Universe Destiny."25

God the Father: The URANTIA Book teaches, "The Universal Father is the God of all creation, the First Source and the Center of all things and beings. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder."26 The Universal Father is a personal being who should be understood as the father of humanity: "as a father, a real father, a true father, loves his children, so the Universal Father loves and forever seeks the welfare of his created sons and daughters."27 The ultimate aspiration of humans is to know and be like the Universal Father.

Jesus Christ: The Eternal Son, along with the Universal Father, created all the "only-begotten" Creator Sons who, as part of the Order of Michael, are responsible for the creation of humanity.28 Before incarnating on this planet as Jesus of Nazareth, Jesus was Michael of Nebadon, the 611,121st original concept of the Paradise Father and Son.29 Despite being the "original concept," Jesus was not the Eternal Son, but rather he possessed "additional power and authority, for he not only personifies the Eternal Son but also fully represents and actually embodies the personality presence of the Universal Father."30

Part IV of The URANTIA Book ostensibly covers, in addition to its elaboration of the gospel accounts, a record of the "lost years" of Jesus' life. Papers 123–28 go year-by-year through Jesus' childhood, even examining the events of each day he spent in the Temple at the age of twelve.31 It also explains that Jesus went to Rome as the tutor to the sons of a wealthy merchant from India.32

The URANTIA Book also fills in details about the resurrection. After the crucifixion, Jesus underwent "the Morontia Transit," in which the resurrected morontia form and personality of Jesus [i.e., the spirit of Jesus without the physical body] went forth from the tomb and met with Gabriel and other celestial administrators.33 His initiation into the morontia world [the next level of existence] normally takes about an hour, but was twice interrupted because Jesus wanted to explain to his followers what was happening.34
Sin and Atonement: An understanding of what The URANTIA Book teaches about sin is vital to understanding what it teaches about Christ and the Atonement.

According to the Jesus of The URANTIA Book, "Evil is the immature choosing and the thinking misstep of those who are resistant to goodness, rejectful of beauty, and disloyal to truth. Evil is that which is dark and untrue, and which, when consciously embraced and willfully endorsed, becomes sin."35 A person can overcome evil simply by choosing to do good: "There is mighty power in the expulsive energy of a new and sincere spiritual affection. And again I say to you, be not overcome by evil but rather overcome evil with good."36

Because avoiding sin is simply a matter of choice, the crucifixion did not accomplish the forgiveness of sin.37 Instead, humans must work to emulate the example of love and faith in God shown by Jesus. This striving for perfection is worked out over many lifetimes on many planets. A URANTIA follower states that "the entire stellar itinerary of our inconceivably long evolutionary journey toward spirit status [includes] graduate courses on the billion worlds of Havona. . .such is the long, alluring path to Paradise."38


BIBLICAL RESPONSE


Humans are not to accept a new gospel from spirit beings,39 but instead should rely on the Bible as the authoritative source of truth.40

Jesus is not merely an example of God, but rather is the one in whom the Godhead fully dwells.41

Humans will not be reincarnated many times, but instead live only once before facing judgment from God.42 Furthermore, salvation does not come through anything that humans can do, but instead is given only through the unmerited grace of God.43
 
A Review of Martin Gardner's book,
“Urantia, The Great Cult Mysteryâ€Â

-by Norm Du Val - 6/10/95

I was recently reading Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason", and was struck by the contrast between Paine's style of writing in his attempt to prove his case, and Martin Gardner's style of writing. The only debate tactics or techniques that Paine used were those of calm logic, reason and eloquence. He clearly did not feel threatened by the material he was debunking. Gardner's debate style on the other hand is a scorched earth, use any tactics, win at any cost style. As evidence of this, review his paper "The Great Urantia Mystery", from the Skeptical Inquirer, Winter 1990. At first I thought that particular article might have been an aberration, but in a later comment in the Letters to the Editor section of the Skeptical Inquirer, Martin referred to it as a Mencken type attack after one H. L. Mencken, who apparently went to the Don Rickles School of Journalism. It's too bad it has to be an attack at all, and one wonders why Martin feels the need to attack, especially so viciously. It's sad that he couldn't figure out how to use a Thomas Paine type attack, if attack be needed.

But Martin has a problem of which we all should be aware. His job is to debunk, and most of his targets have been easy. This time however, he has chosen a religious target. If he can't debunk The Urantia Book to his satisfaction, where does that leave him? It leaves him faced with the prospect of having to change or modify his own belief system, if he is intellectually honest. Subconsciously perhaps, Martin is trying to preserve his own belief system, and the best way to do that is to attack that which is perceived as threatening. The Urantia Book is a threat to Martin, just as Jesus' teachings were a threat to many. Nor is Martin unique in this. It is the same with many, be they Christians, Moslems, Jews, Deists, Urantians or Atheists. Most people with strong religious views will do almost anything to avoid having their belief system altered. Martin is like Saul, going after the new Christians with a vengeance. He simply must succeed in debunking The Urantia Book. His present belief system depends upon it.

Martin's book is all over the map. He flops from Adventism to OAHSPE, from Mormonism to constipation and masturbation. For the most part, it's an unfocused, scatter-gun approach to a serious critique of The Urantia Book. In short, it's a mess.

I have tried to cover as many of Martin's mistakes, misstatements and misrepresentations as possible, but the sheer number of them makes the task difficult. In some cases, I am not knowledgeable enough to deal with a suspected problem, but it can be inferred from the large number of found problems that the balance of the book is similarly flawed.

Martin has a penchant for making bald unsupported statements. He speculates wildly. He loads sentences with enormous spin, faulty assumptions and distortions. In this review, I will try to hit the high spots, the glaring problems with his book. I know those with expertise in other areas will also want to comment on Martin's musings.



If interested ,the rest of this review can be read here http://www.freeurantia.org/mgreview.html



P.S. Martin Gardner is a total wacko and his books appeal to those people who can't think for themselves !!!




Cheers
 
so let me get this streat so you have to read the urantia book that would suggest that you cant even do some reasearch on it mmmmm

seems like you controdict your self their
 
CM,

Martin has a penchant for making bald unsupported statements. He speculates wildly. He loads sentences with enormous spin, faulty assumptions and distortions.

Don't you find it hypocritical that Norm Du Val would say this about Martin's book when the UBook does the same thing, only to the extreme?

P.S. Martin Gardner is a total wacko and his books appeal to those people who can't think for themselves !!!

Nothing like an ad hominem rebuttal to prove someone wrong.

So, back on topic:

Man has an immortal soul as is given in the Bible. The UBook states otherwise, but there has been no reason given as to why anyone should believe anything the UBook says. And indeed, none can be given.

There is also no contradiction between God's love and his justice, in that he would send people to hell for eternity. This is perfectly compatible with God's character and nature.
 
Free said:
[[

There is also no contradiction between God's love and his justice, in that he would send people to hell for eternity. This is perfectly compatible with God's character and nature.
You're correct, God will 'not'....let people suffer for eternity.
They will be punished just for the sins they personally committed, or caused others to commit.
 
"Justice", to many of the people on this board, means going to hell for eternity, for the "sin" of stealing a loaf of bread to feed a hungry child.




:D
 
rebazar said:
"Justice", to many of the people on this board, means going to hell for eternity, for the "sin" of stealing a loaf of bread to feed a hungry child.




:D

What has this to do with the origin of the doctrine of the immortal soul?
 
rebazar said:
"Justice", to many of the people on this board, means going to hell for eternity, for the "sin" of stealing a loaf of bread to feed a hungry child.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee ....seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God", (Hosea 4:6).
 
The immortality of the soul doctrine was basically adopted in to Hellenistic Judaism from the pagan Greeks. It infiltrated its way in around the time between the old and new testaments. If you read the Apocrypha, you will find both annihilation (the correct biblical interpretation of the nature of man) and Greek dualism (that the soul is immortal and can be tormented forever)

This belief became prominent throughout Christ and the apostles time. This is why both Christ and Paul emphasised the resurrection. All through the epistles Paul emphasises resurrection as the hope of eternal life. Why? Because he was preaching to Gentiles most of whom were Romans and Greeks who believed in the immortality of the soul. That is a telling argument in favor of the conditional mortality of man.

As for the 'souls' under the altar in Revelation. Please remember that it is a symbolic book with much metaphor and allegory. Do you honestly think that all the souls who have ever died are under an altar in heaven? This text is talking about martyrdom and desire for God to avenge His people. Notice that the blood is under the altar. In the OT the blood which symbolized the life force of a being, was collected underneath the altar. It represented sacrifice. Abel's blood 'cried' out to God, but we know it didn't literally cry out to God. This is merely OT allegory, as is the text in Revelation where the concepts of' blood under the altar' and 'blood crying out' are taken from.

For that matter, most of the phrases people take out of context to mean eternal punishing for eternity are all OT texts which were used to show the complete annihilation of God's enemies.

The Bible preaches the wholism of man and eternal life only in resurrection, not immortality. If people would just study the scriptures rather than taking a few texts out of context, we wouldn't have confusion today like we do.
 
guibox,

If people would just study the scriptures rather than taking a few texts out of context, we wouldn't have confusion today like we do.
Speaking of context:
Do you honestly think that all the souls who have ever died are under an altar in heaven? This text is talking about martyrdom

Why do you ask a question that ignores the context of the passage and then answer your question in its proper context? The souls under the altar are those of people who have been martyred. This would naturally preclude the idea of "all the souls who have ever died."

Also, just because much of Revelation is allegory and metaphor doesn't mean that the souls under the altar are symbolic of something else. These souls dialogued with God, received white robes to wear, and were told to wait until all those who were to be martyred were martyred. There is no reason to interpret it as OT allegory.

Notice that the blood is under the altar.

What blood?

The Bible preaches the wholism of man

What do you mean by "wholism"?

Rom. 2:5-9, "5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek."

1 Cor. 15:52-54, "52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory."

Note that this is speaking of the body, the flesh.

2 Tim. 1:10,"but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."

This belief became prominent throughout Christ and the apostles time. This is why both Christ and Paul emphasised the resurrection.

You will notice in Matt. 17 when Jesus is transfigured that both Moses and Elijah appear with Christ. Also, just because the immortality of the soul was found in pagan Greek culture does not mean that it is wrong or unbiblical.