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Other voices

K2CHRIST

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Prayer - ask we like to say - is communication with God. So is communication all about someone giving us something? That is, do we only talk to God so that He might "Grant" us something?

Usually it's through a prayer-grant process such that you will be able to speculate a pattern how your prayer would be granted. However faith still plays a large part, as the "grant" comes from both how strong your faith is, and how close you can be to God at the moment of your prayer. This usually works for Christians/believers only (as long as faith plays a part of the process).
If say you were king. Perhaps people would look at you only as a way to get things from. As king you might sometimes grant them their requests, but are they ever going to be your friend if they only came to you so that you might "Grant" them something. Ok, that might be the king servant relationship, but there is a relationship that God promotes, that is far more than that!!!

There were some that were called the friend of God. There were some that it was written that He loved. There are things written about some being like the bride, and as for me and my wife we talk about things that don't involve me "granting" her things. We talk, but if she wants something she can go get it and take from our joint possessions.

Now unlike a king or leader of this world, the Lord can be and is in all places. He is able to have a personal relationship with all people who wish for it, and as a person, even though Jesus Christ is the King of kings, He likes the personal relationship. What does He say?

Is 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow"

Does the above verse give you the impression that prayer is about going before the king so He may grant you something, or does it give you the idea that you need to listen to what He has to say concerning your thinking? Does it give you the impression that prayer is in the pattern of you requesting and Him giving, or does it give you the impression of you putting forth your ideas and listening to what He has to say about them? If God just a wish machine there to give you what you want, or is He the Teacher who we need to be taught by?

Too often the church, it's teachers, it's leaders, it's pastors, and it's 'wise men' have given people the wrong impression of God!!! And I am not talking about "Hawkins". This is wrong impression of God is constantly put out there, and so people honestly get this wrong impression and think it is correct. It is not what the Bible says. It is not what Isaiah was trying to get across. Isaiah present a God that is going to teach you and give you instructions, not a king that you seek only if you really need something.

Is 30: 20,21 ... He your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher. Your ears will hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it," whenever you turn to the right of to the left.

So my friends, Isaiah wrote this because this was how it was between Him and the Lord. The Lord was His Teacher. The Lord gave Him instructions. Yeah, God could get you things, but it was not about that! Prayer is not God granting you things, but a conversation with the Teacher. So what is your relationship Him like? How do you think it should be?

The Holy Spirit once told me, "

IS IT BETTER FOR CHILDREN TO ‘TALK TO’ OR ‘LISTEN TO’ THEIR FATHER?

So what do you think? Is it better that you just go tell God what you want, or is it better to seek the Lord for what He has to say to you and listen? And if reasoning and listening to the Lord is better, what spirit promotes just seeking God for what you want?

There should be a pattern when talking to the Lord. It is something like you saying, "Lord, there is something that seems to me to be a problem. What do you have to say about it?" --- then you listen! Try that pattern and see if it doesn't change your life.

Prov 5:1 My son, give attention to my wisdom, Incline your ear to my understanding

Yeah, that is it. That is the pattern of prayer we need to have. Give attention to His wisdom, and incline your ear to His understanding, just like it is written. It is not about the "Grant" it is about His wisdom.
 

chessman

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Yahweh appeared to Solomon at Gibeon in a dream at night, and God said, “Ask what I should give to you.” Then Solomon said, “You have shown great loyal love with your servant David my father, as he walked before you in faithfulness and in righteousness and in uprightness of heart with you. You have shown for him this great loyal love, and you have given a son to him who is sitting on his throne as it is this day. So then, O Yahweh, you are my God. You have made your servant king in place of David my father though I am a young boy. I do not know going out or coming in. Your servant is in the middle of your people whom you have chosen; a great people who cannot be counted or numbered because of abundance. Give to your servant a listening heart to judge your people, to discern between good and bad, because who is able to judge this, your difficult people?” The word was good in the eyes of the Lord that Solomon had asked this thing. And God said to him, “Because you have asked this thing and you did not ask for yourself a long life and you did not ask riches for yourself and you did not ask for the life of your enemies, but you have asked for yourself the ability to make wise judgments; behold, I do hereby do according to your word. I hereby give you a wise and discerning heart; there was no one like you before you, nor afterwards will one like you arise. Too, what you have not asked I give to you: both riches and honor, so that no man among the kings will be like you all of your days. If you will walk in my ways by keeping my statutes and my commandments, as David your father walked, then I will lengthen your days.”
1 Kings 3:5-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Kings 3:5-14&version=LEB

Chances are, when Yahweh desires to speak with you He will do so.

Chances are, if you ask Yahweh for something and that something is for your intention to better serve His people, that something will be granted. Plus Lagniappe!
 

K2CHRIST

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I like it when the Lord ask what I think, or what I want, but it was never about what I want and think. It is about the relationship between a person and the Lord, or in other words; it is about the personal relationship between you and the Lord!

Since it is a person and the Lord their God, wisdom is obtain by listening to Him. He once explained to me, "Karl, what do you see on a face? Eyes? A nose? Lips? But ears are on the side of the head. So why do people think seeking My ears is seeking My face?"

Jesus came asking if you have ears to hear not whether you have a mouth to speak. Yet have you too not seen where the church often makes it about seeking His ears with your mouth? That is not what He did. Still God is fair. So if you listen to Him is He not then going to listen to you? It is only fair that if you listen to someone then they should listen to you, and God tends to be more than fair.

Did not king Solomon listen to the Lord? Wise Solomon knew that wisdom came from the voice of the Lord, so he listened, and wrote things like:

Prov 2: 6 For the Lord give wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding
Prov 8: 1 Does not wisdom call, and understanding lift up her voice?
Prov 4: 4,5 Then he taught me and said to me, "Let your heart hold fast to my words; Keep my commandments and live; Acquire wisdom! Acquire understanding! Do not forget not turn away from the words of my mouth"

So king Solomon went to God to listen, and then the Lord being fair, asked Solomon what he wanted. Get it in the right order. Seek the Lord's face which does not mean His ears, but His mouth, because that is where knowledge and understanding come from.

Have we not read Jn 15:7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

Note that first you must abide in Him and His words must abide in you. That is you need to listen to His voice and live by listening to every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Then you my ask whatever you wish and it will be done for you. That is to say, that God comes first. And if you do that; put Him first, listen to Him, make your life about doing that, then He, being fair, will listen to you and what you wish will be done.

Yet what do we do, we first go to God to tell Him to heal our wounds, to fix our marriages, to give us more finances, and so on and so on. Then because He even then sometimes listens to us and wishing to glorify the Son, God does miracles, then when we get that we turn away from Him and never wind up seeking Him or His voice. Which just makes us more guilty before Him. We become like Chorazin and Bethsaida who saw the miracles and entered into judgment.

Mat 11:21 Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.

That was writing was preserved for all to learn from, and are will still not going to understand it is not about us getting God to grant us our wish but about us listening to Him and what God wants of us. Do that and see if then He doesn't listen to you and what you want. Then be wise and tell Him you want the wisdom, knowledge, and understanding to do the job He has for you, so that you might help others the best you can. That is what king Solomon did and was counted as the wisest man to ever live.
 

Randy

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Consider this, you have an illness that can manufacture any sensory form of information.

Such as:

Auditory
Visual
Taste
Touch
Smell
&Feel

These are the 5 + base senses we all take for granted, but my brain can create false readings.

Here's my question:

God has to be met by one of these sensors in order to communicate with me, but how can I trust my sense's when they can operate as invisibly as God.

Can you perceive the dilemma I face

God is supposed to communicate with me via one of my sensors invisibly.

A psychotic affected mind can manufacture sensory information invisibly.

And don't just say the usual ok, thank you.
None of the senses you state can see, touch, or feel the Holy Spirit. It would be Gods Spirit to your "spirit". I don't have a common frame of reference to your stated ailment. So I can't comment from that perspective. I do have experience with Jesus's answers to prayer via the Spirit. And evidence of the Spirit of Christ in me.

the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
 

K2CHRIST

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Doesn't the mind collect and process information? That is: the mind collects information from our nervous system and interprets it. That being the case a malfunctioning mind would be one in which it doesn't collect the information like it should or one that misinterprets the information it does collects.

There is a conclusion reached in the OP which seems incorrect, and that is that the mind makes up or generates the information it has instead of collecting and processing what it gets!!

When a person gets a dream or a vision, is that the mind making up information or it is the mind processing information? According to the Bible, Joseph got dreams from God and interpreted them. God gave both the king a dream and gave Daniel the interpretation because the king's mind couldn't understand it. According to the Bible the word of the Lord (and Jesus Christ is called the Word of God) appeared to Abram in a dream saying "...", and Abram believed it was the Lord speaking to him and that belief was counted to Abram as righteousness. So in those cases is was not the mind manufacturing information, but rather the mind collection and processing information.

Of course God is not the only spirit out and about. We know that our battle is with the dark forces of this world. So could "A schizophrenic mind" gets information from the wrong source, and strange and evil fearful source, and have trouble processing it because of the source?

We see that Jesus came to set the captives free, and according to the Bible there was a man and something about a "Legion" being removed from him and into some pigs and the man then being found in his right mind. Today, would we have said that a man like that had a "A psychotic affected mind"? Of course even in that state, that man then turn to Jesus and did not reject Him.

I am not sure we have it right to think the mind is wrong, but rather it may be the source of information coming to the mind that is wrong. So I recommend changing the source and seeking Jesus Christ.
 

Who Me

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Consider this, you have an illness that can manufacture any sensory form of information.

Such as:

Auditory
Visual
Taste
Touch
Smell
&Feel

These are the 5 + base senses we all take for granted, but my brain can create false readings.

Here's my question:

God has to be met by one of these sensors in order to communicate with me, but how can I trust my sense's when they can operate as invisibly as God.

Can you perceive the dilemma I face

God is supposed to communicate with me via one of my sensors invisibly.

A psychotic affected mind can manufacture sensory information invisibly.

And don't just say the usual ok, thank you.
How do you operate day to day, relating to people, listening to music, reading instructions and following them?

I'm assuming that you are not constantly in a psychotic state, seeing, hearing etc what is not there.
If that is true then you are able to learn about God in the same way the rest of us do, through reading, and listening.

Your problem is realy determining whether you are 'sane' or in a 'psychotic state'.

Hope this helps, if I'm wildly wrong in my assumptions please correct me.
 

sunflower

God has a sense of humor!
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Yeah, I tried that.

These are some things the voices have lead me to:

I let myself be robbed (That lines up with the bible)

I let myself be punched and had my nose broken (That lines up with the bible)

I gave away all my money once (That lines up with the bible)

I let people mistreat me generally (That lines up with the bible)

There are lots of other things the voices say that line up with the bible, some are ok. Other things are down right insane.
It works if you keep the context in which the scriptures were written in mind. By isolating words from their biblical context someone could justify anything. Bible stories, historical accounts, letters, etc. do give us messages when we don't isolate certain parts and interpret them trying to justify something. The whole message is where we get meaning, not simply the parts.
 
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id caution people against jumping to psyc labels. i mean...im regarded as a 'mental patient,' so...you may very well choose to ignore me (LOL). having said that...

psych labels are used to shut people up. hospitals, drugs, stigma, poverty...its how shrinks roll. notice that -some- mental health 'experts' want Trump out based on their DSM-V whatever nonsense? I mean...I want him impeached, too...but for valid, legal reasons, not this psychobabble jibber jabber.

try to address the person and what he is saying, preferably with Scripture and Christ-like love and compassion...not the "psychiatric bible."

I"m off to take another sedative. have a blessed day. :)
 

K2CHRIST

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It works if you keep the context in which the scriptures were written in mind. By isolating words from their biblical context someone could justify anything. Bible stories, historical accounts, letters, etc. do give us messages when we don't isolate certain parts and interpret them trying to justify something. The whole message is where we get meaning, not simply the parts.
Actually we get the meaning from the Lord! There is something written about the Scriptures not being for anyone personal interpretation but God's. So we have to be talking to and listening to Him! Then He puts it together for us, explains it to us, teaches us from it, and leads us into all understanding. That is what He does, and that is why it is written to not lean on your own understanding, and also why Jesus told the Jews they were searching the Scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life instead of coming to Him.

So don't start thinking the Scriptures is where you get the meaning. The Lord is where you get your meaning!!

He once told me:

WHAT TEACHER DOESN’T PUT A BOOK IN FRONT OF HIS STUDENTS TODAY; YET NOT JUST A BOOK BUT OVERHEAD TRANSPARENCIES, VISUALS, AND OTHER MATERIAL? FOR I TELL YOU TRULY, IF THEY ARE NOT LISTENING TO ME THEY ARE NOT MY PUPIL, THEY ARE NOT MY STUDENT; I TELL YOU TRULY, THEY ARE NOT MY DISCIPLE UNLESS THEY ARE HEARING FROM ME. SO DON’T TELL THEM TO READ THE BOOK, THEM TO TAKE THE CLASS!”

We have the One called the Teacher, and we need to seek Him for meaning!

He uses a book to teach us, but a lot more than that also. Have you not gotten dreams and visions. Have you not heard from Him and the angels He sends to minster to us?

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

Jn 5:39,40 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Is 42:18,19 Hear, you deaf! And look, you blind, that you may see. Who is blind by My servant

Deut 8:20 Like the nations that the Lord makes to perish before you, so you shall perish; because you would not listen to the voice of the Lord your God

Yeah, it all goes together, from front to back or back to front. The Scriptures tell us that we need to listen to the Lord, our Teacher!
 

K2CHRIST

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We need to be hearing spiritual voices!

That is because God is spirit and His sheep hear His voice, and because He is the King and has a kingdom which we are suppose to be seeking and that first! It is written that He sends His ministering angels to us, so we obviously should have heard and be hearing what He and His Holy angels have to say to us, and they are spirits.

They are not the only spirits about. There is both good and evil and we need to choose good. Yet what has a person chosen if they are not seeking God? It was that snake that said and still says, "Indeed did God say".

So we need to listen and check the spirits, and to check them you have to first be listening for them, don't you? See 1 Jn 4:1-3 - that verse says to test the spirit by finding out if they confess that Jesus Christ went to the cross. So you must first be able to hear what is being said.

Ok, there are two problems! Some are not listening [because of their lack of faith] and some are listening but not testing and discerning what they are hearing [because of their lack of wisdom].
 

Gazelle

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I understand your dilemma but really it is not much different than someone not suffering under your affliction. We are all afflicted at some point in our lives.

Anyone who needs to overcome an affliction needs to use the same tools as the other. Your affliction tends to divide the process and tries to complicate the healing. Satan uses many tricks.

You may have more difficulty in recognizing God's Voice from other voices you hear. But the solution is basically the same as all who wish to find or follow Christ must use: study His Word (the Bible) so that you know God's Will. His voice will not tell you to do anything that His Word doesn't tell you to do... meaning, if you can't find direction in the Bible, then don't do it, don't say it, don't believe it.

As for being robbed... you know, whether you allowed it or couldn't it doesn't matter. What any of us experience really doesn't matter= I've always said it is not WHAT I go through but HOW (and with WHOM) I go through it! If someone wishes to steal something from me, I trust God to replace it if I need it, and to let the person use it well. FAITH is the victory...

So... seek and trust. When you are most lucid is a good time to study and pray. Ask God always to remove the negative voices as you heal so that it is easier to hear just Him. :biggrin Work on those brain chemicals too--- the study of the brain is showing that we can create what we think (dwell) upon... "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus". "Whatsoever things are true, honest.... " "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Keep your eyes upon Jesus. For me, I continually trust God to take care of me, guide me, and even if I mess things up to fix what I have messed up! :biggrin
 
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i try not to rush to label people, in large part because my experiences w/ psychiatry before Jesus saved (is saving, will save) me were so miserable...but sometimes I think maybe a concerned -fellow Christian- could help you. see...


Szasz, the psychiatrist who wrote about psychiatry, once said something like "If you talk to God, you are praying. If God talks to you, you are Schizophrenic." ouch. he's basically saying...calling something "mental illness" is a way of controlling behavior, plus there's other stuff going on, too (social control, money, pills to be pushed, etc.). and yet...

personally, I do better -on- a moderate dose of a newer tranquilizer/antipsychotic than I did without it. I mean...I think the psych establishment needs to back off a lil bit. Everyone should be able to do a risks:benefits analysis and make a decision. for me, the benefits outweight the adverse effects, risks, etc., so...yup....

but I wouldn't wish my past misadventures in Mental Health, Inc. on -anyone-. having said that, even if going to a -psychiatrist- is not a viable option (I'd seriously recommend against it, btw), -psych drugs- can be prescribed by a caring family doctor...and they're usually a lot more straightforward, they keep an eye on adverse effects better, etc. and also....

im just piping in because of the mental health/illness talk. i dont know anyone on this board "in real time," and I'm not in the business of labeling people with ideas and outlooks, experiences, etc. that I don't share or care for with "mental illness," although I do also see how sometimes psych drugs can help some people, some times, for a while...

blah. rambling. just a side note, not trying to sound harsh or anything, but...especially since most of us here don't really know each other, I think it might be wise to avoid jumping to conclusions and labeling. people in pre-modern cultures often heard voices. some even had "spirit guides." I read somewhere...before cars and TV and such, human beings tended to be "in their heads" more, so "hearing" one's thoughts was more common, eccentricities were more tolerated, and...yeah. for all the so-called "freedom" we have in modern societies, it seems we're less tolerant, less free, and there's even less freedom of thought and belief than in years, generations past, and...

-that- scares me far more than any "mental patient" ever has. :)
 

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