[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence

[GodsGrace]

The answer is I don't know. How can I know what evidence will be sufficient for me to believe anything? I don;t know all of the evidence that is out there. Maybe there is evidence I don't know about. What evidence would be sufficient enough for you to believe Allah is the real God? When I am convinced by the evidence that will be enough. God knows what would convince me.

I missed your post, that is why I did not respond to it.

Matthew, Mark, Luke do not indicate that any of the apostles were at the Crucifixion, All mocked Jesus at the crucifixion so presumably John was not there either. Peter was far off. John says "the disciple whom He loved" was there with Mary. So probably not any were there but maybe John if you can somehow mesh the separate accounts.

My post asking about where the Apostles were when Jesus was being crucified had a specific reason.

When Jesus was crucified the only Apostle present was John, the youngest and maybe the bravest or most foolish.

The other Apostles...all 10 of them were in hiding because they were terrified that they would be next. Most probably they were hiding in the home of Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus. They lived within walking distance to Jerusalem---in Bethany.

A few days later....ALL the apostles returned to Jerusalem and were walking about normally and with no fear.

What do you think happened to remove the fear they had just a few days before? Going from EXTREME fear...to NO FEAR AT ALL.

 

[Clizby]

What do you mean?
You say that no one is saying that everything came from nothing.
This is EXACTLY what scientists are having a problem with.
If nothing cannot exist, then what was before?
Do you believe in a multiverse system?

I don't know how the universe began and neither do scientists. They have multiple hypothesis but they cannot demonstrate any of them with evidence. Again, the fact that we don't have an explanation for the universes beginning doe snot by default mean a god did it.

If nothing cannot exist, we have the same problem...
WHO or WHAT made the something?

We don't know. If you want to say that it was a god then you need to demonstrate that instead of asserting it without evidence.

Darwin's theory worked better with an always existing universe because there would have been an infinite number of years for change.

This is untrue. We see changes in biodiversity in millions of years, that is a fact that science can demonstrate.

Now there's a problem because the universe in 14 billion years old and not enough time is available for the chemical basis for life to come into being.

How can you possibly know that? Evolution is not a theory of origins but of diversity. Again, you are just saying because we don't know something a god had to have done it.

How do you know the universe is 14 billion years old? Science right? How can you trust it to be accurate if it is always changing as you say? Maybe someday we will find out that the universe has always existed per your arguments.

I understood from the article that they changed the DNA....

Here is another article...which BTW, we must wait for this to be published in a scientific journal and accepted by the peer group.

Scientists have created the world’s first living organism that has a fully synthetic and radically altered DNA code.

The lab-made microbe, a strain of bacteria that is normally found in soil and the human gut, is similar to its natural cousins but survives on a smaller set of genetic instructions.

The bug’s existence proves life can exist with a restricted genetic code and paves the way for organisms whose biological machinery is commandeered to make drugs and useful materials, or to add new features such as virus resistance.

In a two-year effort, researchers at the Medical Research Council’s Laboratory of Molecular Biology in Cambridge read and redesigned the DNA of the bacterium Escherichia coli (E coli), before creating cells with a synthetic version of the altered genome.

source: https://www.theguardian.com/science...rst-living-organism-with-fully-redesigned-dna

Even if this is not life as you define it, it does not mean that a God had to be the cause. That needs to be demonstrated.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know how the universe began and neither do scientists. They have multiple hypothesis but they cannot demonstrate any of them with evidence. Again, the fact that we don't have an explanation for the universes beginning doe snot by default mean a god did it.

We don't know. If you want to say that it was a god then you need to demonstrate that instead of asserting it without evidence.

This is untrue. We see changes in biodiversity in millions of years, that is a fact that science can demonstrate.

How can you possibly know that? Evolution is not a theory of origins but of diversity. Again, you are just saying because we don't know something a god had to have done it.

How do you know the universe is 14 billion years old? Science right? How can you trust it to be accurate if it is always changing as you say? Maybe someday we will find out that the universe has always existed per your arguments.

Even if this is not life as you define it, it does not mean that a God had to be the cause. That needs to be demonstrated.

We see change in biodiversity.
We see evolution within a species.
We do not see one animal becoming a different animal.

The eye presents a problem for evolution.
How did it evolve?
Were animals blind, totally, and then little by little over millions of years, they began to see?
And how did they get along before that?

Many problems with evolution.
But neither one of us is a scientist.
Can we stop discussing science and start discussing some proof for God's existance?

 

[GodsGrace]

P.S. Clizby

Darwin's book is called:

ON THE ORIGIN OF SPECIES

He DID write about how he believed species to have evolved.
He did mean to explain the origin of life.

But, I really don't care to discuss science anymore...
it's of no effect.

 

[Clizby]

I have told you where to find your answer and no, it is not "Who are you to question me". The answer to your question will require you to study the book of Job through Jewish authors. Here is a resource to get you on your way. After you study this, i will give you the second place to look.

Iyov/Job: A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized from Talmudic, Midrashic & Rabbinic Sources (ArtScroll Tanach Series): Rabbi Moshe Eisemann: 9780899060156: Amazon.com: Books

Iyov/Job: A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized from Talmudic, Midrashic & Rabbinic Sources (ArtScroll Tanach Series) [Rabbi Moshe Eisemann] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Iyov/Job: A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized from Talmudic, Midrashic &...

www.amazon.com

How badly do you want the answer? Are you willing to put the work in or are you only interested in gleaning what I've worked and struggled so hard for? You haven't shown any appreciation for Gods word so far and I've seen you misunderstand much of it already.

Look at it from my point of view. You seem frustrated because I do not have the same interpretation as you do. Christians disagree on every point of doctrine even on the all important soteriology. I can find many different contradicting doctrines of salvation, all claiming the Bible as their source of knowledge along with the Holy Spirits help. Who should I trust has the truth? How do I know? You have an interpretation of why God allows evil, many other Christians have a different answer and you both are claiming the same source, the Bible.

Can you tell me how I know who is telling me the truth about what the Bible means? Why should I trust your interpretation over another Christians or even my own? This is a legitimate question.

 

[Clizby]

We see change in biodiversity.
We see evolution within a species.
We do not see one animal becoming a different animal.

This is untrue and this is not really how evolution works. No species can become anything other than what its ancestry is. This is how evolution is predictive and can be falsified. If we ever find an animal that has bird and mammal traits that would falsify a major portion of the phylogeny tree. We have also confirmed that common descent is a fact. The problem is it took me about 6 months of study to understand all the evidence for evolution. It cannot be demonstrated in one forum chat.

The eye presents a problem for evolution.
How did it evolve?
Were animals blind, totally, and then little by little over millions of years, they began to see?
And how did they get along before that?

This has been solved by scientists and demonstrated how the eye evolved in different species.

Many problems with evolution.

None that you have brought up.

But neither one of us is a scientist.
Can we stop discussing science and start discussing some proof for God's existence?

You don;t have to be a scientist to understand the evidence science has found. It just takes study. I have no proof of Gods existence. If you have some then please present it.

 

[Clizby]

P.S. Clizby

Darwin's book is called:

ON THE ORIGIN OF SPECIES

He DID write about how he believed species to have evolved.
He did mean to explain the origin of life.

But, I really don't care to discuss science anymore...
it's of no effect.

Darwin is of no consequence in evolutionary theory anymore. Just because he might have been wrong does not mean that the modern evolutionary theory is false. Look at the evidence for evolution. It is there to find. Talk Origins and UC Berkeley have good explanations of evolution and why there are many facts supporting the theory.

 

[Clizby]

My post asking about where the Apostles were when Jesus was being crucified had a specific reason.

When Jesus was crucified the only Apostle present was John, the youngest and maybe the bravest or most foolish.

I will go with this but Matthew, Mark and Luke seem to contradict this claim that John was there.

The other Apostles...all 10 of them were in hiding because they were terrified that they would be next. Most probably they were hiding in the home of Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus. They lived within walking distance to Jerusalem---in Bethany.

A few days later....ALL the apostles returned to Jerusalem and were walking about normally and with no fear.

What do you think happened to remove the fear they had just a few days before? Going from EXTREME fear...to NO FEAR AT ALL.

The answer you want is that they believed Jesus was resurrected. Belief in the resurrection does not mean it happened. For me to believe this you need to demonstrate that the eyewitness accounts are credible and that Jesus was resurrected.

 

[stovebolts]

Look at it from my point of view. You seem frustrated because I do not have the same interpretation as you do. Christians disagree on every point of doctrine even on the all important soteriology. I can find many different contradicting doctrines of salvation, all claiming the Bible as their source of knowledge along with the Holy Spirits help. Who should I trust has the truth? How do I know? You have an interpretation of why God allows evil, many other Christians have a different answer and you both are claiming the same source, the Bible.

Can you tell me how I know who is telling me the truth about what the Bible means? Why should I trust your interpretation over another Christians or even my own? This is a legitimate question.

I'm actually not frustrated. I simply know that whatever anyone, including myself says to you, you'll find your own reason to refute it just like you've done above.

Matthew 7:6
New International Version
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

This is a true saying. You have not shown yourself responsible with Gods word and you have just shown your really not looking for truth because as you said to wondering when you asked this question, is that you already knew.

Let me ask you another question. If i know you will trample what I have learned, why would i share with you?

Again, i am not frustrated. I'm simply trying to live by the teachings of Jesus and he has told me to protect my pearls, and so i will continue to do so because being obedient to the teachings of Jesus has demonstrated itself to be the best way to live.

If you want to know what i believe in response to your question, i have given you my resources. Your a bright person, read it yourself.

 

[Clizby]

I'm actually not frustrated. I simply know that whatever anyone, including myself says to you, you'll find your own reason to refute it just like you've done above.

Matthew 7:6
New International Version
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

This is a true saying. You have not shown yourself responsible with Gods word and you have just shown your really not looking for truth because as you said to wondering when you asked this question, is that you already knew.

I bet if I called you a pig I would be banned. I am truly looking for evidence of a god. But you seem to think I am just supposed to accept what you say as true without using reason to evaluate it. If you have some evidence then please present it, if you refuse, then ok.

Let me ask you another question. If i know you will trample what I have learned, why would i share with you?

By trampling do you mean disagree?

Again, i am not frustrated. I'm simply trying to live by the teachings of Jesus and he has told me to protect my pearls, and so i will continue to do so because being obedient to the teachings of Jesus has demonstrated itself to be the best way to live.

Can you comment on my predicament as a non believer? Why should I believe you over another Christian?

 

[stovebolts]

I bet if I called you a pig I would be banned. I am truly looking for evidence of a god. But you seem to think I am just supposed to accept what you say as true without using reason to evaluate it. If you have some evidence then please present it, if you refuse, then ok.

If you used scripture that pertained to me, i would submit myself to it's authority.
Have you ever really studied this teaching? Why does Jesus use dogs and swine in this teaching? Do you understand the cultural meaning each represents?

Have you read the account of the woman from Canaan?

Matthew 15:25-27 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Why do you think this woman responded the way she did? She could have taken offence, yet she didn't.

By trampling do you mean disagree?

Hebrews 5:13 NIV
Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

This passage teaches us that those who are on the milk of the word do not understand the teachings about righteousness. You have not shown that you understand the milk of Gods word, so how are you to understand the pearls within Gods word? I will not cause you to further stumble. You should be grateful, much like the woman for Canaan when she sought the righteousness of Jesus.

Can you comment on my predicament as a non believer? Why should I believe you over another Christian?

You should not believe me over another Christian. You have created this predicament and only you can get yourself out of it. You can start by ernestly looking for truth in Gods word

Here is another trustworthy saying.

1 Corinthians 1:20-35 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of G,od the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

We cannot prove to you that Jesus rose from the grave, but we trust the first hand eye witnesses had to say about it. Perhaps our requirements are not as arduous as your requirements are but for those who have digested the milk and have moved onto the solid food in Gods word, we see God demonstrating His love and righteousness which is bound in mercy and grace to us and His creation on a daily basis.

Simply put, we preach Christ crucified because we have been filled with Gods Holy Spirit. This message we preach is foolish to the wise, and we understand that too.

 

[Clizby]

If you used scripture that pertained to me, i would submit myself to it's authority.
Have you ever really studied this teaching? Why does Jesus use dogs and swine in this teaching? Do you understand the cultural meaning each represents?

Have you read the account of the woman from Canaan?

Matthew 15:25-27 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Why do you think this woman responded the way she did? She could have taken offence, yet she didn't.


Hebrews 5:13 NIV
Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

This passage teaches us that those who are on the milk of the word do not understand the teachings about righteousness. You have not shown that you understand the milk of Gods word, so how are you to understand the pearls within Gods word? I will not cause you to further stumble. You should be grateful, much like the woman for Canaan when she sought the righteousness of Jesus.

You should not believe me over another Christian. You have created this predicament and only you can get yourself out of it. You can start by ernestly looking for truth in Gods word

Here is the issue. I can study the scriptures and have for many years and I will find many other Christians that will tell me the same as you have done here because I don't have the same understanding as they do. I guarantee that other Christians that claim the Bible as their basis of understanding have a different interpretation than yours. Why should this be if God is not the author of confusion? Can't you see this as an internal problem within Christianity? As I pointed out in an earlier post, even the doctrines of salvation are different and contradictory. Some say repentance is necessary some don't, some say baptism is necessary some don't, some don't believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus some do, some believe in universal salvation some don't and on and on. They all claim that they hear from God and are taking the teaching from the Bible. So if Christians cannot decide how we are saved how can it be trusted as a source of truth?

We cannot prove to you that Jesus rose from the grave, but we trust the first hand eye witnesses had to say about it.

Thanks. If you cannot show me that Jesus was God and rose from the grave fine. At least you are honest about it. But if you cannot show that the eyewitness accounts are accurate to me then you cannot know either unless you have special revelation from God.

Perhaps our requirements are not as arduous as your requirements are but for those who have digested the milk and have moved onto the solid food in Gods word, we see God demonstrating His love and righteousness which is bound in mercy and grace to us and His creation on a daily basis.

Simply put, we preach Christ crucified because we have been filled with Gods Holy Spirit. This message we preach is foolish to the wise, and we understand that too.

It is not foolish if it is true, it just has not been demonstrated to be true.

 

[stovebolts]

Why should this be if God is not the author of confusion? Can't you see this as an internal problem within Christianity?

When you ask this question, you wrongfully charge God with mans confusion including your own confusion. You see, you are very right in your observations within christianity. However, God is not the source of this confusion. Man is the source of this confusion and it's all men, including yourself as it doesn't simply pertain to Christians.

Thanks. If you cannot show me that Jesus was God and rose from the grave fine. At least you are honest about it. But if you cannot show that the eyewitness accounts are accurate to me then you cannot know either unless you have special revelation from God.

Please dont misunderstand my words to mean things i did not say. I can show you scripture that shows who Jesus is and that he rose from the grave. However, you do not accept scripture as proof.

I know you have heard of Josephus as well as Pliney and Tacitus and earlier i also quoted from the Jewish Supreme court on the crucifixion and miracles of Jesus. None of these satisfy your criteria for truth. Again, that is your right and you can impose your own belief on all of these things and we can't impose our belief upon you.

It is not foolish if it is true, it just has not been demonstrated to be true.

What is your criteria for using boolean logic? You state earlier an example of stopping a child from being raped and use boolean logic to conclude, or at minimum infer that God is evil. But when it comes to other matters such as the one above, boolean logic does not apply?

This creates confusion.

 

[GodsGrace]

I will go with this but Matthew, Mark and Luke seem to contradict this claim that John was there.

The answer you want is that they believed Jesus was resurrected. Belief in the resurrection does not mean it happened. For me to believe this you need to demonstrate that the eyewitness accounts are credible and that Jesus was resurrected.

For me the eyewitness accounts are credible.
Something had to have happened to give the Apostles the courage they had lost when Jesus died....Something had to have happened to take away their fear and make them able to go into the world and preach the gospel and be persecuted for it and to die horrible deaths for what they believed happened.

Christianity hinges on the resurrection...Paul himself states that if the resurrection is not true, then we are all lost.

If you can believe the Apostles and the legacy they left behind, which is the church of Jesus Christ,,,then you can believe that Jesus died and was resurrected on the 3rd day.

If you feel you cannot trust the Apostles and believe them to be liars and maybe crazy or maybe they might have had some great conspiracy which they were all able to keep,,,then I'm sorry you can't come to believe in God.

Our faith also depends on who Jesus was.
Was He a nice man?
Was He a crazy man?
Was He delusional?
Or was He God incarnate?

I'm sure everyone here will be praying for you to come to the light of God.

Blessings

 

[Randy]

I bet if I called you a pig I would be banned. I am truly looking for evidence of a god. But you seem to think I am just supposed to accept what you say as true without using reason to evaluate it. If you have some evidence then please present it, if you refuse, then ok.

By trampling do you mean disagree?


Can you comment on my predicament as a non believer? Why should I believe you over another Christian?

If you can not accept the testimony of Gen through Rev which is through many people over thousands of years what could one possibly add that would convince you otherwise?

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

What you should know is your own arm can't save you. Do you even believe in a afterlife?
If so what is you plan of life after the life of the body?
If not why are you asking about salvation - read the NT its a complete testimony

As for me on my deathbed it will be "Lord Jesus into your hands I commit my spirit"

 

[Randy]

God is not a carbon based life form. He is Spirit. Our 5 senses cannot detect Him or measure Him. Only in your own being, (spirit) can you sense the Spirit of God.

 

[Edward]

Not unless you can give evidence they happened.

Sorry I took a week to reply but something came up.
I have a slew of testimonies actually. I posted most of them un the Testimony forum. But with evidence huh? Let me see here, scripture says that in the mouth of two or three witnesses the truth is established. (which I doubt you would count as evidence), but There is a friend of mine who is a Brother in Christ, and he gave me a brand new bible one day, a NIV version. I usually read the KJV but he didn't, he had a NIV version also and wanted for me to have the same version so that we could bible study together over the phone, when his wife wouldn't let him out, lol. It's a nice Bible. A large bible, bigger than any other that I own. Leather bound. A bit of time passed and then a different friend/Brother in Christ came to visit and noticed my new bible. He picked it up to check it out and he noticed that it was an NIV bible. So he proceeded to tell me that the NIV bible has many missing verses in it when compared to other versions so it is not a good version to study.

Naturally, I asked if he knew which ones? So he had me get out my KJV and proceeded to look up quite a few verses and compare with the NIV, and he was right, there were many missing verses. We sat there looking up these missing verses for quite awhile until it started to get redundant, so he went home leaving me convinced that the NIV is not the best bible to read.

So I continued to use my KJV and only use the NIV when the Brother called who had gifted me the bible. Some time passed and then here on this forum someone started a thread about all the different versions and which one is best. So I chimed in with my information that I learned about the NIV. One of the Brothers here responded to my post and asked if I had a few references of missing verses in the NIV because he wanted to see for himself. So I said sure give me a few and I will.

IIRC, I remembered two of them, and of course I got out both versions of my bibles to double check that I had the verses correct and didn't write any mistakes...But those two verses were in there! So I gave my friend a call and told him I forgot exactly which verses were missing and could he give me the scripture references again. He gave a few of them and said he was at work and can't talk long. But I figured I had enough so said my good bye and let him return to work.

When I looked up the several verses that he gave me...they were all in there! What's going on here? I wanted to call him back and tell him I need more because those ones are in there, but I knew he was working and so didn't want to disturb him. So I googled it instead, missing verses in the NIV, and I got so many references! Way more than he showed me. I didn't get it, we had looked up a lot of them and it was true. So I sat there and looked up every single verse I found in Google about them. None of those verses were missing from my bible! Now this made me go (Tilt) like a pinball machine! I know that they were missing before and now were not somehow...? In frustration, I closed my NIV bible and pushed it across the table away from me. I needed to gather my wits here. I sank back into my chair and said, Lord, what's going on here? Have I lost my mind?

And my eyes wandered acoss the table to my NIV bible, and I looked at it...and right there as plain as day in front of me, the bible said in big gold lettering on the side, NKJV...?

Now wait just a minute here, I KNOW that bible was a NIV version. My buddy made a thing about to me saying he wanted me to have the same version as him! And my other buddy had made a thing about it has missing verses, so why is there a NKJV on my table? Maybe Richard left one here? I thumbed through it and it had my verses that were underlined or highlighted in it and so forth so I knew, this is my bible.

So I called the other buddy and asked him, what version bible did we look up missing verses in? And he told me, NIV. He prolly thought I was high or something, lol. I called the other buddy. What version bible did you buy me? ...NIV, why?

So there were two other people who can attest to this. And like I said, It is my biggest bible and the newest one so there is no possible way to have got it mixed up with another one. This bible was somehow changed from an NIV to a NKJV. And there are 3 of us who can testify to this!

The only way this could have changed is supernaturally. God did this for some reason. It is the only answer. And then I felt peace within my spirit and knew it was so. I still do not know why it was done, but I endorse the NKJV now, lol

Now uh, I don't expect that you will believe my testimony about it...and the two Brothers who can back me up on this...I can't just post their information on a public forum. That would be rude of me. But, I can ask both of these guys, if it is ok with them? (Neither are forum members here)...Plus...I wonder? Would putting you into contact with either or both of them, even make a difference to you? (I doubt it). But I will try if you think it might. One lives in Texas, the other in Colorado Springs...What say ye? Yes, try? Or no, you will not accept that?

Let me know. I'll make another post about another one...

And if by chance, you think I am lying, or that my friends would lie for me, then I might as well not even try. What reason would I have to lie about this? I have not asked for your credit card number. I haven't tried to sell you anything. There is no gain in this for me. So why would I lie about it?

 

[Edward]

How does giving us sufficient evidence violate our free will to choose to follow him?

You see, to seek God, you must first believe that He is there, which requires faith. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Before I gave my life to God, I could not see any evidence whatsoever. Now it is hard to miss. God will not play your games and be made a dog and pony show in the face of such arrogance. I did not make it this way, God did. So maybe you need to ask him that one your self.

 

[Edward]

How does my feelings for my wife prove a spirit exists?

Well that's just the fun way and the best way to do it because when you turn your heart and inner man towards your wife and hug her, the two spirits join and begin radiating at a higher frequency that is easily perceived!! Don't tell me you can't feel it with your wife! I would find it incredulous if you told me that you know not of your inner man and your outer man. I picked up on that as soon as girls got pretty for me, 14-15? lol. Hey...they are different...and I marveled at these different ones in wonder. In a way, it could be said that girls pointed my path to God through revealing a sweetness of spirit which could be felt by just being near them and that is not the flesh, it is from the spirit. Do you understand that...all emotions have feelings but not all feelings are emotions? Your inner man has feelings and your outer man does too.

There's two guys here in me brother, and the one that gets up and goes to work and playing the world game is your outer man/the flesh. He is not the same guy as hugs his wife, or sits alone quietly on a Saturday reading a book or contemplating, meditating. That is the inner man and spirit. don't be confused and think they are one. And also do not accidentally read or contemplate God with your outer man or else you will have no understanding of it. Do this from your inner man.

 

[Boaz]

I will go with this but Matthew, Mark and Luke seem to contradict this claim that John was there.

The answer you want is that they believed Jesus was resurrected. Belief in the resurrection does not mean it happened. For me to believe this you need to demonstrate that the eyewitness accounts are credible and that Jesus was resurrected.

How can you prove they are not reliable? Or reliable. Christians believe they are reliable because we trust the Bible as the Word of God. That means nothing to you, because you don't. Not believing the resurrection happened doesn't mean it didn't either. Why don't you prove to us that it didn't happen? I know. You can't. None of the things you want proven to you so that you can make up your mind can be proven to your satisfaction. They are by their very nature unprovable. But that doesn't mean they didn't happen or aren't true. What you are asking for is kind of like spitting in the wind, or fighting ghosts or spinning in a circle.