St. Mary . . .

[GodsGrace]

Again, Cleophas is not mentioned in this text. The James and Joses mentioned may or may not be Jesus' blood brothers. Could be different James and Joses. There's nothing to support this either way.

WIP,
In my post no. 180 I listed two links at the beginning.
One of them explains very well about the different Marys.
They're all interesting....

 

[Walpole]

Where does it say out of scripture that Jesus did not have brothers? It's very difficult, even considering the culture of that time, to know if the "brothers" spoken of are siblings or if those being spoken of are cousins...which could also be the case.

Scripture does say Jesus had brothers (and sisters). However, Scripture shows they were not uterine brothers. As I stated in previous posts here, the term "brother" in Jewish antiquity had a much broader meaning than a uterine or agnate sibling.

This link is interesting. It was written by Eusebius, a historian of the 4th century.

https://catholicproductions.com/blogs/blog/the-brothers-of-jesus-a-fresh-look-at-the-evidence

You may have posted the wrong link, as this is a blog post written by Brant Pitre, not Eusebius. Nonetheless, he affirms what I have been posting here.

This is also very interesting with POV from the ECF's, but not in a direct way:

https://christianity.stackexchange....-first-taught-the-perpetual-virginity-of-mary

Thanks for the link...lots of good quotations from the Fathers.

I never said he was that old !
But Mary was a very young girl...probably between 14 and 16. Joseph was much more mature. I'm not familiar with an age given to him,,,but he could have been even 30. We know that he was dead by the time Jesus was crucified in about 30 AD, although this means nothing by itself.

I guess I interpreted your words, "so much older", to mean he was an old man. If we use your age of 30 years old, even in antiquity it still made him a virile man.

It seems that the early fathers were not in total agreement on this question.
See this link:

https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/p/perpetual-virginity-dogmatic-status-and-meaning.php

Thankfully that's why the Church declares something dogmatically: When clarifying is needed as to what is or is not the faith of the Church.

Very good answer...

Thanks. There is another good reason which I omitted and which the Fathers used, that of the fulfillment of the prophecy of Ezekiel:

"Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. And he said to me, 'This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.'" (Ezekiel 44:1–2)

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture does say Jesus had brothers (and sisters). However, Scripture shows they were not uterine brothers. As I stated in previous posts here, the term "brother" in Jewish antiquity had a much broader meaning than a uterine or agnate sibling.

I agree that brothers could mean cousins.
Scripture does us the word brother in very specific cases, however.

I'm not willing to debate this because I feel we just can't know for sure. I do know that even using the Greek, it's difficult to know. Books have been written on this.

You may have posted the wrong link, as this is a blog post written by Brant Pitre, not Eusebius. Nonetheless, he affirms what I have been posting here.

It's the right link. Eusebius is spoken of,...he died about 1,600 years ago.

Thanks for the link...lots of good quotations from the Fathers.

I always try to find out what the ECFs taught, or thought.
Those before the Nicene Council of 325 AD. They were the closest to Jesus and the Apostles.

I guess I interpreted your words, "so much older", to mean he was an old man. If we use your age of 30 years old, even in antiquity it still made him a virile man.

Thankfully that's why the Church declares something dogmatically: When clarifying is needed as to what is or is not the faith of the Church.

Yes. I know this. I just don't agree with everything that is declared as dogma. Not that the CC cares what I think...

Thanks. There is another good reason which I omitted and which the Fathers used, that of the fulfillment of the prophecy of Ezekiel:

"Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. And he said to me, 'This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.'" (Ezekiel 44:1–2)

Great verse. Thanks for adding it....I've actually never heard this before.

Do you also believe the birth of Jesus was painless?

 

[stovebolts]

i was answering to a comment made by Joseph T:

Catholics believe that purgatory and heaven are "states of being", more precisely a state of being perfected, It is a state just like your present state of being human in a physical existence. Purgatory is but one such state, heaven is another.

What did i say to offend anyone? My statement is the truth isn't it?

The way you said that made the Catholics out to be following Pagan origins.

I understand that many Protestant views are geared toward dismantling and smearing Catholics and because of this, there are false statements that become false truths.

From what I have studied on Purgatory, it was carried over from Jewish theology, not pagan.. Jesus, Paul and the Apostles would have been versed in these theologies.

As WIP stated earlier, if you would like to start a study on Purgatory, please do so, but let's not sidetracked this thread with it.

Please keep this in mind. We will not create threads to prove another is wrong. We study to learn and grow. The real truth will be made known.

 

[stovebolts]

Sure...

John 19:25: “But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”

This Mary the wife of Cleophas (Clopas) is called the mother of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas in Matthew 13:55.

Matthew abbreviates this list by simply naming the oldest two, James and Joseph in Matthew 27:56 as this Mary’s (Cleophas) sons.

Ergo, when James, Joseph, Simon and Judas are called Jesus’ “brothers” in Matthew 13:55, this can not mean uterine siblings based on the fact that St. Matthew names a different Mary as their mother.



Once again, you cannot impose a 21st century Western nuclear family structure with our own use of “brother” to that of Jewish culture in antiquity. The term had a much broader use in antiquity.

ESV
Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

So the way you read Matthew 13:55, "his" is referring to Joseph and not "carpenter’s son".

This makes James ,Joseph, Simon and Judas the brothers of Joseph, the adopted Father of Jesus.

Correct?

 

[WIP]

But Mary was a very young girl...probably between 14 and 16. Joseph was much more mature. I'm not familiar with an age given to him,,,but he could have been even 30. We know that he was dead by the time Jesus was crucified in about 30 AD, although this means nothing by itself.

How do we know Joseph was dead? Is that in Scripture somewhere?

 

[GodsGrace]

How do we know Joseph was dead? Is that in Scripture somewhere?

It's not in scripture and I know we cannot go by what is NOT said.

However, it's pretty much accepted. If Joseph were alive, he would have been with Mary at the cross. He is never mentioned after Jesus becomes an adult. He's not mentioned as being in the upper room in Acts 2. The ECFs do not mention him and neither is he mentioned in any of the extra-biblical writings.

I'm posting this link because it explains this the way that I've learned it...

https://www.gotquestions.org/Joseph-Jesus.html

 

[billybalke]

ESV
Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

So the way you read Matthew 13:55, "his" is referring to Joseph and not "carpenter’s son".

This makes James ,Joseph, Simon and Judas the brothers of Joseph, the adopted Father of Jesus.

Correct?

Galatians 1:19: "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother."

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW AND CALVANIST

 

[JosephT]

ESV
Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

So the way you read Matthew 13:55, "his" is referring to Joseph and not "carpenter’s son".

This makes James ,Joseph, Simon and Judas the brothers of Joseph, the adopted Father of Jesus.

Correct?

Actually, no you are not correct.

The brothers, James, Joseph, Simon and Judas are likely nephews of Joseph the adapted Father of Jesus, cousins of Jesus Christ son of Joseph and Mary. Alpheus [Greek], or Clopas (Klopas or sometimes written as Cleophas) [Aramaic] is the brother of Joseph. Thus, Clopas' children, James, Joseph, Simon and Judas (Jude), are his sons. Mary the sister-in-Law of Joseph and Mary is the wife of Clopas. Married women were not distinguished by their father's name, rather their husbands; consequently "Mary of Clopas" seen in John 19:25 along side of Mary Magdalen is the wife of Clopas and mother of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas.

There are no blood related siblings born by Mary that can be identified in Sacred Scripture as sons or daughters of Mary of Joseph. All those identified as "brothers" or "brethren" are cousins, distant kin, Apostles or "spiritual brothers and followers of Christ".

JosephT

 

[ezra]

John J. Collins,

John J. Collins (born 1946) is the Holmes Professor of Old Testament Criticism & Interpretation at Yale Divinity School. He is noted for his research in the Hebrew Bible, as well as the apocryphal works of the Second Temple period including the sectarian works found in Dead Sea Scrolls and their relation to Christian origins.[1] Collins has published and edited over 300 scholarly works, and a number of popular level articles and books.[2] Among his best known works are the Between Athens and Jerusalem: Jewish Identity in the Hellenistic Diaspora (New York: Crossroad, 1983); Daniel in the Hermeneia commentary series (Minneapolis: Fortress, 1993); The Scepter and the Star. The Messiahs of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Ancient Literature (New York: Doubleday, 1995); and The Bible after Babel: Historical Criticism in a Postmodern Age (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 2005).

Collins was born in County Tipperary, Ireland, and attended high school in a boarding school run by the Holy Ghost Fathers in Cashel, Tipperary. After high school he joined the Holy Ghost Fathers and spent nine years with the order



Holy Ghost Father, member of Congregation of the Holy Ghost and of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, byname Spiritans (C.S.Sp.), a Roman Catholic society of men founded in 1703 at Paris by Claude-François Poullart des Places. Originally intended only for the training of seminarians, the congregation gradually took an active part in missionary work. Suppressed by the French Revolution, it was restored under Napoleon, but persecution kept it weak until 1848, when the Congregation of the Immaculate Heart of Mary merged with it, and Francis Libermann, a convert from Judaism, became its superior general. The congregation pioneered in the resumption of African missions in the 1800s. Besides its missionary efforts, it carries on educational and social works.


this is very deep in Catholicism. so for the most i disagree with your source as it does not line up with scriptures .with him saying Mary had no other children

 

[stovebolts]

Actually, no you are not correct.

The brothers, James, Joseph, Simon and Judas are likely nephews of Joseph the adapted Father of Jesus, cousins of Jesus Christ son of Joseph and Mary. Alpheus [Greek], or Clopas (Klopas or sometimes written as Cleophas) [Aramaic] is the brother of Joseph. Thus, Clopas' children, James, Joseph, Simon and Judas (Jude), are his sons. Mary the sister-in-Law of Joseph and Mary is the wife of Clopas. Married women were not distinguished by their father's name, rather their husbands; consequently "Mary of Clopas" seen in John 19:25 along side of Mary Magdalen is the wife of Clopas and mother of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas.

There are no blood related siblings born by Mary that can be identified in Sacred Scripture as sons or daughters of Mary of Joseph. All those identified as "brothers" or "brethren" are cousins, distant kin, Apostles or "spiritual brothers and followers of Christ".

JosephT

Please excuse me while I am trying to accurately comprehend and put the pieces together the way I understand Walpole explain it.

I like the way you explain your position and the way you take the time to correct any misunderstandings I or others may have.

 

[billybalke]

Actually, no you are not correct.

The brothers, James, Joseph, Simon and Judas are likely nephews of Joseph the adapted Father of Jesus, cousins of Jesus Christ son of Joseph and Mary. Alpheus [Greek], or Clopas (Klopas or sometimes written as Cleophas) [Aramaic] is the brother of Joseph. Thus, Clopas' children, James, Joseph, Simon and Judas (Jude), are his sons. Mary the sister-in-Law of Joseph and Mary is the wife of Clopas. Married women were not distinguished by their father's name, rather their husbands; consequently "Mary of Clopas" seen in John 19:25 along side of Mary Magdalen is the wife of Clopas and mother of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas.

There are no blood related siblings born by Mary that can be identified in Sacred Scripture as sons or daughters of Mary of Joseph. All those identified as "brothers" or "brethren" are cousins, distant kin, Apostles or "spiritual brothers and followers of Christ".

JosephT

Hi Joseph ---I don't believe the word "likely" is what we need here but rather "what saith the scripture?" Rom.4:3.

Please consider Gal.1:19

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Joseph ---I don't believe the word "likely" is what we need here but rather "what saith the scripture?" Rom.4:3.

Please consider Gal.1:19

Hello Brother,
If I'm understanding their position, I would venture to say a Catholic would reply something like this.

Brother in that verse does not mean a biological brother. Instead, they will fall back on what he has already written on James.

The way I see it, one would have to argue from Aramaic to settle this.

As a side note, my studies in Jewish culture in the way they understand family makes what they believe plausible. However, I am not a scholar and either way doesn't change my view of Jesus.

 

[Walpole]

John J. Collins (born 1946) is the Holmes Professor of Old Testament Criticism & Interpretation at Yale Divinity School. He is noted for his research in the Hebrew Bible, as well as the apocryphal works of the Second Temple period including the sectarian works found in Dead Sea Scrolls and their relation to Christian origins.[1] Collins has published and edited over 300 scholarly works, and a number of popular level articles and books.[2] Among his best known works are the Between Athens and Jerusalem: Jewish Identity in the Hellenistic Diaspora (New York: Crossroad, 1983); Daniel in the Hermeneia commentary series (Minneapolis: Fortress, 1993); The Scepter and the Star. The Messiahs of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Ancient Literature (New York: Doubleday, 1995); and The Bible after Babel: Historical Criticism in a Postmodern Age (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 2005).

Collins was born in County Tipperary, Ireland, and attended high school in a boarding school run by the Holy Ghost Fathers in Cashel, Tipperary. After high school he joined the Holy Ghost Fathers and spent nine years with the order



Holy Ghost Father, member of Congregation of the Holy Ghost and of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, byname Spiritans (C.S.Sp.), a Roman Catholic society of men founded in 1703 at Paris by Claude-François Poullart des Places. Originally intended only for the training of seminarians, the congregation gradually took an active part in missionary work. Suppressed by the French Revolution, it was restored under Napoleon, but persecution kept it weak until 1848, when the Congregation of the Immaculate Heart of Mary merged with it, and Francis Libermann, a convert from Judaism, became its superior general. The congregation pioneered in the resumption of African missions in the 1800s. Besides its missionary efforts, it carries on educational and social works.


this is very deep in Catholicism. so for the most i disagree with your source as it does not line up with scriptures .with him saying Mary had no other children

Apologies...I wasn't aware he was Catholic.

Feel free to either ignore him or offer a rebuttal to his and Meyers' research that in Jewish antiquity, family units were not exclusively nuclear as is the case with modern Western family structures.

 

[Walpole]

I agree that brothers could mean cousins.
Scripture does us the word brother in very specific cases, however.

I'm not willing to debate this because I feel we just can't know for sure. I do know that even using the Greek, it's difficult to know. Books have been written on this.



It's the right link. Eusebius is spoken of,...he died about 1,600 years ago.



I always try to find out what the ECFs taught, or thought.
Those before the Nicene Council of 325 AD. They were the closest to Jesus and the Apostles.







Yes. I know this. I just don't agree with everything that is declared as dogma. Not that the CC cares what I think...



Great verse. Thanks for adding it....I've actually never heard this before.

Do you also believe the birth of Jesus was painless?

Yes, I do believe the birth of Jesus was painless.

 

[Walpole]

Galatians 1:19: "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother."

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW AND CALVANIST

Galatians 1:19 validates the Catholic position and destroys any possibility that James is a uterine sibling of Jesus. I don't want to re-type what someone has already dissected...

---> http://shamelesspopery.com/st-jude-and-the-brothers-of-jesus/

 

[ezra]

Apologies...I wasn't aware he was Catholic.

Feel free to either ignore him or offer a rebuttal to his and Meyers' research that in Jewish antiquity, family units were not exclusively nuclear as is the case with modern Western family structures.

i googled him and school he attended -- i have no other resources on gemology i go by what the Bible says..

 

[Walpole]

i googled him and school he attended -- i have no other resources on gemology i go by what the Bible says..

Perhaps you can address the post in which he is referenced? Do you have a rebuttal? Do you have evidence that in Jewish / Semitic antiquity, families were in fact exclusively nuclear as our Western families are today?

 

[ezra]

Galatians 1:19 validates the Catholic position and destroys any possibility that James is a uterine sibling of Jesus. I don't want to re-type what someone has already dissected...

---> http://shamelesspopery.com/st-jude-and-the-brothers-of-jesus/

this is catholic based need independent outside source .this would be like giving the Baptist point of view only on the baptism of the Holy spirit

 

[Walpole]

this is catholic based need independent outside source .this would be like giving the Baptist point of view only on the baptism of the Holy spirit

Feel free to offer a rebuttal to what is written.