What's new
Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • We have just installed new software to help eliminate spam. If you experience any issues logging in or creating a new account, please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page and we will assist you. Thank you!
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

Kidron

Member
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
2,756
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
The reason you cant lose your salvation, is because its not yours to lose.
Its Gods, and its his to give.
It belongs to him.
He did it, he created "salvation", by manifesting himself as a man, through a virgin, then slaying his body on a cross & then resurrecting himself for your sins so that by all this, YOU could become his .

All of this, ......you had NOTHING to do with it.....so, get over it.
Get over yourself.
Get past your self righteousness, and stop trying to believe that your deeds have anything to do with what GOD did for you as a GIFT.
Once you get to that place of understanding, then you will have finally arrived at the perfect understanding of what Salvation is NOT.
Its NOT about you.
Its not about your church.
It not about your behavior.
Its not about Water Baptism or the 10 commandments.
Its all about the free gift of reconciliation that was PROVIDED FOR YOU FOR FREE., so stop trying to pretend that your silly church maneuvers or your good deeds one day and your flesh controlled life the next, could possibly have anything to do with saving you or keeping you saved.
Give all the credit to God for what he did and stop trying to give credit to yourself for what you cant even do for 24 hrs.
 

Javier

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
18,314
All of this, ......you had NOTHING to do with it.....so, get over it.
Get over yourself.
Get past your self righteousness, and stop trying to believe that your deeds have anything to do with what GOD did for you as a GIFT.
Once you get to that place of understanding, then you will have finally arrived at the perfect understanding of what Salvation is NOT.
Its NOT about you.
Its not about your church.
It not about your behavior.
Its not about Water Baptism or the 10 commandments.
Its all about the free gift of reconciliation that was PROVIDED FOR YOU FOR FREE., so stop trying to pretend that your silly church maneuvers or your good deeds one day and your flesh controlled life the next, could possibly have anything to do with saving you or keeping you saved.
Give all the credit to God for what he did and stop trying to give credit to yourself for what you cant even do for 24 hrs.
Unless I missed it, I'm glad that 'believing' is absent from your list of 'things that you didn't do, and can't do, to be saved'.

I'm in my 28th consecutive year of believing. With God's help I've been able to do that for much, much longer than I can do righteous things. Thankfully, that is the only thing that I can do to lay hold of God's gracious gift of justification/ salvation.
 
J

jocor

Guest
If one renounces his faith/belief in Messiah and goes back into the world, never to return, will he be saved?
 

OzSpen

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
4,737
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
If one renounces his faith/belief in Messiah and goes back into the world, never to return, will he be saved?
It is possible to commit apostasy for which there is no further repentance available according to Heb 6:4-6 (ESV) :

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt (emphasis added).
 

Javier

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
18,314
What does the author say belongs to salvation.....unbelief as you contend?

Then when you answer that, skip back a verse and see what the author says happens to 'ground' you are sure is not burned in the end.

You're poking around in another scripture that completely and plainly contradicts your contention that people are saved no matter what they do or believe after they first believe in Christ.
 

OzSpen

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
4,737
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
chessman,

Please do not distort what I wrote. I stated that it is possible to commit apostasy for which there is no further repentance available according to Heb 6:4-6 (ESV) :

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt (emphasis added).

The 'impossible' refers to those who 'have fallen away' and then cannot be restored 'again to repentance'.

Thus, it is possible to fall away from the faith and commit apostasy and then there is no further repentance available. That's what Heb. 6:4-6 (ESV) states.
 

chessman

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
4,653
Gender
Male
chessman,

Please do not distort what I wrote.
I distorted nothing. I just demonstrated how the sentence is speaking about what's impossible yet you stated what is possible using it. If you find something contradictory in Hebrews starting out a sentence with " it is impossible" versus you using the verse to state what "is possible", I agree. That's my point, it does seem like a distortion.

Maybe you should re-evaluated your doctrine based on it and "debate" the exegesis of the passage with others that see this passage differently. Who knows, we might be wrong about it's true message?

Heb 6 verses 4 thru 6 is literally one sentence that tells us things that are impossible using examples of hyperbolic/absurd language to do so.

Kind of like us saying; I'm so "hungry" I could eat a cow.

Kind of like Hebrews saying; I'm so "fallen" I could crucify Christ again.

Or; I'm so "fallen away" it is impossible to repent.

The author in the sentence tells us what is impossible, not what is possible. That's my point.

And in the context, he tells us why it's so absurd that endewelt people cannot repent. Why? Because God is not unjust.

Hebrews even says in the next verse how absurd his examples were by his statement; "we are convinced of you" and God is not so "unjust" to allow for it (someone NOT to be able to repent) and saying that this is why WE are speaking "in this way" (using such absurd language). I wonder who the "we" is? Him, The Word and the big H.S., maybe? You know, the triune God "enlightening" them in the first place.

How absurd is it for God to enlighten not just a believer who is "falling away" but a full bore unbelieving Christ persecutor, like Paul, then not allow them to repent when they fall again?

Luckily, it ain't so.

The 'impossible' refers to those who 'have fallen away' and then cannot be restored 'again to repentance'.
. I know. That's exactly correct and my point. It IS impossible to "fall away" and to not be able to repent. Why? Because that would mean God is unjust!

Do you think it is possible for someone to actually re-crucify Christ? I don't. I think it is as absurd as a person actually and literally having God's gift of The Holy Spirit inside of them, yet being unable to repent of the sin of "falling away".

Your first clue about this passage should be "It is impossible", not "It is possible".

Oh, and the author leaves you with; "God is NOT unjust".

Just exactly how unjust do you think it would be for a Father to not allow repentance from any son that truly asked for it? Especially since He's already enlightened them and gifted them with a seal and called them His sons, precisely for the purpose of drawing them to repentance when (not if) they "fall away".

For an example of distorting another's statement see:

your contention that people are saved no matter what they do or believe after they first believe in Christ.
I never said that, and he knows it. He just doesn't care that he misrepresents people's statements.

You're poking around in another scripture
Jethro Bodine, you need to "poke around" the actual Scriptures here more yourself.

You might discover that some things truly are impossible. Such as:
"it is impossible for God to lie"

Lie to who?:
"we who have taken refuge"

Why is this?:
So that we "may have powerful encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us,"

How powerful and present?:
"which we have like an anchor of the soul, both firm and steadfast, and entering into the inside of the curtain,

What curtain?:
The one "where Jesus, the forerunner for us, entered"

You know, the symbol for God dwelling with us.
 
Last edited:

OzSpen

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
4,737
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
I distorted nothing. I just demonstrated how the sentence is speaking about what's impossible yet you stated what is possible using it. If you find something contradictory in Hebrews starting out a sentence with " it is impossible" versus you using the verse to state what "is possible", I agree. That's my point, it does seem like a distortion.

Maybe you should re-evaluated your doctrine based on it and "debate" the exegesis of the passage with others that see this passage differently. Who knows, we might be wrong about it's true message?

Heb 6 verses 4 thru 6 is literally one sentence that tells us things that are impossible using examples of hyperbolic/absurd language to do so.
NT Greek uses no sentences as we understand in English.

Heb 6:4-6 (ESV) demonstrates that it is possible to fall away from the faith after being saved and there is no possibility of further repentance after committing such apostasy. It's a very destitute situation. I think we are talking past each other on this topic.
 

chessman

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
4,653
Gender
Male
NT Greek uses no sentences as we understand in English.
Who told you this? It's wrong. NT Greek most certainly does use sentence structures that are understandable in English.

http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/HTML_Common/greek_grammatical_terms.html


Heb 6:4-6 (ESV) demonstrates that it is possible to fall away from the faith after being saved and there is no possibility of further repentance after committing such apostasy. It's a very destitute situation.
I disagree, for the reasons I posted.

Plus, the verse doesn't say "apostasy", you did. It says "fallen away". And the context is about "moving on to maturity" from the elementary things and being "near to a curse", not cursed.

Yet being "convinced of their salvation".

I think we are talking past each other on this topic.
That's possible, but I'm listening and evaluating evidences as well as talking. And there may be other people reading, listening and searching for the truth.
 
Last edited:

Javier

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
18,314
How absurd is it for God to enlighten not just a believer who is "falling away" but a full bore unbelieving Christ persecutor, like Paul, then not allow them to repent when they fall again?
Paul never returned to being a Christ rejector.

It's important not to confuse daily struggles with sin with not caring about Christ's forgiveness anymore. For some reason many who believe in OSAS have no capacity to understand the difference. (Edited, Obadiah.)


I know. That's exactly correct and my point. It IS impossible to "fall away" and to not be able to repent. Why? Because that would mean God is unjust!

Do you think it is possible for someone to actually re-crucify Christ? I don't. I think it is as absurd as a person actually and literally having God's gift of The Holy Spirit inside of them, yet being unable to repent of the sin of "falling away".
Hmm. I was just talking about this in another thread.

We see from the example of the Israelites that is very possible to be dwelling in the fullness of God's manifest blessing and then lose that manifest blessing and not return to the blessing. And furthermore, because God won't let them.


Oh, and the author leaves you with; "God is NOT unjust".
God is not unjust to people who obey him, and are continuing to obey him. Read the passage, chessman.

Jethro Bodine, you need to "poke around" the actual Scriptures here more yourself.
Let's do that (Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling. Obadiah.):

"10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:10-12 NASB)

To whom is God saying he will not be unjust to, those who are persevering in their work and love for God, or to those who are not?


You might discover that some things truly are impossible. Such as:
"it is impossible for God to lie"
Correct. God cannot lie. And what he said is the promises are inherited through faith, and the persevering of faith (patience), not a one-time faith in God that later fails and is no longer 'still ministering to the saints'.

The whole counsel of God, chessman, the whole counsel of God! God cannot lie and is true to the whole counsel of his Word. That includes rejecting those who stop believing in him and serving him.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

chessman

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
4,653
Gender
Male
The whole counsel of God, chessman, the whole counsel of God! God cannot lie and is true to the whole counsel of his Word. That includes rejecting those who stop believing in him and serving him.
The whole counsel of God Jethro, the whole counsel of God! Amen.

However, in order to grasp the "full counsel" it is necessary to first grasp the "full context" of each passage, and to not turn theses phrases like "fallen away" or "spewed out" or "died in the desert", etc. into phrases that don't mean what you think they mean.

Part of what makes God, God is his severity toward those that "fall away". Yet, His kindness too.

And another part of God is his ability to graft them in again.

Which negates Heb 6's "falling away" to their de-salvation being possible.

It is wise to recognize that a mere
partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Why? Because the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Paul never returned to being a Christ rejector

How do you know brother, how do you know?
 

Javier

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
18,314
The whole counsel of God Jethro, the whole counsel of God! Amen.

However, in order to grasp the "full counsel" it is necessary to first grasp the "full context" of each passage, and to not turn theses phrases like "fallen away" or "spewed out" or "died in the desert", etc. into phrases that don't mean what you think they mean.

Part of what makes God, God is his severity toward those that "fall away". Yet, His kindness too.

And another part of God is his ability to graft them in again.

Which negates Heb 6's "falling away" to their de-salvation being possible.

It is wise to recognize that a mere
partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Why? Because the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.



How do you know brother, how do you know?
I'm always entertained by people who think the Israelites who are grafted back into the root are the exact same individuals who were cut out. As if that somehow proves salvation cannot be lost. :confused
 

chessman

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
4,653
Gender
Male
Paul never returned to being a Christ rejector.

It's important not to confuse daily struggles with sin with not caring about Christ's forgiveness anymore. For some reason OSAS has no capacity to understand the difference.
It's important not to confuse "falling away" from maturity with rejecting Christ. Why do you do that?

Where do you find someone who has rejected Christ in Heb 6 since it doesn't say that?

I'm always entertained by people who think the Israelites who are grafted back into the root are the exact same individuals who were cut out. As if that somehow proves salvation cannot be lost. :confused
Yes, It's a little funny that someone would think that.

But it's simply a prelude to the grand finally of laughter at someone who thinks the same God with the same attributes and abilities and Mercy that re-grafted that group of individuals into His house cannot or will not do so for the rest of His sons.
 

Javier

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
18,314
It's important not to confuse "falling away" from maturity with rejecting Christ. Why do you do that?
As I've pointed out, that is what popular OSAS doctrine does, not my doctrine. As I've said many times, the church can only hear the non-OSAS argument as meaning 'any time we sin we lose our salvation'. Even explaining that non-OSAS means walking away from the forgiveness of God in Christ, not failing in every day living but still clinging to the forgiveness of God, still doesn't make a dent in the predetermined thinking of some who can only hear non-OSAS as 'I lose my salvation whenever I sin'.


Where do you find someone who has rejected Christ in Heb 6 since it doesn't say that?
"6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" (Hebrews 6:6 NASB)

We know the falling away is not as you contend--a loss of maturity. We know that because it plainly says it is impossible to brought back from that fallen state. That's hardly true of simply being immature in Christ. Thank God that's not true of simply being immature in Christ!

The fact that you can't repent and come out of that fallen state indicates this is not talking about the bumpy road of growing up into Christ. It's something much, much more grave than that.



Yes, It's a little funny that someone would think that.
But apparently your doctrine does. But feel free to explain that's not what you're saying.

But it's simply a prelude to the grand finally of laughter at someone who thinks the same God with the same attributes and abilities and Mercy that re-grafted that group of individuals into His house cannot or will not do so for the rest of His sons.
Feel free to explain how cutting earlier generations of Jews from the tree and then grafting in later generations of Jews proves OSAS. The we'll see who's is the 'funny' doctrine--yours, that says that proves OSAS, or mine that says you can't prove OSAS using one group of living souls who fail but who have later descendants made up of completely different people who are then grafted back into the tree.
 

chessman

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
4,653
Gender
Male
Feel free to explain how cutting earlier generations of Jews from the tree and then grafting in later generations of Jews proves OSAS.
Easy. Because God is The One doing the grafting. Take the Christ rejector Saul as an example:

Romans 11:1 Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Brother, His fallen people can always repent. Though now that they've heard the gospel, it must be through belief in Jesus. No more of that dead works stuff. Even for the Hebrew people.

Or Abram:

Hebrews 6:13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater to swear by, he swore by himself,

Remember the promise was that God would ... (Not that man would ...)

The fact that you can't repent and come out of that fallen state indicates this is not talking about the bumpy road of growing up into Christ. It's something much, much more grave than that.

The fact that we cannot re-crucify Christ again (it's impossible) means there can be no other foundation laid that leads to Eternal Life (true repentance) other than the one Jesus (God) laid. That's what is impossible, repentance w/o God's help.

The works way (ritual law keeping) be dead, ritual baptisms (plural) ways be useless, etc. All be fallen away now that Christ died and was raised. What's impossible is to create any other path to repentance than the one God himself laid through Jesus. Though many try.

Even for the 'Jew' (you know, as a group), Now repentance is all about Him (Jesus). That's Hebrew's point in chapter 6.

It's not saying people that desire to repent through Christ cannot do so anytime God (and them) darn well pleases.

But it is saying you cannot repent w/o Jesus. It's impossible!
Always was. Always will be. God is unchanging and His will be done on Earth as it is done in Heaven.

I'll use one of your ideas: (Edited, ToS 2.4. Obadiah.)
Non-OSAS tells people; "Sorry, you are to fallen to repent."

Paul knows better!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Javier

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
18,314
Easy. Because God is The One doing the grafting. Take the Christ rejector Saul as an example:

Romans 11:1 Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

This doesn't explain how the previous generations of Israelites who were cut out of the tree are somehow OSAS. How does Paul coming to faith in Christ and being saved prove OSAS for the one's before him that were cut out?

It's obvious; Romans 11 is not a OSAS passage. The irrevocable calling explained there is not that a person who was once in the tree, but who was then cut out because of unbelief, can then later be put back in the tree. But it does make perfect sense in regard to God's plan for the children of Israel overall.
 

Initial Site Debt

Total amount
$804.00
Goal
$5,080.00
Top