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The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

Deborah13 said:
chessman, just making a quick assessment of Eph. 1:4
Eph 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,

I see 'us' is a group. God determined before the foundation of the world that there would be a 'group' of people who would believe Him, by grace through faith.
However, I do not see in that scripture where is says that each person in that group was 'chosen from the foundation of the world.'
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However, I do not see in that scripture where is says that each person in that group was 'chosen from the foundation of the world.
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It seems that some people weren't included in the Book of Life ( chosen ) from the foundation of the World does that imply some were ?

Rev 17:8 KJV The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
 
agua. said:
It seems that some people weren't included in the Book of Life ( chosen ) from the foundation of the World does that imply some were ?

Rev 17:8 KJV The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
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Because all names of believers are written in the book does that mean that they were individually chosen? Or does that mean that God always knew who His sheep would be?
 
Deborah13 said:
Because all names of believers are written in the book does that mean that they were individually chosen? Or does that mean that God always knew who His sheep would be?
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I'm not saying they were chosen ( although I don't discount it ) but If the names were written in the Book before the foundation of the World it means those who were written in the Book will be saved ie,. Perseverance of the Saints.
 
agua. said:
I'm not saying they were chosen ( although I don't discount it ) but If the names were written in the Book before the foundation of the World it means those who were written in the Book will be saved ie,. Perseverance of the Saints.
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I see the disagreement about PoS, comes down to How one achieves this, not whether it is necessary or not. And even what PoS looks like.
 
Deborah13 said:
I see the disagreement about PoS, comes down to How one achieves this, not whether it is necessary or not. And even what PoS looks like.
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Yeah. It's a difficult concept when we try to reconcile Yahweh's foreknowledge with His sovereignty. Most people accept that salvation is entirely a work of Yahweh but baulk when it comes to what this really means because they see something "unfair" in it. I'm happy not to boast I've had any part in my salvation.
 
Deborah13 said:
I see the disagreement about PoS, comes down to How one achieves this, not whether it is necessary or not. And even what PoS looks like.
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Bingo.
Plus, why would someone listen to a non-PoS person explain another's PoS view? Or vice versa, for that matter. It gets you nowhere, logically speaking.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:29 NASB)
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Again, Paul is posing a question with a hypothetical: "How much . . . do you think . . ." To the Jew who reject Jesus Christ, the only One for which the Law and the Prophets looked for, there is no one else to turn to for help - not towards the Father because He sent the Son, not the Son because He shed His own blood, and not the Spirit because He is in agreement with these things.
 
Kathi said:
Some people have never been saved even though they proclaim they are a Christian.Also some will lose rewards and the judgment.Some may just barely make it to heaven.
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No, the passages make it clear that the people being spoken to are really saved. And that what gets lost by not continuing to believe is their salvation, not just the chance at a grand entrance into the kingdom.
 
If this thread is to stay open, I would suggest the name calling, belittling, accusations of lying, spiritual immaturity, etc all be stopped from here on out. Thank you.
Obadiah.
 
Gregg said:
Again, Paul is posing a question with a hypothetical: "How much . . . do you think . . ." To the Jew who reject Jesus Christ, the only One for which the Law and the Prophets looked for, there is no one else to turn to for help - not towards the Father because He sent the Son, not the Son because He shed His own blood, and not the Spirit because He is in agreement with these things.
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That's exactly true. But the point is, they are already sanctified by the blood of the (new) Covenant. These are not 'believers' who have not believed yet, or who don't 'really' believe. They are indeed sanctified. Paul warns them that to depart from Christ now means they no longer have the sacrifice for sin they had while under the sanctifying blood.

This shows me two things: 1) You really do lose the forgiveness of sin if/when you walk away from the blood that once covered you, and 2) you really can do that. But OSAS doctrine says, depending on which argument within that doctrine is being defended, that 1) you do not lose your forgiveness/salvation if you stop believing, and 2) believers can't stop believing (fake one's do).
 
Jethro Bodine said:
That's exactly true. But the point is, they are already sanctified by the blood of the (new) Covenant. These are not 'believers' who have not believed yet, or who don't 'really' believe. They are indeed sanctified. Paul warns them that to depart from Christ now means they no longer have the sacrifice for sin they had while under the sanctifying blood.

This shows me two things: 1) You really do lose the forgiveness of sin if/when you walk away from the blood that once covered you, and 2) you really can do that. But OSAS doctrine says, depending on which argument within that doctrine is being defended, that 1) you do not lose your forgiveness/salvation if you stop believing, and 2) believers can't stop believing (fake one's do).
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:thumbsup
 
Jethro Bodine said:
That's exactly true. But the point is, they are already sanctified by the blood of the (new) Covenant. These are not 'believers' who have not believed yet, or who don't 'really' believe. They are indeed sanctified. Paul warns them that to depart from Christ now means they no longer have the sacrifice for sin they had while under the sanctifying blood.

This shows me two things: 1) You really do lose the forgiveness of sin if/when you walk away from the blood that once covered you, and 2) you really can do that. But OSAS doctrine says, depending on which argument within that doctrine is being defended, that 1) you do not lose your forgiveness/salvation if you stop believing, and 2) believers can't stop believing (fake one's do).
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But a Christian can not walk away from Christ, or His blood, so as to stop believing.

You speak of the "blood that once covered", but the blood of Christ covers.
 
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The spirit of a Christian is saved.
The spirit and soul of a Christian is saved, and is being saved.
The spirit and soul and body of a Christian is saved, and is being saved, and will be saved.
 
Gregg said:
But a Christian can not walk away from Christ, or His blood, so as to stop believing.

You speak of the "blood that once covered", but the blood of Christ covers.
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jocor said:
What verse says that?
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A Christian can not walk away from Christ because He holds us. A Christian can not un-cover himself from His blood because we are in Him, in His body, and He has been raised from the dead, and we with Him. We live because we know Him and are in Him.

Can a Christian un-know God? No. A man can know about God, but not know the Father and the Son. But a Christian has come to know God, passing from only knowing about Him into knowing Him.

"And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent" (John 17:3).

"And this is the witness: that God gave us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son" (1 John 5:11).
 
Gregg said:
A Christian can not walk away from Christ because He holds us. A Christian can not un-cover himself from His blood because we are in Him, in His body, and He has been raised from the dead, and we with Him. We live because we know Him and are in Him.

Can a Christian un-know God? No. A man can know about God, but not know the Father and the Son. But a Christian has come to know God, passing from only knowing about Him into knowing Him.

"And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent" (John 17:3).

"And this is the witness: that God gave us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son" (1 John 5:11).
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I assume you are referring to John 10:28-29:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.​

It is true that no man can pluck us out. These verses say nothing about us leaving their loving hands. As for knowing, I don't see how that has any bearing on the issue. Anyone can choose to reject the Father and the Son even after they have known them intimately. We can willfully choose to renounce Yeshua/Jesus as our Savior which, in turn, causes us to be separated forever from the Father.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresses, and abides not in the doctrine of Messiah, has not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Messiah, he has both the Father and the Son.
​
To "abide" means to remain in Messiah through faith/belief in him. We can choose to no longer remain in him at which time we no longer have the Father.
 
chessman said:
Then you should speak more precisely and correctly and say that NT Greek uses no English punctuation marks. Nor does it use English words.

http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/HTML_Common/greek_grammatical_terms.html

VII. CONDITIONAL SENTENCES

A. A conditional sentence is one that contains one or more conditional clauses. This grammatical structure aids interpretation because it provides the conditions, reasons or causes why the action of the main verb does or does not occur. There were four types of conditional sentences. They move from that which was assumed to be true from the author's perspective or for his purpose to that which was only a wish.


VI. CONJUNCTIONS AND CONNECTORS​

A. Greek is a very precise language because it has so many connectives. They connect thoughts (clauses, sentences, and paragraphs). They are so common that their absence (asyndeton) is often exegetically significant. As a matter of fact, these conjunctions and connectors show the direction of the author's thought. They often are crucial in determining what exactly he is trying to communicate.​

Therefore, follow the conjunctions and, as I said, Heb 6:4-6 is one sentence structure in NT Greek or English.
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Notice what you do?

This is what I stated:
What did I write? I stated, 'NT Greek uses no sentences as we understand in English'. The facts are that there are no punctuation marks in Greek MSS and words are joined together. Sentence structure is based on Greek grammar and syntax. How do I know? I'm a teacher of NT Greek.

This website on 'Punctuation in Ancient Greek Texts, Part 1' stated it simply and clearly:
The ancient Greeks did not have any equivalent to our modern device of punctuation. Sentence punctuation was invented several centuries after the time of Christ. The oldest copies of both the Greek New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament are written with no punctuation....​

I provided actual copies of evidence to demonstrate this, but you didn't want to address this so you gave me a red herring fallacy. We can't have a logical conversation when you do this.

Bye, Oz
 
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Gregg said:
Some are enlightened about God and Christ, but prefer to hide in their darkness.
Some taste the heavenly gift, but but never inwardly consume Christ's blood and flesh.
Some are made to experience the Holy Spirit working near them, but deny His power to themselves.
Some taste the goodness of the word of God, but do not hear in their hearts, never receiving the One who spoke the words.
Some witnessed the powers of the age to come, but deny the Resurrection and the Life.
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Gregg,

For those kinds of people, it would not be possible to 'fall away'. We are told in Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV) that 'if they then fall away' (v. 6). We are talking about people who had the faith to fall away from.
 
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