The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

[FreeGrace]

When Paul stood upon the earth, Paul was saved, the messenger of Satan in his flesh was not.

Why is the messenger of Satan being brought up in regards to Paul's salvation?

There you have two diametrically opposed "end fates," both existing in what appears to you to be only one person.

When I consider Paul, I certainly don't consider the messenger of Satan. Why would I?

I prefer the scriptural example. This sight is not opposed to your views in any case, other than you may have to consider that messenger of Satan in the flesh perhaps goes against an invalid doctrinal position that some hold to, that a messenger of Satan can not "be" in the flesh of a believer, even though Paul, an Apostle, clearly shows otherwise for himself.

Let's consider Scripture again:
"Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!"

Several points:
1. Paul had seen and heard in the 3rd heaven surpassing greatness of the revelations
2. he was given a "thorn in the flesh" to keep him from exalting himself
3. this "thorn" was a messenger of Satan
4. this "thorn" tormented Paul to keep him from exalting himself

The phrase "thorn in the flesh" cannot be taken literally; it's a figure of speech. Just as a literal thorn pierces the flesh and hurts (torments), so the messenger tormented Paul. That's all.

Is your position that this messenger indwelt Paul, like demons possess people?

 

[smaller]

Is your position that this messenger indwelt Paul, like demons possess people?

I don't really know why anyone would consider internal temptation or partial spiritual blindness, which Paul had btw, because he only saw in part, just as we all do, as possession. It's not. It's internal resistance to the works and ways of God in Christ by a real party other than the believer.

What I am observing with this subject matter is that we have an adversary. An "internal" one. A REAL adversary with a real kingdom that operates against people and against believers in particular. And that internal adversary is NOT saved by any means.

Therefore it is pointless to condemn any christian believer to potential hell when there are other matters to consider.

Simple enough?

I mean really, who are these supposed believers who are trying to promote burning other believers alive forever? Is that any kind of christian belief? I think NOT. Is that love? No. Do they "judge themselves" accurately? No. None of these "condemners" could step into Paul's shoes themselves on the ill side of the ledgers, and if they did, they'd shut up about sending believers to hell because it's not going to happen.

We're given an open lane, a veritable highway on this matter for judgments that do NOT revolve around believers, and would be wise to consider the implications of that matter first, personally then collectively.

Judging each others to hell has destroyed and divided the churches many long centuries ago. I'll have no part of that kind of phony religious meal. (Supposed) believers were already stupid enough to kill each others over these matters. What are we? Fools of Satan rather than of Christ?

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't really know why anyone would consider internal temptation or partial spiritual blindness, which Paul had btw, because he only saw in part, just as we all do, as possession. It's not. It's internal resistance to the works and ways of God in Christ by a real party other than the believer.

What I am observing with this subject matter is that we have an adversary. An "internal" one.

This was my question: "Is your position that this messenger indwelt Paul, like demons possess people?"

otoh, you've denied "possession", yet, otoh, you mention an 'internal' adversary. Sounds as if you're trying to have it both ways. Please answer my question directly, without contradiction or waffling.

A REAL adversary with a real kingdom that operates against people and against believers in particular. And that internal adversary is NOT saved by any means.

Why is any of this an issue in the discussion of eternal security?? You've still not answered that.

Therefore it is pointless to condemn any christian believer to potential hell when there are other matters to consider.

Simple enough?

I still don't understand why bringing up the adversary in any discussion of eternal security. It is irrelevant.

 

[smaller]

This was my question: "Is your position that this messenger indwelt Paul, like demons possess people?"

I think this is a question that only you can answer honestly, within. Does the tempter, an agent that is not you, tempt you in thought? If so, then you have your own answer. I can not answer honestly for you, but I can answer honestly for myself and that answer is YES, this does happen with me.

Therefore I am somewhat cognizant that A. This transpires internally, and B. As such, the most wicked being that exists would be present within me when that happens. Is this abhorrent to me? Yes, very much so. But it IS an internal reality that is presented to us in His Word and I will "testify" and "witness" to that side of the equations. This also helps me understand what happens to everyone.

otoh, you've denied "possession", yet, otoh, you mention an 'internal' adversary. Sounds as if you're trying to have it both ways. Please answer my question directly, without contradiction or waffling.

I've pointed to Paul's examples and I do not personally consider myself equal to Paul, but vastly inferior by comparison. I will however follow his lead in these matters.

Why is any of this an issue in the discussion of eternal security?? You've still not answered that.

I think it may be import to consider that there is a fulcrum of judgment that does NOT revolve around the believer only.

I still don't understand why bringing up the adversary in any discussion of eternal security. It is irrelevant.

In consideration of the matters it would be ridiculous for any of us to blanket the entirety of ourselves with only the sweet and fine things of God, when there is obviously "another party" to the matters. There is little use in stretching the blanket of salvation and Grace over the tempter. No person can stand honestly before God without recognizing the evil in their own conscience. I prefer to stand honestly, and not attempt any coverups. And even less, excuses for the tempter.

The man Jesus referred to below saw himself honestly before God. And it is that man who goes to his house, justified.

Luke 18:
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I know the ways of abasement as well as needed. It is not a wise thing, to see ourselves apart from the reality of internal temptations, them being of the tempter. It is even more pointless to try to find justifications and personal excuses for same. Or even worse, to deny it to be a fact. A broken heart is broken on this internal ground. It is the ground of humble fear.

Am I willing to ask God in Christ to excuse and justify sin? To cover same with Grace? To overlook "mine" while counting everyone else's? Uh, no. Not in myself or anyone else. But that does not eliminate the facts of having same.

So, no, I do not believe Paul stood before God in Christ seeking to justify the messenger of Satan in his own flesh. I wouldn't believe that for a second. He was not that stupid.

 

[JLB]

It would seem that dangling any believer over the potential pit of hell would not be "loving them" but rather threatening, bullying and intimidating them.

John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

Warning a brother in Christ, who has strayed from the truth, that they are in danger, is a clear act of love.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19


Cover a multitude of sins is "love language", for love covers a multitude of sins.


JLB

 

[Obadiah]

Ok, that's enough. I asked that this thread be returned to the original subject of why you can't lose your salvation, but you guys are continuing on with this internal possession theory that seems to have more to do with why we sin than why we can't lose our salvation. Thread closed.