The Work of The Holy Spirit.

[Mungo]

I have an interesting book which discusses the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. I think it clarifies what can be confusing in scripture. It's called Receiving The Power by Zeb Bradford Long and Douglas McMurray, two Presbyterian Charismatics. It was recommended to me by a Messianic Jew - so very ecumenical.

1. Their thesis is that there are two distinctive ways in which the Holy Spirit acts and these are often confused, not the least because the same phrases are used in scripture regarding them. These two ways are referred to by Long & McMurray as ‘the Spirit upon’ and ‘the Spirit within’. Thus there is an external and internal work of the Spirit. This is true both for the Old Testament and the New

Correspondingly there are:
2. two ways of receiving the Holy Spirit;
3. two ways of being filled with the Holy Spirit (or full of the Holy Spirit);
4. two 'baptisms'.

That's a lot to discuss. I suggest we confine this thread to the two ways; 'the Spirit upon' and 'the Spirit within' - the internal work and the external work (labelled 1. above). And move on from there to 2, 3 & 4, later - perhaps in other threads (one each)

1. The Spirit 'upon' and the Spirit 'within':
.Actual quotations from the book are in blue.
There are two major motifs in scripture…that reflect two different operations of the Holy Spirit. One motif has the Spirit coming “upon” people for power in ministry. A second has the Spirit coming “within” people for salvation and to develop in them skill, wisdom, godly character and maturity in faith and love. Both motifs are equally important and equally biblical.

Thus there is an external and internal work of the Spirit. This is true both for the Old Testament and the New.

The external work corresponds to the charismatic gifts of the Spirit which are given for work of ministry. Examples of the ‘Spirit upon’ from the Old Testament are 2Chr 15:1-2 (for prophecy), 1Sam 19:23-24 (ecstatic praise of God), Ez 1:3-4 (for visions).
Examples from the New Testament are Acts 2:17 (Peter quoting Joel), Acts 10:44-47 (tongues, extolling God), Avts 19:6 (tongues, prophecy)

The internal work corresponds to the sanctifying gifts of the Spirit, as well as practical gifts. Examples from the Old Testament are Gen 41:38-39 (wisdom), Ex 31:1-5 (knowledge and craftsmanship).]
Examples from the New Testament are 1Cor 6:19, 2 Cor 1:22, Eph 4:16.

Long & McMurray use the imagery of a tree where, in the external work, the Spirit gives gifts like those on a Christmas tree, which can be added or removed. They are given for ministry and for the building up of the Church. The internal work is more like the sap permeating the tree giving it life and producing fruit that comes from within. Thus the internal work helps us grow in holiness and spiritual fruitfulness.

It is important that these two workings are kept in balance.
As bitter experience has shown, the “Spirit upon” for gifts and power may occur to great effect, but if there is no parallel growth in the inward work of the Spirit, there can follow a loss of power leading to disaster…. Many a large church or impressive evangelistic ministry has been swept away because the preacher or evangelist neglected the inward work of the Holy Spirit becoming proud and unaccountable…

An opposite but equally tragic situation afflicts the Church when there is an inward work of the Holy Spirit but rejection of the outward work. In this case a believer may pursue moral living, altruistic works, concise exposition of the Word and genuine Christian fellowship but demonstrate no spiritual power to set people free from bondage or fulfil the task of evangelism and making disciples…..

This half-full Christianity is as scandalous as the other. The world scorns a powerless church as much as it scorns an immoral one…… Surely the answer to both dilemmas is that we open our lives to both kinds of infilling, to the work of “the Spirit upon” and “the Spirit within”.

 

[stovebolts]

This sounds like a very interesting theology. I'd like to hear more of their thoughts along with your own.

 

[for_his_glory]

This was very well written as whether God chooses the Spirit to come on us for a time and season or in us for full throttle ministry through all the gifts of the Holy Spirit we need to know it is not us, but Christ in us that works through us. There is nothing we can do of our self, even though many fake it, as all things come by God alone for the glory of the kingdom of God.

 

[Mungo]

OK, I'll move onto the next point from the OP - 2. two ways of receiving the Holy Spirit
Long & McMurray don't say much on this; they mainly give examples. So this is more me than them.

When scripture uses the phrase “receive the Holy Spirit” (or similar) it may be using it to refer to either “the Spirit upon” or the “Spirit within”. Some discernment is needed and sometimes the text is not clear. One test is whether there is some manifestation of “the Spirit upon”.

The Spirit Upon
In Acts, Luke seems to use the term exclusively for “the Spirit upon”. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit, in the form of tongues of fire, comes to rest on those in the Upper Room and they all begin to speak in tongues (manifestation) (Acts 2:1-4)

In Acts 10 the Holy Spirit falls on Cornelius and his household and they began to speak in tongues (manifestation). Peter says "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (vs 47) – referring to Pentecost. This is “the Spirit upon”.

In Acts 8 Phillip has been baptizing in Samaria. Peter and John are sent to lay hands on those baptized and prayed for them “that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:15-17). Though no particular manifestation is reported there clearly was one because Simon the magician wanted to have the same power saying "Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." (Vs 19)

In Acts 19 Paul is in Ephesus and meets 12 men who claim to be disciples but they seem to be lacking something. Paul asks:
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They replied
"No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
They had only been baptized in John’s baptism. Paul has them baptized in the name of Jesus “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.” (vs 6)
All quotes from RSV

It seems they had not received the Holy Spirit in the sense of “the Spirit upon” because Paul could see no manifestations, which then happened when Paul laid hands on them. If they had not been baptized in the name of Jesus then they had not received “the Spirit within” either, but I will come to that later.

The Spirit Within
Paul himself, in his writings, seems to use receiving the Holy Spirit in the sense of “the Spirit within” (for character and salvation)

“The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship ” (Rom 8:15- NIV)

What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. (1Cor 2:12 - NIV)

“Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? ” (1Cor 6:19 - NIV)

 

[for_his_glory]

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is the same as Acts 10:44-46 as the Holy Spirit was poured out on them and filled/indwelled with the Holy Spirit before they spoke in tongues. In Acts 8:15-17 those from Samaria were only baptized in water in the name of Jesus for repentance only. It was only when Peter and John laid hands on them that they then received the Holy Spirit. In all those verses you gave they were all indwelled with the Holy Spirit before they spoke in tongues.

In the OT the Holy Spirit, being God's Spirit only came upon the Prophets and never indwelled them as it was for a time and season of prophesy as Christ had not yet come.

In the NT the prophecy of Christ has been fulfilled in His birth, death and resurrection. It wasn't until Christ ascended up to heaven that God sent the Holy Spirit down to indwell all by faith who believe in Christ for we are now the the temple of the Holy Spirit in whom the Holy Spirit works in us and through us, 1 Corinthians 6:19, 20. The Holy Spirit is a free gift of God to all who will ask for this gift, Acts 2:38, 39.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit only comes by Christ who indwells us with God's Holy Spirit, as it's a free gift from God to all who will ask of it, Luke 11:13; John 20:22.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Luke 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not; 16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Note: fire means empowerment as in the seven spirits of God being the seven fold ministry that are listed in Isaiah 11:1, 2 and again in Rev 1:4 as the seven spirits are before the throne of God. It's those seven spirits of God that the Holy Spirit works through us and in us for the purpose of God's ministry here on earth.

 

[Mungo]

OK, on to point 3 in the OP
3. two ways of being filled with the Holy Spirit (or full of the Holy Spirit).
This is a bit simpler as the Greek uses two different words.
Again quotes from Long and McMurray in blue

The second expression the Bible uses, filled with the Holy Spirit, is more complicated but it too can be understood in the context of the inner and outer work of the Spirit.

When the New Testament speaks of people being “filled with” or “full of” the Holy Spirit, the Greek word reveals one of two concepts. English translations…. Use the same words for both Greek concepts and do not reflect the difference. One Greek term, pleitho, is used consistently for the outer work of the Holy Spirit and usually refers to a brief temporary filling. Another Greek word pleiroo (or its cognate pleires) is used consistently for the inner work of the Holy Spirit and usually refers to something that gets fuller and fuller until it is saturated. This refers to a state of being.

The distinction between pleitho and plieroo is more or less consistent, whether they speak of being filled with the Holy Spirit or anything else.

“Filled” for Action
The filling referred to by the word pleitho is temporary and followed immediately by action. It corresponds to upon or fell upon.

Examples of pleitho – temporary, for action
“And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying….” (Lk 1:67)

“Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them……” (Acts 4:8)

“But Saul, who is also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him and said,….” (Acts 13:9-10).

This kind of filling happens again and again, just as a sponge may be refilled many times…..The disciples were not filled only once on Pentecost, but many times thereafter…..The presence of the Holy Spirit is constant, but the expression of the power is episodic. (my emboldening)

I think this usage is what might be called an anointing.

“Filled” as a State of Being
The other Greek word for being filled with the Holy Spirit, pleiroo (or its alternative pleires), describes something becoming fuller and fuller. The filling does not happen at distinct times, but is a slow progressive saturation, like yeast permeating a dough, and describes a state of being. Usually there is no reference to dynamic action.

Examples of pleiroo/pleires – state of being
“And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the devil.” (Lk1-2)

“Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom …” (Acts 6:3)

“[F]or he [Barnabus] was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith…” (Acts 11:24)

Two Ways of Being Spirit Filled
We can summarise these findings simply. God wants us to be filled with the Holy Spirit in two distinct senses of the word. He wants us, on the one hand, to be open to all the inner workings of the Spirit in our character, preparing us for eternity and yielding the fruit of the Spirit, especially love. On the other hand, He wants us to be open occasions when we can minister in His power through the gifts of the Spirit.

In the first instance, we “have” the Holy Spirit. He is described as being “in” us to change our character. Christian character arises from the slow, percolating work of the Holy Spirit…

In the second instance, the Holy Spirit “has” us. He chooses to use us in a moment to accomplish a ministry by His power. At no time does the Bible indicate that you or I can “have” the power of God in the same way a New Ager tries to get spiritual power to use for good or evil. This kind of power for service comes and goes….

 

[Mungo]

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is the same as Acts 10:44-46 as the Holy Spirit was poured out on them and filled/indwelled with the Holy Spirit before they spoke in tongues. In Acts 8:15-17 those from Samaria were only baptized in water in the name of Jesus for repentance only. It was only when Peter and John laid hands on them that they then received the Holy Spirit. In all those verses you gave they were all indwelled with the Holy Spirit before they spoke in tongues.

In the OT the Holy Spirit, being God's Spirit only came upon the Prophets and never indwelled them as it was for a time and season of prophesy as Christ had not yet come.

In the NT the prophecy of Christ has been fulfilled in His birth, death and resurrection. It wasn't until Christ ascended up to heaven that God sent the Holy Spirit down to indwell all by faith who believe in Christ for we are now the the temple of the Holy Spirit in whom the Holy Spirit works in us and through us, 1 Corinthians 6:19, 20. The Holy Spirit is a free gift of God to all who will ask for this gift, Acts 2:38, 39.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit only comes by Christ who indwells us with God's Holy Spirit, as it's a free gift from God to all who will ask of it, Luke 11:13; John 20:22.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Luke 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not; 16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Note: fire means empowerment as in the seven spirits of God being the seven fold ministry that are listed in Isaiah 11:1, 2 and again in Rev 1:4 as the seven spirits are before the throne of God. It's those seven spirits of God that the Holy Spirit works through us and in us for the purpose of God's ministry here on earth.

Some of this I will come to in part 4 - the "two baptisms" which I expect to be the most contentious part.

Long and McMurray give examples of people being filled with the Spirit in the OT (see OP), and that filling with the Spirit is the Spirit within sense. However they do say "After Pentecost the terms the Spirit within and filled with the Spirit refer not to skill or wisdom in administration, but to the operation of the Holy Spirit in bringing salvation and changed character."
So although in the OT some people had the Spirit within, it was not in the same sense that we now have that indwelling for salvation and sanctification. That was prophesied by Jeremiah (31:31-34) and Ezekial (36:25-27).

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi M,,,,
Very interesting thread.
I look forward to more postings from you till you're finished with this topic.

What I've always believed is that in the O.T. we had the spirit that fell UPON.

In the N.T. we have the spirit that is WITHING...or the dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

It's this dwelling of the Spirit that is constantly with us that helps us to grow in our faith and avoid most sin...I don't believe all sin could be avoided; however, I have a very sensitive understanding about sins.

I very much understood the situation to be as such, in the above:

Long and McMurray give examples of people being filled with the Spirit in the OT (see OP), and that filling with the Spirit is the Spirit within sense. However they do say "After Pentecost the terms the Spirit within and filled with the Spirit refer not to skill or wisdom in administration, but to the operation of the Holy Spirit in bringing salvation and changed character."
So although in the OT some people had the Spirit within, it was not in the same sense that we now have that indwelling for salvation and sanctification. That was prophesied by Jeremiah (31:31-34) and Ezekial (36:25-27).

 

[for_his_glory]

The Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of God and is referred to being part of the trinity that is Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost. God is a Spirit and wants us to worship or another word for worship is to humble ourselves before him in spirit and truth. God is not flesh and blood that we can see and touch with our physical senses for he has no form but the Spirit that is God can take on many forms for us to hear him speak to us. Gods’ spirit spoke to many prophets throughout the Bible through pillars of clouds a burning bush, a donkey or spoke with visions through dreams to reveal his will for encouragement and instruction. Gods' spirit was and still is alive and moves through the hearts of his who are called by his name and have answered his call to salvation through Jesus.
John 4:24; Exodus 3:4; Numbers 12:5; Genesis 37:5

The Spirit of God was made flesh (Jesus) to walk among us teaching us and showing signs and wonders for the people to repent of their evil ways and come back to God. Many came back to God and were made servants worthy to praise him and continue in his works but there were many (Pharisees and Priest) that despised what they were hearing for it came against their laws and traditions and they felt they needed to silence this man, not knowing that it was actually the Spirit of God they were trying to silence.
John 1:1-5; John 11:45, 46

The Pharisees and Scribes thought they did away with this man named Jesus, but did not realize that one of the promises God made with Abraham was that he would never leave or forsake his own. Jesus also told his disciples about how he had to go and be with the Father and if they would keep his commandments the Father would give them another comforter that would be with them forever and teach them all things and bring those things back to their remembrance.
Genesis 12:1-3; Deuteronomy 4:29-31; John 14:15, 16; Acts 2:1-4

The disciples could not understand with their carnal minds what Jesus was teaching them, but they knew he was a prophet sent from God and accepted the authority and power which he taught with through miracles, signs and wonders. It would not be until the Spirit of God (Jesus) was taken up out of the tomb and revealed to the hearts of those who believed on him that the same Spirit (Holy Spirit) would be sent back down to dwell in the hearts of those who believed.
Romans 8:6, 7; Acts 1:1-8; Acts 2:1-4

When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn. The baptism that Peter was talking about was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did as he was the forerunner of Jesus and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, but Jesus himself never baptized with water for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father.
Acts 2:38, 39; John 14:26; Matthew 3:11

The Holy Spirit will teach you things the carnal mind cannot perceive. Jesus explains the purpose of the Holy Spirit and the relationship of the believers to Christ and what relationship the believers have to the world in John chapters 14 and 15. Please read both chapters before you read on as the importance of these two chapters will help you understand the rest of this chapter on the Holy Spirit.

We receive power and authority through the Holy Spirit to carry on the works of the Lord until His glorious return. In order to stay in Gods will you must posses the mind of Christ to know the works we do are not of ourselves, but that of the Father who started a good work in you. Jesus has started a good work within you and we can only carry out these works through the Holy Spirits guidance as we help meet the needs of others who need a touch from God.
Acts 1:8; Matthew 28:18-20; Philippians 2:5-8

The Holy Spirit bears witness of Jesus to us as he did to the disciples on the day of Pentecost for us to gain truth through Spiritual eyes and ears. The disciples could not understand the works of the Lord with their carnal minds until they received power from God and after that the Holy Spirit came on them to teach them how to do the will of the Father. God gives us his power and authority through the Holy Spirit to be over comers and to take his word out into the world with love and compassion as we allow the Holy Spirit speak through us.

That same power that is in us only comes through the Holy Spirit and all we need to do is ask and receive that power through faith and it will manifest immediately within our spirit. That power gives us Spiritual authority against anything that tries to come against us. We have the same promises that God gave to Abraham because even though we are Gentiles we are under that same covenant that God established with Abraham because we are joint heirs with Jesus which makes us a child of God.
Galatians 3:14; Genesis 12:1-3; Galatians 4:7; Romans 3:29

We can do nothing through the flesh because our flesh is as a filthy rag to God and produces vanity which is not of God, but of self. Jesus has begun the good works through you and the Holy Spirit will guide you the whole way if you only believe and allow Him to. God uses the eyes and voice of men to teach us this word through the Holy Spirit, but always be aware of what you are being taught for the Bible warns us that there are many false prophets and false teachers out there and we can only tell by what fruits that are coming out of their mouths whether they be of God or of flesh. When you are being taught by others take the scriptures home and studying them for yourself by allowing the Holy Spirit teach you and give you understanding so when you are being taught by others you will know how to discern truth and know for a surety that what is being taught is of God and not mans interpretations of the word of God.
Galatians 3:1-3; Isaiah 64:6; Matthew 7:15-17; 1 John 4:1-6

 

[Mungo]

The Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of God and is referred to being part of the trinity that is Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost. God is a Spirit and wants us to worship or another word for worship is to humble ourselves before him in spirit and truth. God is not flesh and blood that we can see and touch with our physical senses for he has no form but the Spirit that is God can take on many forms for us to hear him speak to us. Gods’ spirit spoke to many prophets throughout the Bible through pillars of clouds a burning bush, a donkey or spoke with visions through dreams to reveal his will for encouragement and instruction. Gods' spirit was and still is alive and moves through the hearts of his who are called by his name and have answered his call to salvation through Jesus.
John 4:24; Exodus 3:4; Numbers 12:5; Genesis 37:5

The Spirit of God was made flesh (Jesus) to walk among us teaching us and showing signs and wonders for the people to repent of their evil ways and come back to God. Many came back to God and were made servants worthy to praise him and continue in his works but there were many (Pharisees and Priest) that despised what they were hearing for it came against their laws and traditions and they felt they needed to silence this man, not knowing that it was actually the Spirit of God they were trying to silence.
John 1:1-5; John 11:45, 46

The Pharisees and Scribes thought they did away with this man named Jesus, but did not realize that one of the promises God made with Abraham was that he would never leave or forsake his own. Jesus also told his disciples about how he had to go and be with the Father and if they would keep his commandments the Father would give them another comforter that would be with them forever and teach them all things and bring those things back to their remembrance.
Genesis 12:1-3; Deuteronomy 4:29-31; John 14:15, 16; Acts 2:1-4

The disciples could not understand with their carnal minds what Jesus was teaching them, but they knew he was a prophet sent from God and accepted the authority and power which he taught with through miracles, signs and wonders. It would not be until the Spirit of God (Jesus) was taken up out of the tomb and revealed to the hearts of those who believed on him that the same Spirit (Holy Spirit) would be sent back down to dwell in the hearts of those who believed.
Romans 8:6, 7; Acts 1:1-8; Acts 2:1-4

When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn. The baptism that Peter was talking about was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did as he was the forerunner of Jesus and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, but Jesus himself never baptized with water for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father.
Acts 2:38, 39; John 14:26; Matthew 3:11

The Holy Spirit will teach you things the carnal mind cannot perceive. Jesus explains the purpose of the Holy Spirit and the relationship of the believers to Christ and what relationship the believers have to the world in John chapters 14 and 15. Please read both chapters before you read on as the importance of these two chapters will help you understand the rest of this chapter on the Holy Spirit.

We receive power and authority through the Holy Spirit to carry on the works of the Lord until His glorious return. In order to stay in Gods will you must posses the mind of Christ to know the works we do are not of ourselves, but that of the Father who started a good work in you. Jesus has started a good work within you and we can only carry out these works through the Holy Spirits guidance as we help meet the needs of others who need a touch from God.
Acts 1:8; Matthew 28:18-20; Philippians 2:5-8

The Holy Spirit bears witness of Jesus to us as he did to the disciples on the day of Pentecost for us to gain truth through Spiritual eyes and ears. The disciples could not understand the works of the Lord with their carnal minds until they received power from God and after that the Holy Spirit came on them to teach them how to do the will of the Father. God gives us his power and authority through the Holy Spirit to be over comers and to take his word out into the world with love and compassion as we allow the Holy Spirit speak through us.

That same power that is in us only comes through the Holy Spirit and all we need to do is ask and receive that power through faith and it will manifest immediately within our spirit. That power gives us Spiritual authority against anything that tries to come against us. We have the same promises that God gave to Abraham because even though we are Gentiles we are under that same covenant that God established with Abraham because we are joint heirs with Jesus which makes us a child of God.
Galatians 3:14; Genesis 12:1-3; Galatians 4:7; Romans 3:29

We can do nothing through the flesh because our flesh is as a filthy rag to God and produces vanity which is not of God, but of self. Jesus has begun the good works through you and the Holy Spirit will guide you the whole way if you only believe and allow Him to. God uses the eyes and voice of men to teach us this word through the Holy Spirit, but always be aware of what you are being taught for the Bible warns us that there are many false prophets and false teachers out there and we can only tell by what fruits that are coming out of their mouths whether they be of God or of flesh. When you are being taught by others take the scriptures home and studying them for yourself by allowing the Holy Spirit teach you and give you understanding so when you are being taught by others you will know how to discern truth and know for a surety that what is being taught is of God and not mans interpretations of the word of God.
Galatians 3:1-3; Isaiah 64:6; Matthew 7:15-17; 1 John 4:1-6

Could you clarify something for me please.

You said "The Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of God and is referred to being part of the trinity that is Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost."
Jesus is the Son - the second person of the Trinity whereas the Holy Spirit is the third.

But then you say "The Spirit of God was made flesh (Jesus)..."

Is Jesus the Son or the Holy Spirit?

 

[for_his_glory]

Could you clarify something for me please.

You said "The Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of God and is referred to being part of the trinity that is Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost."
Jesus is the Son - the second person of the Trinity whereas the Holy Spirit is the third.

But then you say "The Spirit of God was made flesh (Jesus)..."

Is Jesus the Son or the Holy Spirit?

Father, Son and Holy Spirit is all God's Spirit that manifest in three separate ways.
God of all creation, Jesus being the word of God come in the flesh and the Holy Spirit given of God as our comforter and teacher that indwells us as it's all God's Spirit that indwells us as in Deity.

 

[Mungo]

Father, Son and Holy Spirit is all God's Spirit that manifest in three separate ways.
God of all creation, Jesus being the word of God come in the flesh and the Holy Spirit given of God as our comforter and teacher that indwells us as it's all God's Spirit that indwells us as in Deity.

Hmmm!

 

[Mungo]

Two Baptisms

Moving on the point 4 - "two Baptisms" There are two 'baptisms' of particular concern to the Christian, namely Sacramental Baptism (‘water baptism’) and "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" (‘spirit baptism’).

Here I wish to note that the term "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" never appears in scripture. It appears to have been coined by Reuben Archer Torrey in the late 19th century.

There is nothing wrong with using the term, (the terms Trinity and Incarnation do not appear in scripture) as long as we realise that the one baptism on Eph 4:5 means baptism with water.

Long & McMurray recognise the potential for confusion (although as Presbyterians they do not accept the sacrament of Confirmation).

..why is the term baptism used? Doesn’t this create confusion and entangle us in debates about the sacrament of water baptism?

We use the word baptism to signify an initiation. Just as the water baptism is the initiation into Christ, Holy Spirit baptism is the initiation into the power of the Spirit. Because it is a beginning we do not speak of being “baptised with the Holy Spirit” every time God uses us in some new manifestation of the Spirit. Baptism with the Spirit refers to the first time we sought the Lord and he answered our prayer with power. It is a gateway into power ministry

Actually that is a useful way of looking at the sacrament of Confirmation (as one of the sacraments of Initiation) and Presbyterians do seem to believe in it - but just refuse to call it a sacrament. But that is a diversion.

Thus in sacramental Baptism (with water) we receive “the Spirit within”, to equip us for a holy life, and in Confirmation we receive “the Spirit upon” to empower us for ministry and evangelisation.

R.A. Torrey liked to cite a number of Scriptures, then summarise their contents in a proposition. Torrey challenged all Christians to accept four propositions about Baptism with the Holy Spirit:
1. There is a diversity of terms but the same experience.
2. The baptism with the Spirit is a definite experience.
3. The baptism with the Spirit is distinct from salvation and sanctification.
4. The baptism with the Spirit is primarily for witness and Christian service.

There then follows several pages exploring these propositions.

 

[JohnDB]

Exodus 31:3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills-

I was reading this yesterday while researching something.
This is very different than what is normally said.
This is often seen as the Holy Spirit...this is different. But it's unique.

Any thoughts?

 

[Mungo]

Exodus 31:3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills-

I was reading this yesterday while researching something.
This is very different than what is normally said.
This is often seen as the Holy Spirit...this is different. But it's unique.

Any thoughts?

I don't think it is unique. Long and McMurray give several examples of the Holy Spirit acting in the OT
The first 3 are the Spirit 'upon'
the fourth is the Spirit 'within' and includes your reference
1. The Spirit falling upon or taking possession = Dynamic action (Judges 3:10; 6:34; 14:5-6; 1Samuel 10:13).
2. The Spirit falling upon people = Speaking God's word or seeing visions (Num 11::167, 25-26; 1Kings 18:46; 2Kings 2:12-14; Ezekial 1:3-4; 3:22)
3. The Spirit falling upon people = Ecstatic praise of God (1Samuel 10:10-13; 19:23-24).
4. The Spirit within = Wisdom for leadership and skill and craftmanship to build the Ark of the Covenant (Genesis 41:38-39; Exodus 31:1-54; Deuteronomy 34:9)

 

[JohnDB]

This is Exodus...
The "Spirit of God" is seen before in Genesis 1:2

And not often afterwards if at all. (I can't remember any of there is any)

The way something is said in scripture is often important. (I value every word... even the "skip over boring stuff")
This isn't the Holy Spirit...this is the Spirit of God.
Big doings...that's the same spirit that was instrumental in the creation account...the first doing anything. "The Spirit of God was hovering over the waters"

This is very different than the Holy Spirit. Something unique. (Which is why I am studying this...I aim to understand the difference between the two and why the difference)
(Edited to add)
I had forgotten that Pharaoh had used this expression.

 

[JohnDB]

Mungo ,
I am going to enjoy looking into what others come up with while I study this topic myself.

I have heard of studies of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament...but hadn't done one myself. But a conversation with my wonderful wife got me thinking about this...so it created a question...which creates more questions.
This is called "The Halaak" or "The Walk"....an old Jewish expression for studying the scriptures.

 

[Mungo]

This is Exodus...
The "Spirit of God" is seen before in Genesis 1:2

And not often afterwards if at all. (I can't remember any of there is any)

The way something is said in scripture is often important. (I value every word... even the "skip over boring stuff")
This isn't the Holy Spirit...this is the Spirit of God.
Big doings...that's the same spirit that was instrumental in the creation account...the first doing anything. "The Spirit of God was hovering over the waters"

This is very different than the Holy Spirit. Something unique. (Which is why I am studying this...I aim to understand the difference between the two and why the difference)
(Edited to add)
I had forgotten that Pharaoh had used this expression.

How is the Holy Spirit different to the Spirit of God.
What is the Spirit of God if not the Holy Spirit?
You puzzle me.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hmmm!

If you do not understand Deity than you will not understand the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as being the Spirit of God before the beginning of creation.

 

[for_his_glory]

Here I wish to note that the term "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" never appears in scripture. It appears to have been coined by Reuben Archer Torrey in the late 19th century.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: