When does "thousand" not mean "thousand?"

[Stormcrow]

You can all thank Reba for this one:

"For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. Psalm 50:10 (NASB)

She then asked, "Who owns the cattle on hill 1001?"

Clearly, the word "thousand" in this verse is meant to convey the idea of vastness: the cattle on an infinite number of hills belong to God. It is not a literal "thousand hills."

Now David was writing this Psalm under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

So, too, was John when he wrote this:

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:6 (NASB)

To phrase it in the form of Reba's question, "Who reigns after a thousand years? Does Christ's reign end after a thousand years? See the problem with taking the word thousand here literally?

Christ's reign is eternal, so too is the life we received the moment we accepted Him. The word "thousand" in this case - like the word "thousand" in the Psalms - is not a literal thousand years. For just as the word "thousand" in the Psalms represents the infinite, the word "thousand" in Revelation represents the eternal.

The first resurrection - as I believe Hitch correctly asserts - relates to this "resurrection":

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:4-7 (NASB)

Those waiting for another resurrection are missing what it means to be raised to newness of life now.

 

[Stormcrow]

In anticipation of the argument about Satan being bound for a thousand years then freed, this needs to be seen in context, too, which you can find in the letter of Jude:

And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, Jude 1:6 (NASB)

 

[reba]

I have wondered what day 365,000 would be like...then i think If Christ is the Light of the words will there even be days? Days as in, sun rise, sun set, or will there just be SON day! ;)

I believe Hitch has a post, some place, on how much time each person will have to have audience with Jesus. The Words tells us we reign in life....

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


For those who believe there will be some form of return to the OT feast. Think of the small size of Israel and the feast of Tabernacles.

 

[Sinthesis]

I have wondered what day 365,000 would be like...

Probably not a big deal. With leap years you would still have about 250 days left.

 

[jasoncran]

on satan i disagree. being into the occult and any that has done it fully knows that even at repentance the powers you attained arent gone. you learn to ignore what you see and know.

i still see auras, and sense witchraft. i choose to ignore it but once in a while i slip.that doesnt mean satan isnt under control.

storm, i know you will disagree but i speak from expericience in that i have been there to see this stuff.

 

[reba]

Probably not a big deal. With leap years you would still have about 250 days left.

Picky picky picky

 

[Stormcrow]

on satan i disagree. being into the occult and any that has done it fully knows that even at repentance the powers you attained arent gone. you learn to ignore what you see and know.

i still see auras, and sense witchraft. i choose to ignore it but once in a while i slip.that doesnt mean satan isnt under control.

storm, i know you will disagree but i speak from expericience in that i have been there to see this stuff.

Jason...

I've recently come to the conclusion that even though I do believe Satan has been cast into the "Lake of fire", sin still exists (and always will).

Christ's death didn't end sin per se (we still see sin in the world), rather it ended its hold over those who believe, as Paul writes here:

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14 (NASB)

Christ's redemptive work and the manifestation of His kingdom in the world is a process that happens through those who believe. We who believe have been translated into His kingdom, but for those who live outside it there remains only sin and the type of things you describe.

I was into the occult as a teenager once, too, and saw some pretty weird things. But upon accepting Christ I renounced all that stuff and was delivered from fear over (and fascination with) it. Now, does that mean Satan's influence doesn't still exist in the world even though I believe He was "put down" (like a rabid dog) at the Cross?

No. His influence, just as sin, in the world continues. But just as we are enjoined not to let sin reign in us, neither are we to magnify (give undue credence to) Satan's influence over those in the world.

This is the point John makes about the "New Jerusalem" in Revelation when he writes this:

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. Revelation 22:14-15 (NASB)

We who believe are citizens of this holy city now. Yet while there is peace, safety, light, joy, and healing inside the city (Christ's church), outside - where the lost are still enslaved to sin - there are all these other things you and John describe. While we live in this world we live in two worlds (the heavenly and the earthly) but we are to walk as though we live in only one. That is the point Paul makes from the verse I cited in Romans.

 

[jasoncran]

lol that is the jw position but i must wonder what you say when satan is realised from the abyss and draws men to attack jerusalem and fire from heaven comes down.

some can walk away from the occult but others like me are set free but are always alert of it as well that is like saying that once a gay man you can sniff them all out. the flesh isnt redeemed at salvation but the spirit us, the flesh is commanded to be crucified. thats our job to allow the spirit to do that.

 

[Free]

So, too, was John when he wrote this:

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:6 (NASB)

To phrase it in the form of Reba's question, "Who reigns after a thousand years? Does Christ's reign end after a thousand years? See the problem with taking the word thousand here literally?

Christ's reign is eternal, so too is the life we received the moment we accepted Him. The word "thousand" in this case - like the word "thousand" in the Psalms - is not a literal thousand years. For just as the word "thousand" in the Psalms represents the infinite, the word "thousand" in Revelation represents the eternal.

It is a large stretch, to say the least, to claim that the use of "thousand" in Pslam 50:10 means "infinite" and goes far beyond the plain meaning of the text. Look at the context:

Psa 50:7 "Hear, O My people, and I will speak, O Israel, and I will testify against you; I am God, your God!
Psa 50:8 I will not rebuke you for your sacrifices Or your burnt offerings, Which are continually before Me.
Psa 50:9 I will not take a bull from your house, Nor goats out of your folds.
Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills.
Psa 50:11 I know all the birds of the mountains, And the wild beasts of the field are Mine.
Psa 50:12 "If I were hungry, I would not tell you; For the world is Mine, and all its fullness. (NKJV)

So, the most likely meaning of "the cattle on a thousand hills" is that of all cattle in the world. In other words, the context is making it clear that God owns everything, that everything in the world is his. Nothing more.

Similarly, in Revelation 20 we must note the context, paying close attention to the wording of verse 6:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Verse 6 is not saying that Christ will reign a thousand years along with those of the first resurrection. All it says is that those of the first resurrection "shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years". The context is about the people, not Jesus. In other words, Christ is reigning and will always reign, but those of the first resurrection will join alongside him for a thousand years and reign as well. So, again, no, "thousand" does not mean "eternal." It could be a representative number for a long period of time or it could be a literal one thousand years.

Jesus has yet to return and as far as we know the first resurrection has yet to occur and the second resurrection, which is everyone else, believer and unbeliever alike, definitely has not occurred. Keep in mind that these are literal, physical resurrections.

 

[Cyberseeker]

The word "thousand" in this case - like the word "thousand" in the Psalms - is not a literal thousand years.

Good argument and I completely agree.

Now, lets take your logic to "the 144,000." What does it represent?

 

[thethinkingrebel]

You can all thank Reba for this one:

"For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. Psalm 50:10 (NASB)

She then asked, "Who owns the cattle on hill 1001?"

Clearly, the word "thousand" in this verse is meant to convey the idea of vastness: the cattle on an infinite number of hills belong to God. It is not a literal "thousand hills."

Now David was writing this Psalm under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

So, too, was John when he wrote this:

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:6 (NASB)

To phrase it in the form of Reba's question, "Who reigns after a thousand years? Does Christ's reign end after a thousand years? See the problem with taking the word thousand here literally?

Actually no, Jesus hands the reigns over to God the father, and on the new heavens and new earth God dwells with us!

*[[1Co 15:23-28]] WEB* But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christs, at his coming. Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For, ;He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he says, ;All things are put in subjection,&; it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

Christ's reign is eternal, so too is the life we received the moment we accepted Him. The word "thousand" in this case - like the word "thousand" in the Psalms - is not a literal thousand years. For just as the word "thousand" in the Psalms represents the infinite, the word "thousand" in Revelation represents the eternal.

Christ is indeed eternal, He is God and man in one soul. But, Christ has no need to rule, He always put the Father above his own wishes. He follows the Father's will. The millenial kingdom IS a millenial kingdom. Which is followed by a new creation free from sin.

The first resurrection - as I believe Hitch correctly asserts - relates to this "resurrection":

The first resurrection relates to the "dead in Christ", i.e. those who believed rising first. its not saying "those who are dead rise in christ". You are twisting the meaning. The resurrection is Christians to reign in the kingdom, ministering to the final few to be offered salvation.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:4-7 (NASB)

That is not proof, these are two different things. one is regeneration of a person through salvation, the other is a coming resurrection of believers

*[[1Co 15:14-22]] WEB* If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain. Yes, we are found false witnesses of God, because we testified about God that he raised up Christ, whom he didnt raise up, if it is so that the dead are not raised. For if the dead arent raised, neither has Christ been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable. But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Those waiting for another resurrection are missing what it means to be raised to newness of life now.

Not really, the resurrection doesnt come until death. Most Christian denominations have a doctrine of regeneration, no one is missing out on anything. This is false doctrine that denies something clearly established, you should get your concordance and look up Sadducee, you will find something like this...

*[[Mat 22:23-32]] WEB* On that day Sadducees (those who say that there is no resurrection) came to him. They asked him, saying, Teacher, Moses said, If a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed for his brother.; Now there were with us seven brothers. The first married and died, and having no seed left his wife to his brother. In the same way, the second also, and the third, to the seventh. After them all, the woman died. In the resurrection therefore, whose wife will she be of the seven? For they all had her. But Jesus answered them, ;You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like God's angels in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, haven't you read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, ;I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?; God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.;

 

[reba]

12 Is a interesting number in scripture....
12...24.. 12 x 12 = 144

Very interesting number

 

[Cyberseeker]

12 Is a interesting number in scripture....
12...24.. 12 x 12 = 144

Very interesting number

12 = divine government
12 x 12 = 144, the complete kingdom
144 x 1000 = 144000, the vast number of those who make up the kingdom of God

 

[jasoncran]

12 Is a interesting number in scripture....
12...24.. 12 x 12 = 144

Very interesting number

i should see what the hebrew gemetra says on that as the numbers for the LORD is a bit different in that( YHWH is the number 5)jesus would be the number 314.

 

[Stormcrow]

Sorry I haven't been more active. I'm going to take some time off. Health issues and the recent death of a close friend last Saturday are making me question why I should even be here.

Very tired both physically and emotionally right now. Things not looking up any time soon. Hopefully will be back when I can.

Peace. Out.

 

[Cyberseeker]

Sorry I haven't been more active. I'm going to take some time off. Health issues and the recent death of a close friend last Saturday are making me question why I should even be here.

Very tired both physically and emotionally right now. Things not looking up any time soon. Hopefully will be back when I can.

Peace. Out.

Gods strength be with you Stormcrow.

 

[Stormcrow]

It is a large stretch, to say the least, to claim that the use of "thousand" in Pslam 50:10 means "infinite" and goes far beyond the plain meaning of the text.

And yet what does the word "thousand" in this context really convey? The idea that every cow on every hill belongs to God. Therefore, were there an infinite number of hills with an infinite number of cows, they would all belong to Him.

It's hyperbole to make a point.

Verse 6 is not saying that Christ will reign a thousand years along with those of the first resurrection. All it says is that those of the first resurrection "shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years".

Here's the problem, Free: everything from Revelation 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 has to be seen in this context:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3 (NASB)

And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

The immediacy of these events was so important to John, that he literally bookended the book with the words "soon" and "near."

So we have a problem: either "soon" and "near" don't mean to John what they mean to us, or we take these clear, simple, oft-repeated words literally and try to make sense of words like "thousand" in light of its other instances in the Bible.

I'm willing to concede that thousand as used in Revelation may not mean "eternal", however - if that's true - then it, like every other event in the book, needs to be understood as something that was imminent for John and the seven churches in Asia.

How would you explain its clearly symbolic meaning?

 

[Stormcrow]

Gods strength be with you Stormcrow.

Thank you, CS. I've been struggling with diabetes, depression, and the loss of several friends over the past several months (going back to last year), and I've been pretty overwhelmed. I just haven't had the fight in me to argue on the internet much lately.

I'll ease back in as I have the time and energy.

Peace. Out.

 

[Free]

And yet what does the word "thousand" in this context really convey? The idea that every cow on every hill belongs to God. Therefore, were there an infinite number of hills with an infinite number of cows, they would all belong to Him.

It's hyperbole to make a point.

And yet, there aren't an infinite number of hills nor an infinite number of cattle, so that clearly cannot be what is meant. The best meaning is what I gave already: the context is making it clear that God owns everything, that everything in the world is his.

Here's the problem, Free: everything from Revelation 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 has to be seen in this context:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3 (NASB)

And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

The immediacy of these events was so important to John, that he literally bookended the book with the words "soon" and "near."

So we have a problem: either "soon" and "near" don't mean to John what they mean to us, or we take these clear, simple, oft-repeated words literally and try to make sense of words like "thousand" in light of its other instances in the Bible.

I'm willing to concede that thousand as used in Revelation may not mean "eternal", however - if that's true - then it, like every other event in the book, needs to be understood as something that was imminent for John and the seven churches in Asia.

How would you explain its clearly symbolic meaning?

Revelation is apocalyptic literature which uses so much imagery, making it probably the most confusing book in the Bible and we must tread cautiously with it. What makes it more difficult is that it is not written in chronological order and some of the events had already occurred.

Certainly to the believers of that time, and it can be seen in some of the Epistles, there was a feeling of the end coming quickly, especially due to the persecution of believers. We must keep in mind 2 Pet 3 where Peter addresses this very issue:

1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. (ESV)

Revelation does not stand on it's own and we must consider Peter's words. "Soon" and "near" in Revelation do not mean t"soon" and "near" as man considers them. Perhaps the early Christians felt or hoped that the end was near but seeing as how we are here now, two thousand years later and the end has not yet come, we must understand that "soon" in Revelation is God's "soon," not ours.

 

[Sinthesis]

Are their any Babylonians running around wondering why 'the end' never came for them? All that prophecy, yet if it's not literally about us then everybody gets confused. Well it wasn't literally about your great-great-grandmother either.