farouk
Member
[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:
Calvin says, if it's faith, then here is an exposition; then he says, maybe it's grace referred to. (I don't exactly remember; it's years since I looked at his commentary here.
Blessings.
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Why Do We Believe What We Believe?
- Thread starter TRUTH over TRADITION
- Start date
Calvin says, if it's faith, then here is an exposition; then he says, maybe it's grace referred to. (I don't exactly remember; it's years since I looked at his commentary here.
Blessings.
josefnospam
Member
I am not suprised over attacks on the bible as the wholly, infallable, inspired word of God to us today. I trust the KJV as that Bible. You trust in what ever you will. I do know this. In an assembly of God's people, for unity, it is best that all present have the same Bible. This avoids confusion. We request that all use the KJV when assemblied to worship him. When they go their ways they can use and study whatever they like. But in the assembly of the saints, we trust, read and teach and study from the same Bible, not argue over it's contents, or who translated it , wrote it, ect.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
1st off, let me state that the KJ is a VERSION of the Bible and that VERSION is not necessarily one and the same with THE BIBLE. Ryans analogy of the trickle down effect of translating makes sense, and it is very likely that all versions we have at our respective disposals have flaws. This would include the KJV. Some of the flaws are as follows:
1. Erasmus text from which the KJV was derived is considered an inferior Greek text by many scholars.
2. The mistranslation of 1 John 5:7-8 of the KJV
3. The problem is that the King James Bible is filled with readings which have been created by overly zealous scribes! Very few of the distinctive King James readings are demonstrably ancient. And most textual critics just happen to embrace the reasonable proposition that the most ancient MSS tend to be more reliable since they stand closer to the date of the autographs. https://bible.org/article/why-i-do-not-think-king-james-bible-best-translation-available-today
4. The "strain a knat" passage Matthew 23:24
josefnospam
Member
, You trust the torah as the word of God. You have so stated. Christians trust the BIBLE as the word of God. Please don't pretend to be a christian while quoting from the Bible which you said you do not trust. Endorse your own faith ,whatever that is and qoute from whatever Book you believe is inspired. Christians trust Jesus Christ as God and the Bible as the inspired word of God. I'm not sure who you trust? But stand up for your belief and we christians will stand up for our beliefs. Jesus Christ is God almighty cruified for our sins.........Our Bible and our faith tells us so.
G
Guest
Guest
Don't sweat it bro, every once in a while we get a few unbelievers peaking their heads in, curious and what not.
Deborah13
Member
Torah, the first five books of the OT, written by Moses, in Hebrew. Torah scroll, Moses words written in Hebrew and read by the Jewish faith and some Messianic Christian Churches.
Messianic = Messiah
They believe in Jesus as their risen, Savior and Lord. They are members of the body of Christ.
Ryan
Member
For sheer accuracy, absolutely will I trust a Torah scroll, as well as a scroll of the Psalms and the Prophets anyday over our NASB, NIV, KJV, CJB, etc, etc. The New Testament, well what we have from the Greek manuscripts are what we currently have, but I am sure it was not written in the Greek originally. If you want to say the KJV is the ONLY accurate translation, well, you are feeding from the bottom of the mountain, I encourage you to go back to the top of the mountain top, from where it all began.
Anyways, nice attack. Very Christian of you. Speaking of faith. What does it mean? Well, here is a biblical definition of faith from how God designed it with the language he spoke into existence.
Aleph-Mem-Vav-Nun-Hey: (read the opposite direction in Hebrew)
-Bull's Head (Strength, First, Authority)
-Moving Water / Blood
-Tent Peg (Nail Down, Secure)
-Sprouting Seed (Offspring, Continuing)
-Man Standing in Awe (Wow, LOOK!)
Faith without works really is dead. The picture of Emunah (Original Faith) is Strength Watering and Securing the Sprouting Seed and Standing in Awe, Looking at the results.
Real Faith is real work, implementing the Natural Laws given in Torah, and seeing the results of working within those tangible, functional, "Good" Rules. Emunah is really better-translated "Faithfulness." When we are faithful to YHWH's Teaching and Instruction, we experience the results of real, active, living faith.
If faith produces the Tov (Functionality / Goodness) described in Torah, it's real faith, and you can hang your hat on it. Just like we invest strength in following the Natural Laws, planting a seed and watering it and watching it sprout and grow into food, there are a multitude of rich laws that can feed, heal, teach, and guide us if we'll implement them. Faith that implements the Teaching and Instruction of YHWH is recognizeable in the Tov it produces.
I highlighted "faith without works really is dead" due to this being a secular Jewish website, and it is quoting James. That is funny. So is this what faith means to you?
Maybe read a few more of my posts and you will see who my Saviour is thank you very much.
josefnospam
Member
Ryan trusts the torah not the Bible. Of course he finds fault with ANY translation of the Bible. He doesn't trust the Bible. He so stated this as quoted above. What translation of the Bible do you endorse or do you also not believe the Bible? This is not an insult or a putdown. If you believe something else why not say so plainly. Either you believe the Bible as the inspired word of you do not. Either you believe in Jesus Christ as God or you do not. But you cannot believe in God and then use another source as your inspired insperation. It is God and HIS word the BIBLE.
Again this is not a putdown if you believe something else. If you do just say so plainly. I do not judge you are condem you for your beliefs. But a Christian believes Jesus Christ is God and his word to us is the inspired holy Bible. Ryan has stated he believes in the torah. You quoted him as a reason to not trust the Bible. I am a Christian and I hope and pray you are also, but if not, please just state who you belive in and don't claim to be something you are not. Christians believe Jesus Christ is God, cruficed for our sins, risen from the dead, ruling right now on his throne and the BIBLE is his inspired word to us.
josefnospam
Member
Ryan
Member
Did I ever stated I never trusted the Bible??? Maybe not the bible you deem to be the only inspired Word of God the KJV. The translations we have now such as the KJV are not accurate and not true to the language from where they came from. We have Torah scrolls that have been unaltered, or have have had only miniscule alterations. Those are what I would trust more then the translations we have today for serious study. The NT we only have the Greeks, so lets make the best out of what we have.
Ryan
Member
Cherry Picking: If you can't win with the main points, destroy them with the minor details.
I will trust a Torah scroll to be infinitely more accurate, then the Torah version from the KJV, NASB, ALT, CJB, etc. That is what I meant. And yes I trust a Torah scroll because it is the Word of God, isn't it?
josefnospam
Member
I am fasinated in this torah. Is it a book by itself? Is it seperate scrolls? The first five books of the bible we use today? OR is it different than the ones we have in our Bible. I know that some Jews don't believe Jesus was the saviour and they don't believe in the new testament. Or his death for us. They have need of the same saviour we have and they deny his coming. There is only one saviour and he is Jesus Christ the Lord. Just being a physical Jew will not save you. Only Jesus can do that. Again I ask what what is the torah and who uses it and believes only in it? I certainly believe in the first 5 books of the Bible AND the 61 others that follow these in our Bible. So do we have the torah in the first five books of our Bible.
josefnospam
Member
[MENTION=91415]Ryan[/MENTION] I was not trying to insult you or judge anyone for what they believe. Just curious as to what the torah is. It is not the Bible as we have today. Also I have studied Hebrew and can read and understand some of it. And I do so love the first 5 books of the Bible. I also love the other 61 books that follow and tell all about the Christ. Especially the new testament. Does the torah have a new testament? Is it more than 5 books written by Moses?
How does it relate to the Koran. Are these two related or two seperate and unrelated books. These are sincere questions not written to cause problems. Do those who use the torah, believe in the Saviour.? The name of the post is why do we believe what we believe. Without getting into scripture quoting or other long explanations of what is or is not the Bible, just tell me what you believe.
How does it relate to the Koran. Are these two related or two seperate and unrelated books. These are sincere questions not written to cause problems. Do those who use the torah, believe in the Saviour.? The name of the post is why do we believe what we believe. Without getting into scripture quoting or other long explanations of what is or is not the Bible, just tell me what you believe.
Deborah13
Member
I think before you research anything else, that you research the book you read, called the Bible. You need to know about what you are reading.
The first part of Christian Bibles is the Old Testament, which contains, at minimum, the twenty-four books of the Hebrew Bible divided into thirty-nine books and ordered differently than the Hebrew Bible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible
If you think the Torah has anything to do with the Koran, then you have been reading the Koran when you read the first five books of the KJV.
josefnospam
Member
I was asking questions because I do not know much about the koran or torah. I am a little suprised that you would berate me for asking such questions. The Bible I know about but the others I admit I know almost nothing. Any way God Bless you. Still yet my questions remain unanswered and maybe thats good as I need to know more about the Bible and the others are what they are. I have not and will not read the koran. The torah is also a book I have little or no knowledge about, but wonder are the first 5 books of our Bible the torah? Forgive me of my ignorance in this, thats why I ask questions. Reading carefully your post I will look at the HEBREW BIBLE if the link you provided works and I can find it there. I have the kjv Bible but again I have never read or seen the Hebrew Bible.
Deborah13
Member
If your questions remain under answered I am sorry. I gave you a link that explains a lot of them. The link explains the Bible that you read. What it consists of and how it relates to the OT and Hebrew writings. Just read it, please it will help you understand.
I would never berate anyone for asking questions. No sincere question should go unanswered and no sincere question is a stupid question. But I do admit I was somewhat peeved at you making assumptions about another brother, when you admittedly did know what he was talking about. I apologize for being rude.
josefnospam
Member
[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]
I followed the link about the Bible. There is so much and so many different ways people view the Bible. There are many different groups that have their own translation. I was aware of the Catholic Bible including books that are not in the kjv Bible. I found others that have different books and in different orders. To avoid confusing myself I will stay with the KJV bible. I would at some future date attemp to find a copy of the Hebrew bible and look into it.
I do believe that the majority of Christian Churches today use the king james. Im not Catholic so don't know if they use there own version of the bible today or not. I think the Morman church uses there own Bible. And there are others.
Thank you for your help. I learned a lot today. I am thankfull. People are so touchy about what they believe, but the truth will always stand in the long run.
I followed the link about the Bible. There is so much and so many different ways people view the Bible. There are many different groups that have their own translation. I was aware of the Catholic Bible including books that are not in the kjv Bible. I found others that have different books and in different orders. To avoid confusing myself I will stay with the KJV bible. I would at some future date attemp to find a copy of the Hebrew bible and look into it.
I do believe that the majority of Christian Churches today use the king james. Im not Catholic so don't know if they use there own version of the bible today or not. I think the Morman church uses there own Bible. And there are others.
Thank you for your help. I learned a lot today. I am thankfull. People are so touchy about what they believe, but the truth will always stand in the long run.
Ryan
Member
@Deborah13 , thanks for the support. 
@josefnospam , I am sorry if I used terminology you are not aware of. My bad. Same thing when you used that antideluvian word, I didn't know it meant ancient till I looked it up.
Torah is, and only is the first 5 books of the bible. Torah is the foundation upon which the rest of scriptures rest. It cannot be broken, it cannot be altered, and every subsequent verse onwards HAS to agree with what is written inside. Torah has at the root meaning of it the word "yarah", it comes from an archery term to "hit the mark." So when Paul says in Romans 3:23 of falling short of the glory of God, he is using this idea of what Torah is. Torah is also the word that is translated into the Greek "nomos" then into the english as "law". Law is a poor and inaccurate translation as it looks at the law of God as being legislative, versus being parental. So because of centuries of that translation, interpretation and generations of reinforcement, it has been enamored into us that the law is bad or punitive or bondage or for the Jews, and we are now NT believers or the new wineskin so to speak. And it has worked for many, many centuries.
But something renewed is happening and it is coming from the ancient paths of old (Jeremiah 6:16). You see everybody wants to know what will happen in the future. Prophecy teachers teach Revelation and use the imagery, or the prophecies going to the middle of the book. But in the middle of the book you have Isaiah saying 6 or 7 times, and most specifically if you want to know what will happen in the end, you have to go to the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). So you even have the middle telling you to go back to the beginning to know what is going to happen in the end.
So think about this, if you were the bad guy (satan) and you know that embedded in the beginning is his demise, what would your tactic be? Would it be to deceive the elect that the beginning is no longer for NT believers? Oh, that stuff was for the primitive Jew, we are now the upright walking Christian man. I say he would do his best from keeping people from going back to the beginning, and by in large, that tactic has been pretty successful for nearly 1900-1800 years.
I could go on, but you asked for a short response. And there is no offence taken.
God bless
P.S. Look at the first 5 books as being the constitution of the bible, and how well, or how poorly Israel followed its teachings. When they obeyed they were blessed as promised, when they didn't they were cursed as promised. Look at everything after Deuteronomy as commentary.
@josefnospam , I am sorry if I used terminology you are not aware of. My bad. Same thing when you used that antideluvian word, I didn't know it meant ancient till I looked it up.Torah is, and only is the first 5 books of the bible. Torah is the foundation upon which the rest of scriptures rest. It cannot be broken, it cannot be altered, and every subsequent verse onwards HAS to agree with what is written inside. Torah has at the root meaning of it the word "yarah", it comes from an archery term to "hit the mark." So when Paul says in Romans 3:23 of falling short of the glory of God, he is using this idea of what Torah is. Torah is also the word that is translated into the Greek "nomos" then into the english as "law". Law is a poor and inaccurate translation as it looks at the law of God as being legislative, versus being parental. So because of centuries of that translation, interpretation and generations of reinforcement, it has been enamored into us that the law is bad or punitive or bondage or for the Jews, and we are now NT believers or the new wineskin so to speak. And it has worked for many, many centuries.
But something renewed is happening and it is coming from the ancient paths of old (Jeremiah 6:16). You see everybody wants to know what will happen in the future. Prophecy teachers teach Revelation and use the imagery, or the prophecies going to the middle of the book. But in the middle of the book you have Isaiah saying 6 or 7 times, and most specifically if you want to know what will happen in the end, you have to go to the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). So you even have the middle telling you to go back to the beginning to know what is going to happen in the end.
So think about this, if you were the bad guy (satan) and you know that embedded in the beginning is his demise, what would your tactic be? Would it be to deceive the elect that the beginning is no longer for NT believers? Oh, that stuff was for the primitive Jew, we are now the upright walking Christian man. I say he would do his best from keeping people from going back to the beginning, and by in large, that tactic has been pretty successful for nearly 1900-1800 years.
I could go on, but you asked for a short response. And there is no offence taken.
God bless
P.S. Look at the first 5 books as being the constitution of the bible, and how well, or how poorly Israel followed its teachings. When they obeyed they were blessed as promised, when they didn't they were cursed as promised. Look at everything after Deuteronomy as commentary.
Deborah13
Member
I don't know about the majority of churches. I think, most let people bring whatever they choose. Most are the same thing in modern English, that modern people can easily read.
The Mormons use the KJV, but unfortunately they really believe their book of Mormon more.
The Catholic Bible has more books in the OT, not in the NT. They have some added verses in books like Daniel.
If you go to http://www.biblegateway.com you will find the whole Bible online and easily read from many different versions and languages. One of the Bible versions is the "Orthodox Jewish Bible" OT and NT (Christian Jews) and even the 1599 Geneva Bible, a predecessor of the KJV.
It also has references from the Reformed Study Bible and Matthew Henry (Calvinist) Commentary.
Enjoy, glad it was a help. We can never stop learning there just too much to know.
Deborah13
Member
Boy, did you hit the mark with this statement. When young Christians come into the church they are taught wrongly about the Law and why God gave it. Some churches say it's bad, some teach it so strongly without enough grace, that a young Christian is indoctrinated into angry, wrathful, God. Rather than a loving Father, that gave the rules of a peaceful, joyful, plentiful life. He didn't want to have to do that but they wouldn't listen. Churches need to teach the OT more, imo.