Why Do We Believe What We Believe?

[Ryan]

Law is a poor and inaccurate translation as it looks at the law of God as being legislative, versus being parental.

Boy, did you hit the mark with this statement. When young Christians come into the church they are taught wrongly about the Law and why God gave it. Some churches say it's bad, some teach it so strongly without enough grace, that a young Christian is indoctrinated into angry, wrathful, God. Rather than a loving Father, that gave the rules of a peaceful, joyful, plentiful life. He didn't want to have to do that but they wouldn't listen. Churches need to teach the OT more, imo.

Amen.

If you look at legalism in this way it would be like forgetting Passover, and going straight to Mt. Sinai bypassing the Passover Lamb. That is legalism.

But most doctrine nowadays is just teaching the Passover Lamb, and the journey stops there forgetting they eventually moved onto Mt. Sinai.

The real story and the journey we are called to make is to have the blood of the Passover Lamb covering us, and moving onto Mt. Sinai because we have a Father who loves us and knows what is best for us. That is the ultimate parent.

 

[josefnospam]

Beliefs can have harmful consequences

yes they can. Some beliefs that come from other translation can cause serious problems. I believe that the kjv Bible is the word of God to us today. There is no harmfull consequences to believing the word of it with my heart, mind and soul. If you do not like it thats fine, but it IS the word of God although you may disagree as you like. I don't need to question or wonder if its true. I KNOW it is and trust in him. My heart is not hardened by my belief in the KJV but blessed that I can trust it as his word. I don't condem other translations, or people who use them. I will use and trust the kjv and I have been blessed and not only I but countless others by its words thru out its exsistence. Any attemp to dis-credit the book will gain no support or help from me. You belive what you will but I believe in his word as written in the KJV bible.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I was asking questions because I do not know much about the koran or torah.
Forgive me of my ignorance in this, thats why I ask questions.

The quotes above coupled with quotes like what you say below are the reasons why a thread like this needs to be made and paid attention to. You admittedly profess your ignorance related to the Bible, yet you have formed an OPINION that you describe as unshakable about it before having enough knowledge or doing a requisite amount of studying that would allow you to make an informed decision.
That is why I ask the question of; Why you believe what you believe?

I believe that the kjv Bible is the word of God to us today. There is no harmfull consequences to believing the word of it with my heart, mind and soul. If you do not like it thats fine, but it IS the word of God although you may disagree as you like. I don't need to question or wonder if its true. I KNOW it is and trust in him. My heart is not hardened by my belief in the KJV but blessed that I can trust it as his word.

I do not intend to me mean, but I must be blunt here so there is no misunderstanding. In light of the fact that you said what I initially quoted at the beginning of this post and then said what I quoted above, one wonders what you could be thinking that would allow you to say both things. It's as if you are a blind witness describing a crime scene. Until you do you due diligence and study yourself approved how can you effect your assertions to have any merit?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

You belive what you will but I believe in his word as written in the KJV bible.

It always bothers me when I hear someone say "believe what you want and I'll believe what I want." I have no desire to believe what I want. My desire is to know and believe what is true and right. Truth is what I want to dictate my world view and mold my beliefs. I do not have the liberty of picking something I want to believe then running with it. As an adult that values honesty, it is my duty to question and vet out my beliefs and preconceptions to insure they have a good foundation and when they do not, I must be intellectually honest and casted those flawed beliefs aside.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

It always bothers me when I hear someone say "believe what you want and I'll believe what I want." I have no desire to believe what I want. My desire is to know and believe what is true and right. Truth is what I want to dictate my world view and mold my beliefs. I do not have the liberty of picking something I want to believe then running with it. As an adult that values honesty, it is my duty to question and vet out my beliefs and preconceptions to insure they have a good foundation and when they do not, I must be intellectually honest and casted those flawed beliefs aside.

Well said. I no more have control over what I believe, than what my eye color or hair color is. Sure, I can mask it and say one thing or want another, but I can't convince myself I am a natural redhead or that the deep blue eyes are my true color instead of contacts.

 

[Sinthesis]

It is important to not confuse the Word of God with the medium/channel(translation) in which it is conveyed to us. Every translation is God's message encoded by men, which we must then decode to arrive at the original message. The original message is divine, however every translation is subject to human error in encoding and decoding, not to mention noise from cultural assumptions. People get biblical meanings wrong all the time.

Was the original message not also a translation by man from what they believed he was saying into Hebrew?

Was God speaking to them in a language other than Hebrew? It is reasonable to assume that the message was given in the language in which it was first recorded, thus not a translation. However that is not to say that someone with a knowledge of the original language can't arrive at a misunderstanding, because language changes over time. Internal consistency of message is one way to test meaning.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe him to have been a man

Well, you are half right. That's better than nothing.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

Was God speaking to them in a language other than Hebrew? It is reasonable to assume that the message was given in the language in which it was first recorded, thus not a translation. However that is not to say that someone with a knowledge of the original language can't arrive at a misunderstanding, because language changes over time. Internal consistency of message is one way to test meaning.

Do they ever say that he was speaking to them in Hebrew, or is it more likely that since they spoke Hebrew that is the only language they knew and the only language they could write?

 

[TheBeardedDude]

Well, you are half right. That's better than nothing.

I believe the half that is corroborated by history, but even then it is shaky as to whether or not he even existed at all.

 

[Deborah13]

but even then it is shaky as to whether or not he even existed at all.

So in fact, you don't really believe He was a man, just maybe?

 

[TheBeardedDude]

So in fact, you don't really believe He was a man, just maybe?

I don't know if he was real or not, but I believe it more likely that a man that fits that description existed than not.

Belief =/= knowledge
but belief is based upon knowledge
Savvy?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I previously made a statement about choosing beliefs that I'd like to amend. My statements basically said that it was not possible to decide or choose what you wish to believe and that our beliefs are formed based on our environment, our knowledge, and what we are exposed to. What I failed to consider is that we can in fact choose to belief something if in our own mind, we are convinced that something can happen or is true. I thought back to my days in competitive athletics and how our teams alway believed we would win our competitions. That belief was often always based on anything tangible, but instead on our hope foe success and victory. Hope can breed faith and conviction just as evidence, education, and circumstances can.

 

[josefnospam]

My desire is to know and believe what is true and right.

[MENTION=96787]TheBeardedDude[/MENTION]
The Word of God is of the highest possible truth in this world. And it is recorded for us to read, study and Learn from the Bible. You want truth.
Look in a Bible........No greater truth exsists for us. Of course if you reject it thats on you. But this truth you say you desire is right before your eyes this very day. No one alive today can force you to believe it. There is no better foundation in the world

 

[ejected]

There is one better foundation. That is the Spirit within us. The word of God is a dead letter, without the Spirit.

Men read the bible without the indwelling Spirit of God and we end up with thousands of denominations competing against one another. 33,820 counted in the year 2000. So much for Christ's command for unity, one accord, one gospel, no divisions.

You have no need of man to teach you but the Spirit within you will teach you all things. (In His timing).(Mine) .1John2:27.

The bible can become an idol for most folks. We use our reason to interpret and understand. Our reason is of the 'old man'.

The scriptures are of no private interpretation. 2Peter1:20. Using fleshly reason is a private or personal interpretation that leads to destruction and confusion.

 

[Free]

There is one better foundation. That is the Spirit within us. The word of God is a dead letter, without the Spirit.

Men read the bible without the indwelling Spirit of God and we end up with thousands of denominations competing against one another. 33,820 counted in the year 2000. So much for Christ's command for unity, one accord, one gospel, no divisions.

You have no need of man to teach you but the Spirit within you will teach you all things. (In His timing).(Mine) .1John2:27.

There are numerous reasons for the number of denominations, very much including those who claim to solely rely on the Spirit and neglect their God given reason.

The bible can become an idol for most folks.

Anything can become an idol.

We use our reason to interpret and understand. Our reason is of the 'old man'.

Please provide Scriptural proof.

The scriptures are of no private interpretation. 2Peter1:20. Using fleshly reason is a private or personal interpretation that leads to destruction and confusion.

That is not what that verse says.

 

[ejected]

Scripture proof.
In me dwells no good thing.
I count all my learning as dung.
The Spirit in you will teach you all things.
Peter used common sense and reason with Christ. Jesus said 'get thee behind Me satan'.
Except a man be born from above he cannot see/understand the kingdom of God.
The law and the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Jesus said I do nothing but what my Father (not reason or logic) tells me.
Christ's followers were told to wait in Jerusalem till the Holy Spirit comes on them. He knew that there earthly wisdom, logic, learning, and reason were worthless. But when they were filled with the Spirit of God they turned the whole world upside down for Christ.
His disciples learned from Him for 3 years. But it was a dead letter till the Spirit came upon them.
Again Paul counted all his learning, education, religious training and studies as dung after finding Christ and having His Spirit indwelling him teaching him all things.

 

[reba]

Scripture proof.
In me dwells no good thing.

Doesn't the Spirit dwell in you?

I count all my learning as dung.
The Spirit in you will teach you all things.

when you learn from the Spirit is that learning 'as dung'


Peter used common sense and reason with Christ. Jesus said 'get thee behind Me satan'.
Except a man be born from above he cannot see/understand the kingdom of God.
The law and the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Jesus said I do nothing but what my Father (not reason or logic) tells me.
Christ's followers were told to wait in Jerusalem till the Holy Spirit comes on them. He knew that there earthly wisdom, logic, learning, and reason were worthless. But when they were filled with the Spirit of God they turned the whole world upside down for Christ.
His disciples learned from Him for 3 years. But it was a dead letter till the Spirit came upon them.
Again Paul counted all his learning, education, religious training and studies as dung after finding Christ and having His Spirit indwelling him teaching him all things.

 

[Free]

Scripture proof.
In me dwells no good thing.
I count all my learning as dung.
The Spirit in you will teach you all things.
Peter used common sense and reason with Christ. Jesus said 'get thee behind Me satan'.
Except a man be born from above he cannot see/understand the kingdom of God.
The law and the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Jesus said I do nothing but what my Father (not reason or logic) tells me.
Christ's followers were told to wait in Jerusalem till the Holy Spirit comes on them. He knew that there earthly wisdom, logic, learning, and reason were worthless. But when they were filled with the Spirit of God they turned the whole world upside down for Christ.
His disciples learned from Him for 3 years. But it was a dead letter till the Spirit came upon them.
Again Paul counted all his learning, education, religious training and studies as dung after finding Christ and having His Spirit indwelling him teaching him all things.

None of that is proof of what you claimed. You didn't even provide the passages where those things are found, never mind explain how it proves your point. You are taking those passages out of context and making them say something they are not. So what do we see in Scripture, and from Paul in particular?

Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Act 17:3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ."

Act 17:16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols.
Act 17:17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there.

Act 18:1 After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth.
Act 18:2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them,
Act 18:3 and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Act 18:19 And they came to Ephesus, and he left them there, but he himself went into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.

Act 24:24 After some days Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, and he sent for Paul and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus.
Act 24:25 And as he reasoned about righteousness and self-control and the coming judgment, Felix was alarmed and said, "Go away for the present. When I get an opportunity I will summon you."

1Pe_3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

(All from the ESV).

As you can clearly see, Paul often used reason and Peter's exhortation to be "prepared to make a defense" implies the use of reason. There is much more biblical proof that can be given to support the use of reason but I just don't have the time right now. Rational thought is a gift from a rational God. We simply cannot have any sort of meaningful communication or relationship without reason.

Do not treat so poorly something that God has given us and fully expects us to use.

 

[farouk]

Law is a poor and inaccurate translation as it looks at the law of God as being legislative, versus being parental.

Boy, did you hit the mark with this statement. When young Christians come into the church they are taught wrongly about the Law and why God gave it. Some churches say it's bad, some teach it so strongly without enough grace, that a young Christian is indoctrinated into angry, wrathful, God. Rather than a loving Father, that gave the rules of a peaceful, joyful, plentiful life. He didn't want to have to do that but they wouldn't listen. Churches need to teach the OT more, imo.

Amen.

If you look at legalism in this way it would be like forgetting Passover, and going straight to Mt. Sinai bypassing the Passover Lamb. That is legalism.

But most doctrine nowadays is just teaching the Passover Lamb, and the journey stops there forgetting they eventually moved onto Mt. Sinai.

The real story and the journey we are called to make is to have the blood of the Passover Lamb covering us, and moving onto Mt. Sinai because we have a Father who loves us and knows what is best for us. That is the ultimate parent.

Galatians and Romans make it clear that the New Testament believer is not under the law.

Romans 3 makes it clear that it's faith in the Lord Jesus through the imputation of 'the righteousness of God out side the law' that is at the heart of the believer's justification.

 

[Deborah13]

Law is a poor and inaccurate translation as it looks at the law of God as being legislative, versus being parental.

Boy, did you hit the mark with this statement. When young Christians come into the church they are taught wrongly about the Law and why God gave it. Some churches say it's bad, some teach it so strongly without enough grace, that a young Christian is indoctrinated into angry, wrathful, God. Rather than a loving Father, that gave the rules of a peaceful, joyful, plentiful life. He didn't want to have to do that but they wouldn't listen. Churches need to teach the OT more, imo.

Amen.

If you look at legalism in this way it would be like forgetting Passover, and going straight to Mt. Sinai bypassing the Passover Lamb. That is legalism.

But most doctrine nowadays is just teaching the Passover Lamb, and the journey stops there forgetting they eventually moved onto Mt. Sinai.

The real story and the journey we are called to make is to have the blood of the Passover Lamb covering us, and moving onto Mt. Sinai because we have a Father who loves us and knows what is best for us. That is the ultimate parent.

Galatians and Romans make it clear that the New Testament believer is not under the law.

Romans 3 makes it clear that it's faith in the Lord Jesus through the imputation of 'the righteousness of God out side the law' that is at the heart of the believer's justification.

You know what is odd, I have learned more over the past 3-4 years about the OT, the law, the high priest garments, etc. from a radical grace preacher. And it has been so much fun to learn. It has strengthen me in my faith. Every time he teaches something from the OT he shows how it is a picture of our Savior.
He has been accused of not teaching against sin. How will people know that they need to not sin? The more one just falls in love with our God of love, that's how. Believers know they shouldn't sin. What they need to know is how to overcome. By His grace.
When I look at the Law now, I see a list of don't do this because I love you, do that to show my love to others and vice versa. It the same as me saying to my grandson, don't go out in the street, you could get hit by a car. Share you toys with your sister, that be the little one, he's three. The Law wasn't ever given to make anyone righteous, it was to show them they needed a Savior. To make them turn to God in faith for mercy and grace. Because we all mess up. Blessings