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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
"Truth does not become more true if the whole world were to accept it; nor does it become less true if the whole world were to reject it." --- Maimonides
JLB
Not necessarily. Mike quoted Rom. 10:9, the context of which is showing that Jesus is YHVH, that confessing such is essential to salvation.
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (ESV)
Note that Paul is drawing a parallel between verses 9 and 13, that the confession in verse 9 is the same as that in verse 13. And verse 13 is a direct quote from Joel 2:32, where LORD is YHVH:
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls. (ESV)
In other words, to confess Jesus is Lord is the fulfillment of Joel 2:32. This means one has to confess Jesus as YHVH.
It couldn't be any clearer.
We see this same analogy drawn from Isaiah, as well by John.
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. [Isaiah saw YHWH]
42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. John 12:39-42
Believing without the obedience of confessing Him as Lord, YHWH = No Salvation.
JLB
J
jocor
Guest
I can't speak for Mike, but I do not believe he quoted Romans 10:9 to show "Jesus is YHVH". That is you all trying to make this thread go in a different direction. He clearly defined what he meant. Why not answer his OP in the way he intended? Is "Jesus" "the focus center of your attention in all you do, all you choose, and all you involve yourself in"?
I love Brother Mike, think I read what he is asking though I too can be wrong, I see him asking whether Jesus is Lord to us. Is He leading us as One we believe on and trust?
Of course Jesus is Jehovah (LORD of Isa 40:3) whether we count Him as such or not. He is Emmanuel (Mat 1:23), God with us, but as we read in Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation . . .
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
You can also read Isa 43:3, Isa 43:11, and Isa 43:14.
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13
This is a reference to Isaiah 43:11
There is only One Savior, YHWH, the Lord God of Israel, Who became flesh and died for our sins on the cross, Jesus Christ.
JLB
I guess that just begs the question of whether or not Jesus can truly be Lord without being LORD.
turnorburn
Member
i thought when Jesus said this the matter was settled for all time..
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
It was settled.
Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God who became flesh and redeemed us with His blood. John 1:1-3,14 -
1 Timothy 3:16
He is God the Savior. Titus 2:13
Isaiah 43:11
It is forever settled in heaven.
JLB
stovebolts
Member
My Brother,
I don't have a spirit of dissention, let alone argument. I am, however, allowed my own view.
Simply Put, was Cesar YHVH? He claimed to be Lord as well... and in the greek, there is no difference in the word. However, LORD in the Hebrew is Yud Hey Vod Hey (YHVH).
Psalms 110:1 <<A Psalm of David.>> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
LORD --> Lord Not the same word...
Again, you are free to your view. But I agree with Mike and his opening statement. Jesus is Lord.
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stovebolts
Member
It is relativism and relativism is a reality for many. What does Paul say to those who eat meat offered to idols? Does he not say to him that believes it is sin, then it is sin to that person. It's about conscience and Paul understands the conscience is relative to one's view. He goes as far as to say that he would not eat meat.. even though he is free to eat meat.
And you know what Free, I'm disappointed you would actually try to put a stumbling block in front of me to question my salvation, or to infer that I am not saved.
You know... I had somebody that I respected put a stumbling block in front of me... and I questioned my Baptism when I was 13. I questioned if I were really "saved" or not. Shame on them... and shame on you Free. I thought you would have known be better than that.
stovebolts
Member
This is a very good passage.
Did you ever wonder about this passage?
Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Do you think they didn't know God's name?
Better yet...
Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name LORD was I not known to them.
What then does I AM mean?
Anyway, I am only sharing, not arguing.
When you reject the truth of the scriptures, in favor of "your own view" of the truth, then that is the very definition of relativism.
...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:13-14
For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
Isaiah 43:3
My confession is Jesus Christ is the Lord God of Israel, YHWH the Great God and Savior.
Do you see that these are two different Lord's?
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
JLB
Yes, that's why they took up stones to stone Him, when He invoked the Name of YHWH as His own.
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59
JLB
stovebolts
Member
JLB
It saddens me that you can have such a mean spirit at times reflecting such a need to belittle others. It doesn't have to be this way. Stop building false cases against people, especially those who are your brother in Christ.
Not that I have a need to justify myself, but for your own understanding, and for those who may be questioning my walk with the Lord, Jesus is Lord of my life and my testimony bears that truth for those who really know me.
Paul writes that God's foolishness is wiser than man's wisdom. That is to say we need to be careful with absolutes and deductive reasoning when it comes to how God works in each of our lives, and the lives of others around us. When we deal with absolutes, it' easy to turn God into an idol and create an environment of tribalism with the mentality of us and them. Why? Because it's easy to know much about our Lord while never really getting to know our Lord.
You put so much emphasis on your knowledge of God, but you show little of His attributes at times. God desires mercy, not sacrifice. This is to say that through mercy, we rebuild broken relationships because life is fragile while sacrifice, if not performed in the spirit becomes an act of piety which resolves into an exchange void of relationship, thus, God becomes an idol.. a point of exchange.
It is clear that we have a different understanding on this matter. Yet I have not berated you into bending your understanding toward mine to which I am now being charged with relativism, as if this is an evil trait. If anything, I have clearly stated that if your belief draws you into a deeper relationship with our Lord, then I am happy for you. But I don't see your view as drawing you into a deeper relationship. What I see, is that you know a lot about our Lord and our God and you have zeal for what you believe. Yet you have not found freedom in Christ and you show that you are still a slave to this world. Point in case... You say that I AM is God, and God is Jehovah and Jehovah is Jesus and Jesus is I AM. Yet you have not shown that you understand what I AM communicates, let alone who God is as denoted through his divine name YHVH (Jehovah if you please), let alone God Almighty. How then are we to further our discussion when the reasoning is circular and void of understanding?
I leave you with these thoughts, and I pray you take them to heart.
Galatians 5:14-17 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
It saddens me that you can have such a mean spirit at times reflecting such a need to belittle others. It doesn't have to be this way. Stop building false cases against people, especially those who are your brother in Christ.
Not that I have a need to justify myself, but for your own understanding, and for those who may be questioning my walk with the Lord, Jesus is Lord of my life and my testimony bears that truth for those who really know me.
Paul writes that God's foolishness is wiser than man's wisdom. That is to say we need to be careful with absolutes and deductive reasoning when it comes to how God works in each of our lives, and the lives of others around us. When we deal with absolutes, it' easy to turn God into an idol and create an environment of tribalism with the mentality of us and them. Why? Because it's easy to know much about our Lord while never really getting to know our Lord.
You put so much emphasis on your knowledge of God, but you show little of His attributes at times. God desires mercy, not sacrifice. This is to say that through mercy, we rebuild broken relationships because life is fragile while sacrifice, if not performed in the spirit becomes an act of piety which resolves into an exchange void of relationship, thus, God becomes an idol.. a point of exchange.
It is clear that we have a different understanding on this matter. Yet I have not berated you into bending your understanding toward mine to which I am now being charged with relativism, as if this is an evil trait. If anything, I have clearly stated that if your belief draws you into a deeper relationship with our Lord, then I am happy for you. But I don't see your view as drawing you into a deeper relationship. What I see, is that you know a lot about our Lord and our God and you have zeal for what you believe. Yet you have not found freedom in Christ and you show that you are still a slave to this world. Point in case... You say that I AM is God, and God is Jehovah and Jehovah is Jesus and Jesus is I AM. Yet you have not shown that you understand what I AM communicates, let alone who God is as denoted through his divine name YHVH (Jehovah if you please), let alone God Almighty. How then are we to further our discussion when the reasoning is circular and void of understanding?
I leave you with these thoughts, and I pray you take them to heart.
Galatians 5:14-17 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
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J
jocor
Guest
I'll stick with Peter's testimony;
Acts 3:13 - The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Yeshua is the SON of YHWH Elohim (God) of Israel, not YHWH himself.
Yes Jesus is the only Begotton of the Father.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. And the Word became flesh... John 1:1-3, 14
The Word is God, and it is the Word that became flesh.
He became a man.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
God was manifested in the flesh,
No one is denying Jesus was a man, and became flesh, having become a little lower than the angels, and took on the likeness of sinful flesh.
He is God manifested in the flesh.
He is God our Savior.
He is the LORD of lords.
Please share with me what you claim that He was, before He became flesh?
JLB
Here is the same question I have asked you several times with no answer.
Based on these scriptures, what was Jesus before He became flesh?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. And the Word became flesh... John 1:1-3, 14
The Word is God, and it is the Word that became flesh.
He became a man.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
God was manifested in the flesh,
- Jesus was a man before He became flesh?
- Jesus was an angel before He became flesh?
- Jesus was _______ before He became flesh?
Please provide the scriptures that validate your answer.
JLB