That's for believer and unbeliever and we need to defend this from the Scriptures.
I have attempted to deal with some of these issues in my article, Is hell fair?
Oz
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Hell, what is it?
- Thread starter Nathan
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That's for believer and unbeliever and we need to defend this from the Scriptures.
I have attempted to deal with some of these issues in my article, Is hell fair?
Oz
th1b.taylor
Member
I see, no discussion... narrow minded, that!
Not narrow minded brother. I thought you could read an article that gives more information than I could raise in this thread.
I seem to have made an error. I'm more than happy to raise the matters covered in my article in this thread. Is that what you want?
Since when was giving a link an indication of being "narrow minded"?
Oz
jasonc
Member
Coming from a background of one who didn't believe in hell,hades etc that's a good apologetic
Cygnus
Member
Hell/Hades could not be represented as literal fire because it is also described as a place of darkness (see Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; 2 Peter 2:17; Jude 1:13). Fire and darkness are mutually exclusive terms so hell’s description cannot be literal.
Darkness often has the meaning of the lack of light......not just photons but also spiritual.
Yes, from your limited human perspective. What do you think spiritual darkness is?
I would address your other "fiery" bullets....but my reply would be the same.
What darkness does this speak of? 1 John 2:10 Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, and there is no cause of stumbling in him. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness. He does not know where he is going, because the darknesshas blinded his eyes.
R
Runner
Guest
If one alternative is "eternal life in God's kingdom," it scarcely seems to me to make any difference whether the other option is (A) annihilation, (B) eternal separation from God, (C) fiery torment, or (D) annihilation after fiery torment. It's difficult for me to believe that if one alternative is eternal life in God's kingdom, any nonbeliever would say "Well, hey, if the 'only' consequence of remaining in unbelief is A or B, I'm OK with that!" Worrying about the precise nature of Hell almost sounds like we think we have to "sell" eternal life in God's kingdom by pushing the most hideous vision of Hell, Granted, a literal reading of Scripture would indeed suggest a pretty hideous vision. My point about Hell being something worthy of the perfectly holy, just and loving Creator is really aimed at Christians who are troubled by the notion of eternal fiery torment. My point is not "The perfectly holy, just and loving Creator would never subject anyone to eternal fiery torment" but rather "Even if Hell turns out to be exactly as the Bible describes, we will ultimately see that this is worthy of the perfectly just, holy and loving Creator even if it strikes us as overly harsh now."
LovethroughDove
Member
Luke 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment.................... Torment
Luke 16:24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
.................part of that torment is fire
Luke 16:25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.................No comfort
Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'.................... No hope
Luke 16:24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
.................part of that torment is fire
Luke 16:25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.................No comfort
Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'.................... No hope
That would be Hades, not hell.
Thanks for the encouragement, Jason.
The question is often asked how it can be fair for temporal sin to earn the consequence of eternal punishment in Hades-Gehenna?
I’m of the view that this matter rises or falls on (1) our understanding of the attribute of God's eternity, (2) the nature of human beings, and (3) whether or not we think the human soul lives forever. If our souls are not eternal, then sins do not have eternal consequences. They are temporary. But that is not the case.
We are beings who live forever. We are made for an eternal relationship with God, who is the eternal Being. Therefore to sin against the eternal God, reject his overtures to us, has eternal consequences.
The human soul/spirit is immortal according to a number of OT and NT Scriptures: Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19.
Daniel 12:2 (NIRV) says, “Many people who lie dead in their graves will wake up. Some will rise up to life that will never end. Others will rise up to shame that will never end.”
Jesus gave a similar message when he stated that said that the wicked “will go away to be punished forever. But those who have done what is right will receive eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46 NIRV)
I conclude that when we think of sins as being temporal and not having eternal consequences, then we begin to think that eternal hell is unfair.
When I understand the eternal nature of sins, and the eternal attribute of the One against whom I sin, I understand why Jesus’ sacrifice for sin was the necessary sacrifice. Is it fair that the eternal Son of God had to be sacrificed for temporal sins? That’s the wrong question. The eternal Son of God was sacrificed on the cross because sin has eternal consequences.
Hebrew 7:27 states, ‘He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself’ (ESV). [from my article, Is hell fair?]
Oz
Nice try, Cygnus.
Hell is a place of darkness. Jude 1:13 speaks of "the blackness of darkness" ("very black darkness" NIRV) to which false teachers will be confined forever.
Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30 associate “gnashing of teeth” or "grind their teeth" (Matt 8:12 NIRV) with “outer darkness”.
So is your "lack of light" for "darkness" the cause of people gnashing their teeth in hell?
Oz
Runner,
Would you please write in paragraphs to assist my understanding?
The nature of hell (Hades, Gehenna) matters because we are dealing with the truth of Scripture. This is not any kind of document. It is God-breathed Scripture that needs to be interpreted accurately.
It also is an aspect of our Gospel presentation. Because of the consequences of unforgiven sin, we need to warn people of what happens at death if they have not repented:
Heb 9:27 (NIV) warns of the consequences: 'Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment'.
Oz
Cygnus
Member
Better than a nice try. darkness comes in several flavors.
BTW, when you said...."The eternal Son of God was sacrificed on the cross because sin has eternal consequences."....I agree.
Cygnus
Member
Can a person repent if God hasn't given them the ability to repent? I say no. What say you?
Nathan
Member
You believe the human soul is immortal like God? Did satan tell the truth in the Garden?
Genesis 3:4-5(ESV) But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
So what are the eternal consequences for sin from your understanding of Scripture?
What do the Scriptures state? '3 This is good, and it pleases God our Savior. 4 He wants all people to be saved. He wants them to come to know the truth' (1 Tim 2:3-4 NIRV).
What did Jesus say? 'And I, when I am lifted up [exalted] from the earth, will draw all people to myself'.
Jesus enables ALL to repent. He draws ALL but people refuse. How do I know? The Bible tells me so: 'The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness (Rom 1:18 NIV).
Oz
Where did I state that?
Nathan
Member
You stated you believed the human soul is immortal correct? Are there different kinds of immortality? We know God is immortal for sure. If human souls were immortal, they would have to be like God.
Post #69
R
Runner
Guest
You want a 9-line post broken into paragraphs, but in half your posts you expect people to go read your blog?
Limiting ourselves to the NT, by far the most frequent description of Hell relates to "fire." See Matthew 5:22, 13:42, 18:19 and 25:41; Mark 9:43, 9:45 and 9:47; Luke 16:24; Revelation 20:14; and undoubtedly others.
If we were going to take the Bible at all literally, why would we not conclude that "fire" is indeed the predominate form of punishment in Hell? There are certainly many other forms of torment - why would the NT keep saying "fire" unless it meant fire?
You say in post #57 that "fire" must be metaphorical because the NT also refers to Hell as a place of "darkness." Darkness, you say, is inconsistent with fire.
Considering that "fire" is the predominate description, why would we not conclude that "darkness" is the metaphorical term?
Why would we conclude that there is any inconsistency? God being omnipotent, could He not prepare a place that is both fiery and dark - and wouldn't that be even more frightening?
Could not Hell include assorted types of punishments - lakes of fire, pits of darkness, endless reruns of the Benny Hill Show?
In short, you conclude that the references to "fire" must be metaphorical for reasons that seem specious to me. If we want to be faithful Bible literalists, we should be warning nonbelievers that Hell is a place of dark, fiery torment - which it may well be.Why would we conclude that there is any inconsistency? God being omnipotent, could He not prepare a place that is both fiery and dark - and wouldn't that be even more frightening?
Could not Hell include assorted types of punishments - lakes of fire, pits of darkness, endless reruns of the Benny Hill Show?
You say the biblical verses on Hell must be "interpreted accurately" and presented to unbelievers as a warning "of what happens at death if they have not repented." But how do you do that if you have concluded that the predominate references (i.e., to "fire") are metaphorical? Metaphors for what?
I agree that the descriptions of Hell may well be metaphorical - but they may well not be. If we describe Hell to unbelievers as a place of dark, fiery torment, we can't go wrong. If this is literally true, fine. If this is only metaphorically true, fine - at least we've used the biblical metaphor.
What it boils down to is that we can either tell unbelievers Hell is a place of dark, fiery torment because that's what the Bible says - or we can tell them "Whatever it is, it's not pleasant and it's not a place you want to be."
As for the possibility of the annihilation of the unsaved, I was merely acknowledging the existence of this view, not promoting it. It is not entirely without biblical support. If anyone is seriously interested in the various concepts of Hell, I would refer them to Four Views on Hell, https://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-Hell-William-Crockett/dp/0310212685, which is excellent. (Annihilation is one of the four views represented - being defended by the late Clark Pinnock, who was not exactly a lightweight.)
The only point I've really made on this thread is primarily directed at Christians: Whatever Hell proves to be, whether fiery torment or something else - we can be confident that it will be worthy of the perfectly holy, just and loving Creator of the universe.
You seem to take issue with my view as not being precise enough - but you then shoot yourself in the foot by concluding that the biblical description of fiery torment is metaphorical when (1) there is no real reason to regard it as metaphorical, and (2) this leaves you with an understanding of Hell that is really no more precise than what I am suggesting.
Ever heard that human beings are made in the likeness or image of God (Gen 1:26-27)???
There is only one Person who is truly immortal – God Himself, as stated in 1 Tim. 6:15-16 (ESV), “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion.” Therefore, only God is immortal in the sense that He is the Owner and Originator of human life and he Himself has always existed.
Our immortality of the soul is in a derived sense and applies to all people, believers and unbelievers. Second Timothy 1:10 (ESV) speaks of God’s purpose and grace “which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”
I have found that many people (eg Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists) who object to the immortality of the soul are those who reject eternal punishment in hell for unbelievers. Let’s check out what the Bible says.
By immortality of the soul, I mean “the belief that human persons, at least in their spiritual dimension, consciously survive death and live on forever” (Geisler 1999:350). Or, for human beings, immortality means “deathlessness” (Hendriksen 1959:46).
C. S. Lewis wrote: “The earliest Christian documents give ascent to the belief that the supernatural or invisible part of man survives the death of the body” (1966:29).
Since the Bible teaches progressive revelation from the Old Testament (OT) to the New Testament (NT), we do not see a full expression of the immortality of the soul in the OT (from my article, Immortality of the Soul).
Oz
Works consulted
Norman L. Geisler 1999, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, Michigan.
William Hendriksen 1959, The Bible on the Life Hereafter, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Michigan.
C. S. Lewis 1966, Miracles, Macmillan Co., New York.