Like this post if you believe in pre-trib rapture of the church!

[Truthfrees]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

We have had many discussions on end times. It is my belief that in Thessalonians is not descriptive of Christ's return to the earth. As we see in Thessalonians it is stated " in the clouds" , not a physical return to the earth at this time, but we do find in the old testament prophecy about his return to the earth physically and the mount splits when his(Christ) feet touch the earth there.

thanks, dirtfarmer

yes - we are caught up to be with Him - good point - and then when Jesus comes to earth later to rule for 1000 years that is His actually 2nd coming

also Jesus was probably here several times - like the brief visitation/appearance with shadrach mishach and abednigo in the fiery furnace - and the brief appearance/visitation with abraham before the destruction of sodom and gomorrah - unlike His 1st coming for 33.5 years - and His 2nd coming for 1000 year reign

 

[jasonc]

yes - we are caught up to be with Him - good point - and then when Jesus comes to earth later to rule for 1000 years that is His actually 2nd coming

also Jesus was probably here several times - like the brief visitation/appearance with shadrach mishach and abednigo in the fiery furnace - and the brief appearance/visitation with abraham before the destruction of sodom and gomorrah - unlike His 1st coming for 33.5 years - and His 2nd coming for 1000 year reign

you forget the king of salem. and also the Angel unto the Lord who received worship from Joshua. Malak YHWH. theres also the passing through the mountains in Sanai after Moses wanted to see His Glory. that wasn't the Father but the SON.

 

[jasonc]

its going to get more complex, since the the 3rd temple will come it. I will await for a response and go into the often used verses in Ezekiel on that, and show the problems with that, death penalty and stipulations and also the prince offering a sin offering before God and no women and only circumcised males allowed into the Holy Of Holies .

 

[Truthfrees]

you forget the king of salem. and also the Angel unto the Lord who received worship from Joshua. Malak YHWH. theres also the passing through the mountains in Sanai after Moses wanted to see His Glory. that wasn't the Father but the SON.

amen - yes - thanks for the reminder - and there are probably more visitations -

why did you say MALAK YHVH? - is that what it says in Joshua? - and the translators said Angel of the Lord rather than King YHVH

 

[Truthfrees]

its going to get more complex, since the the 3rd temple will come it. I will await for a response and go into the often used verses in Ezekiel on that, and show the problems with that, death penalty and stipulations and also the prince offering a sin offering before God and no women and only circumcised males allowed into the Holy Of Holies .

where did you learn this? - good stuff

 

[jasonc]

amen - yes - thanks for the reminder - and there are probably more visitations -

why did you say MALAK YHVH - is that what it says in Joshua? - and the translators said Angel of the Lord rather than King YHVH

Hebrew, Malak is the word for Angel and God said I will put my Name into my messenger. I cant remember where I read that. the Hebrews call this angle also the Metatron. a midrash term, that points to the messiah and also say He was likely God himself or an moshiac who was to got to war for Isreal.

 

[dirtfarmer]

amen - i agree with all this

as far as satan has as much power as God allows - yes - God made the rules - HE gave dominion of the earth to adam - adam gave that dominion to satan and God allowed adam to give it to satan - Jesus got it back for us and now we are learning how to walk as Jesus walked and use that authority/dominion He says he gives to us

i liked the part where you said our warfare is in spiritual realms too - good point - our weapons are not carnal earthly weapons - they are powerful IN the Holy Spirit to the pulling down of strongholds - great point - thanks

hello Truthfrees, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that as we live today, the earth is still the domain of Satan.
Maybe this will explain why and how I believe. Salvation has 3 parts or phases
1. we are saved from the penalty of sin, now
2. we are saved from the power of sin to reign in our lives, now
3, we will be saved from the presence of sin when we are raptured, future.

While I agree that we are learning to walk as Jesus did, it is so that we will be like Him as he is. Scripture tells us the god of this world is Satan, the devil. That is why we are called to separate from the world yet still living among it. It is the Spirit that witnesses to our spirit that we are children of God. We , still in this life, are overtaken with faults. This is why we must allow the Spirit to control our lives every day.

 

[jasonc]

where did you learn this? - good stuff

read it for what it says. Ezekiel 40 to 48 . it says it clearly what was to be.

 

[jasonc]

prior to the cross.

the earth and the fullness there in are mine, all souls are mine, heaven is my throne the earth is my footstool

I don't recall God ever loosing the control of nations. I can add more versus where He raises nations up and puts them away. God allows Satan to do limited things. we assume that He doesn't reign now. He does and will in His time remove all that wrong. God allows sin and while we may not like this, God is rulling over sinful men and upon their deaths he judged them accordingly.

if you doubt then why pray?

jesus said Behold all power has been given to me, not behold all power will be given to me when I return.

 

[ezra]

hello Truthfrees, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that as we live today, the earth is still the domain of Satan.
Maybe this will explain why and how I believe. Salvation has 3 parts or phases
1. we are saved from the penalty of sin, now
2. we are saved from the power of sin to reign in our lives, now
3, we will be saved from the presence of sin when we are raptured, future.

While I agree that we are learning to walk as Jesus did, it is so that we will be like Him as he is. Scripture tells us the god of this world is Satan, the devil. That is why we are called to separate from the world yet still living among it. It is the Spirit that witnesses to our spirit that we are children of God. We , still in this life, are overtaken with faults. This is why we must allow the Spirit to control our lives every day.

very scriptural

 

[dirtfarmer]

prior to the cross.



I don't recall God ever loosing the control of nations. I can add more versus where He raises nations up and puts them away. God allows Satan to do limited things. we assume that He doesn't reign now. He does and will in His time remove all that wrong. God allows sin and while we may not like this, God is rulling over sinful men and upon their deaths he judged them accordingly.

if you doubt then why pray?

jesus said Behold all power has been given to me, not behold all power will be given to me when I return.

hello jasonc, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that all mankind has been judged and found in need of a savior. It is the "unbelief" in Jesus Christ's sacrifice that will consign a person to the lake of fire. In the old testament they looked forward to the cross, today we look back to the cross.

 

[Jim Parker]

We will be caught in the air to meet Jesus when he returns.
He's only coming one more time.
He is NOT coming another time, secretly, to snatch His church out before the "great tribulation."
When He comes, He will be seen by everyone. (as lightning on a dark night is seen by everyone)
Mat 24:21-22 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The days of the great tribulation will be shortened because the elect (that's the Church) will be in it.

 

[dirtfarmer]

We will be caught in the air to meet Jesus when he returns.
He's only coming one more time.
He is NOT coming another time, secretly, to snatch His church out before the "great tribulation."
When He comes, He will be seen by everyone. (as lightning on a dark night is seen by everyone)
Mat 24:21-22 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The days of the great tribulation will be shortened because the elect (that's the Church) will be in it.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Would it be possible for you to quote scripture that shows that the Church is the elect?

 

[Jim Parker]

Would it be possible for you to quote scripture that shows that the Church is the elect?

sigh

 

[dirtfarmer]

sigh

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Why the sigh?

 

[Jim Parker]

Would it be possible for you to quote scripture that shows that the Church is the elect?

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

Col 1:1-2a Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse:
Col 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

I used "Blue Letter Bible" (it's on line and it's free) to look these two up. It took maybe 5 minutes.

 

[Jim Parker]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Why the sigh?

Because you could have easily looked up the answer to your question but didn't.

 

[Randy]

i haven't studied the scriptures for quite a while so going from memory -
1. because noah was saved in the ark - and
2. because we are not appointed to suffer wrath - and
3. because the antichrist can only be revealed when HE Who holds him back is taken out of the earth -
4. and Jesus said the Holy Spirit will never leave us -

i don't see how we can still be here when the antichrist shows up - if the Holy Spirit leaves that must mean we do too

but none the less there are all kinds of pre-trib tribulations that we need God's help to get through - any kind of serious trouble is a type of tribulation - and only God can help us through the many troubles that come our way in this life

There are Christians noted to the end. They would have the Spirit of Christ in them.
Rev 13:7 - The beast
It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
Rev 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

At the very end. Jesus come to pronounce judgment in favor of the saints, usher in everlasting righteousness; and to deal with the enemies of God that is those who cause and do evil.(pull up the weeds) For He must remain at the right hand of the Father until God makes His enemies His footstool. Psalm 110:1

The last day. The great battle of God almighty
Rev 16:15-16
(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”) 16And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

 

[jasonc]

There are Christians noted to the end. They would have the Spirit of Christ in them.
Rev 13:7 - The beast
It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
Rev 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

At the very end. Jesus come to pronounce judgment in favor of the saints, usher in everlasting righteousness; and to deal with the enemies of God that is those who cause and do evil.(pull up the weeds) For He must remain at the right hand of the Father until God makes His enemies His footstool. Psalm 110:1

The last day. The great battle of God almighty
Rev 16:15-16
(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”) 16And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

Tel meggiddo.the location is in isreal very tiny hill over a stragetic pass.old name was har megiddo.

Victory there implies control or loss of control of isreal.

In ww1 there was a battle there.it's a small pass.

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

We have had many discussions on end times. It is my belief that in Thessalonians is not descriptive of Christ's return to the earth. As we see in Thessalonians it is stated " in the clouds" , not a physical return to the earth at this time, but we do find in the old testament prophecy about his return to the earth physically and the mount splits when his(Christ) feet touch the earth there.

thanks, dirtfarmer

We find the coming of the Lord is associated with the resurrection and rapture of the Church.

We find the coming of the Lord also means the destruction of the antichrist and the wicked rulers and people of this world.


We find this in the letter to the Thessalonians where the rapture doctrine is derived from.

It’s not hard to see that the resurrection which comes before the rapture occurs on the last Day, but that is in another place in the Bible.

I wanted to prove from the very scriptures that folks get their rapture doctrine from that the resurrection and rapture as well as the destruction of the wicked all come from Thessalonians.

The reason Jesus destroys the antichrist and all the wicked is it’s the time to take His place as King over the whole Earth in Jerusalem.

Again once we establish a foundation of understanding from the book where the rapture comes from, then we can see from other books exactly what is being taught.

The resurrection and rapture are hard linked together and can not be seperated by 7 years or 7 months or 7 days or 7 minutes or 7 seconds even.

The resurrection and rapture are one event that occurs at His coming, whereby all His people are gathered together in the air with Him above the Earth safe from the destruction He will then pour out upon the earth, on the wicked.

This coming of the Lord to gather His people together and destroy the wicked is the Day of the Lord.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:4


So whenever we see the Day of the Lord, the coming of the Lord, we know the resurrection and rapture are what is taking place just before the destruction of the wicked takes place.

Jesus taught this exact same thing to His disciples on the mount of Olives, teaching them from the Prophet Zechariah.


For now we all need to be on the proverbial same page to come to a common understanding concerning the resurrection and rapture.

The three things that take place at His coming, on the Day of the Lord.


Resurrection
Rapture
Destruction of the wicked (antichrist)



JLB