JLB discusses speaking in tongues

[JLB]

The movement is Wesleyan-Armenian in theology, and is defined by its emphasis on John Wesley's doctrine of a second work of grace leading to Christian perfection.

I really don’t know about Wesleyan-Armenian theology.


I don’t find where the scriptures refer to a second work of grace.


I just know what I have experienced in my life, and what the scriptures say.


To be biblically “perfect” means complete, as in full stature sonship.


This is the work of transformation, being conformed to the image of God’s Son.


This to me is not possible without the Holy Spirit; The Spirit of Grace.


But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ. Ephesians 4:7-15


Key Phrase:

• till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

God wants us to be transformed by the renewing of our mind.


We are all called to be transformed into the image of His Son.




JLB

 

[ezra]

John Wesley's doctrine of a second work of grace can be nothing more than sanctification which has 3 steps we are in the 2nd step wip to be sanctified is being made Holy ..which is a on going process still we hit step 3 ..we made it to heaven. might i add like the rest of us the Wesley movement had some different ways.. none of us believe exactly the same.. john Wesley had a good teaching..problem is through the years the church has moved away from the original teachings the UMC which is set up by a conference board .needs get back to the Bible and squash this stupid carnal devilish lgbt movement with in the church thus saith the word of God==abomination. lgbt is welcome to attend church services .but there ways are not welcome in the church as a function .it is spreading all through out all major denoms

 

[Randy]

I really don’t know about Wesleyan-Armenian theology.


I don’t find where the scriptures refer to a second work of grace.


I just know what I have experienced in my life, and what the scriptures say.


To be biblically “perfect” means complete, as in full stature sonship.


This is the work of transformation, being conformed to the image of God’s Son.


This to me is not possible without the Holy Spirit; The Spirit of Grace.


But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ. Ephesians 4:7-15


Key Phrase:

• till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

God wants us to be transformed by the renewing of our mind.


We are all called to be transformed into the image of His Son.




JLB

Well if one has the Spirit of Christ in them then they have everything they need for a Godly life. We just need to put it into practice.

 

[JLB]

Well if one has the Spirit of Christ in them then they have everything they need for a Godly life. We just need to put it into practice.

We need the power of the Holy Spirit to do this.


Otherwise Jesus wouldn’t have said this -


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5





The baptism with the Holy Spirit, like baptism in water comes after a person believes, or receives the Gospel message and is saved; born again, regenerated.


And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. Acts 8:11-13


At this point the region of Samaria believed the Gospel message and was baptized by Phillip with water baptism.


They had not yet received the Holy Spirit.

• they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
• For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.
• They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
• Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19




JLB

 

[ezra]

We need the power of the Holy Spirit to do this.

we have this power we are connected to the true vine where the power source comes from
John 1:12

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

i received HIM and i have the power in Jesus name

 

[Randy]

We need the power of the Holy Spirit to do this.


Otherwise Jesus wouldn’t have said this -


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5





The baptism with the Holy Spirit, like baptism in water comes after a person believes, or receives the Gospel message and is saved; born again, regenerated.


And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. Acts 8:11-13


At this point the region of Samaria believed the Gospel message and was baptized by Phillip with water baptism.


They had not yet received the Holy Spirit.

• they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
• For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.
• They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
• Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19




JLB

If one has the Spirit of Christ in them then they have received the Holy Spirit and they are one with Jesus. A new creation.

I have been freed from the power of sin and in Christ is no sin.
I am not aware of any powers gained. Unless waking on water counts? Kidding!

 

[JLB]

If one has the Spirit of Christ in them then they have received the Holy Spirit and they are one with Jesus. A new creation.

Ok.

So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. John 20:21-22


So now they have the Spirit of Christ, The Holy Spirit, by which they are one with Christ.


However, Jesus went on to say this -


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5


you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.



Do you see this baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after they are regenerated and are one with Christ, as the example I gave from Acts 8:14-17 shows?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Lol, That's funny. It's rare that I find people who hold this position. I've spent about 10 years or so studying the Scriptures from a contextual, historical, and grammatical perspective. It's really given me insight into a lot of what the Scriptures actually teach.

I tend to believe that baptism is the entrance into the New Covenant.

Ok. I understand that....there's a divide on this and I hesitate to take a stand,,,,I have no PhD after my name.

Did you ever think of this?

Baptism always existed....
The Eucharist is brand new, as is the N.C.
Jesus instituted this at the Last Supper...

But I take no stand on either one.

 

[ezra]

the Holy Spirit is given to us the moment of the new birth ..i dont have to do back flips or any other ritual ..i have the power in me

 

[ezra]

We need the power of the Holy Spirit to do this.

we have this power if we are saved

 

[JLB]

we have this power if we are saved

Here is what Jesus said.


But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. Acts 1:8




JLB

 

[Butch5]

Which baptism are you referring to?

Water

 

[Butch5]

Interesting info on your website.



JLB

Thanks!

 

[Butch5]

Ok. I understand that....there's a divide on this and I hesitate to take a stand,,,,I have no PhD after my name.

Did you ever think of this?

Baptism always existed....
The Eucharist is brand new, as is the N.C.
Jesus instituted this at the Last Supper...

But I take no stand on either one.

My thought would be to see how the first Christians understood it. My thinking is that the whole purpose of circumcision was a visible sign that one was in the Old Covenant. It was done once and that was it. I see the same thing in baptism. It's a visible sign that is done once. The Eucharist is an ongoing thing. It's done over and over. It could be a sign, but I think baptism aligns better with circumcision which we know for sure was a sign of the convenant

 

[JohnDB]

we have this power we are connected to the true vine where the power source comes from
John 1:12

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

i received HIM and i have the power in Jesus name

Just to poke at you for a bit...
This verse is all past tense in English...not present or future.
Why do you believe that it still holds true today since it is all past tense...as if it was no longer true when John wrote it.

 

[ezra]

Just to poke at you for a bit...
This verse is all past tense in English...not present or future.
Why do you believe that it still holds true today since it is all past tense...as if it was no longer true when John wrote it.

the Bible tells me so.. why would you not believe i believe in all the gifts of the spirit.. including tongues .. how ever it should be done decent and i order. i also do not think everyone has this gift..you can poke fun all you want

 

[JohnDB]

the Bible tells me so.. why would you not believe i believe in all the gifts of the spirit.. including tongues .. how ever it should be done decent and i order. i also do not think everyone has this gift..you can poke fun all you want

I'm just wondering why you won't believe what the Bible says in one place but become a super strict adherint in another.

That's the Crux of what I'm asking...it's only 2 chapters later in the same book by the same author.

 

[ezra]

I'm just wondering why you won't believe what the Bible says in one place but become a super strict adherint in another.

That's the Crux of what I'm asking...it's only 2 chapters later in the same book by the same author.

what is the part you seem to think i am dismissing dont beat around the bush with me .. just post it because at this point time i have no idea what your talking about

 

[JohnDB]

what is the part you seem to think i am dismissing dont beat around the bush with me .. just post it because at this point time i have no idea what your talking about

John 1:12 is written in the past tense...as if it's over when John wrote his Gospel and John 3:5 has a footnote explaining a second translation which I explain is actually superior to the norm.

John 1:12 you dismiss the past tense and believe it's applicible for today. (No footnote even)
But when I explain how Born From Above (another Son of God reference and a footnote) is the preferred reading and you dismiss it out of hand.

I'm just trying to understand your method of hermeneutics. How you come to the conclusions you do.

 

[JLB]

the Holy Spirit is given to us the moment of the new birth ..i dont have to do back flips or any other ritual ..i have the power in me

Asking and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, is not doing backflips.


You don’t seem to be interested in discussing the scriptures I gave about how the early Church received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Why don’t you share the scriptures that tell us the Holy Spirit is given to us at the moment of the new birth.




JLB