JLB discusses speaking in tongues

[JLB]

and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.

And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:3-5

• When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Right here is when they were baptized into Christ by the Spirit, when they heard and believed.




JLB

 

[Randy]

And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:3-5

• When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Right here is when they were baptized into Christ by the Spirit, when they heard and believed.




JLB

I didn't read they didn't believe before. I read they didn't have the knowledge of the gift of the Spirit let alone the Spirit. They were called disciples. Its very reasonable that they heard and believed Jesus was the Christ. My point being the baptism was the baptism not a 2nd work of grace performed by God.

Do you equate Born again with Christ in us?

 

[JLB]

I didn't read they didn't believe before. I read they didn't have the knowledge of the gift of the Spirit let alone the Spirit. They were called disciples. Its very reasonable that they heard and believed Jesus was the Christ. My point being the baptism was the baptism not a 2nd work of grace performed by God.

Do you equate Born again with Christ in us?

I equate being born again with being baptized into Christ by the Spirit.

After this comes water baptism and or the baptism with the Holy Spirit.




JLB

 

[Randy]

I equate being born again with being baptized into Christ by the Spirit.

After this comes water baptism and or the baptism with the Holy Spirit.




JLB

To be clear. Does the person who is baptized into Christ by the Spirit have the Spirit of Christ in them?

 

[Randy]

It seems to me this is water baptism first with the promise being they will receive the Spirit.
Repent usually is done with prayer as well as pledging a good conscience towards God.

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It seems to me these people had no knowledge of the promise and did not yet receive the Spirit. And so they became born again as Paul placed His hands on they (prayer was involved)

Prayer was involved at Pentecost as well.

So its not the sequence or method the Spirit was given that 's consistent but prayer to God with a sincere faith in Jesus and in His name they received the promised gift of the Holy Spirit. Anything earned is not a gift. Anything earned is wages for work performed. What work has man done that God should repay them? What is it that God doesn't already own that man could give to God?

Romans 8 teaches us that those who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to Jesus. And those that have the Spirit are not controlled by the flesh. While one needs to be made free from the power of sin by Jesus nobody was taught they couldn't love without being born again. As in let your light shine and put into practice.

There are no distinct teaching in Christian living that separate one who has been baptized into Christ by the Spirit but not yet baptized with the Spirit. There is reference given about those who don't have the Spirit vs those who do have the Spirit as in born again. OR "Christ in us"

There is ONE inward work of grace Christ in us - the new creation. And that is the gift of God and anyone who has been born of God has been given the right to be called the children of God.

No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God.

Written on their hearts
"This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Randy

 

[JLB]

To be clear. Does the person who is baptized into Christ by the Spirit have the Spirit of Christ in them?

Not until they are baptized into Christ and made to drink of the Spirit.


This is when a person is born again.


After this comes baptism with water and baptism with the Spirit.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm afraid to post on here!
It seems like the bible makes everything simple but we make it difficult.

John the Baptist baptized for repentance...this includes forgiveness of sins.

The moment we regret our sins and repent...we are born again, in today's vernacular. If we died that moment, we'd be saved.
(saved is also a modern concept, the way it's understood).

For water baptism, it does get a little confusing because when we're baptized, all our previous sins are removed from our soul. This is agreed to by the ECFs, who were taught by at least one of the Apostles.

But, at this baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit,,,as in Acts 1, Jesus told the Apostles to wait in Jerusalem till they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit and were indwelt by Him for Power in Witnessing, teaching, preaching, etc.

Some churches believe that there is an additional baptism where we can be filled (I believe is the term) by the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

I've seen this too so it cannot be denied. My personal belief is that speaking in tongues is a gift and not proof of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Some churches, such as the Assembly of God, went so far as to say that if a person did not speak in tongues, they did not possess the Holy Spirit --- I believe they no longer state this since many never receive this gift.

So there is baptism by the Spirit when we first believe....
Water baptism for the forgiveness of sins and of power AFTER we believe...
And possibly the baptism of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or speaking in tongues....which, I do believe is a gift.

I really would like some comments since reading through this...I think I'd like to clear my mind....

 

[Nathan12]

I really would like some comments since reading through this...I think I'd like to clear my mind....

God wants Christians to have clarity. Paul spoke of "the doctrine of baptisms" (plural, and presented it as one of the elementary doctrines). So how many baptisms are mentioned in the Bible? (Baptism = immersion or submersion)

1. John's baptism for the repentance of Israel in preparation for the Messiah (historical).

2. Christ's baptism with the Holy Spirit -- the gift of the Holy Spirit given to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (ongoing)

3. The Holy Spirit's baptism of believers into the Body of Christ. (ongoing)

4. Water baptism of new converts as a commandment of Christ. (ongoing)

5. Baptism with fire, fire being intense suffering and martyrdom. Christ had His fiery baptism on the cross, all the apostles were martyred, and today there are thousands of Christians being martyred.

Only Pentecostals and Charismatics teach about a "baptism IN or OF the Holy Spirit" and its evidence as speaking in tongues. But not all Christians speak (or ever spoke) in tongues.

 

[Randy]

Not until they are baptized into Christ and made to drink of the Spirit.


This is when a person is born again.


After this comes baptism with water and baptism with the Spirit.




JLB

To be clear. Does the person who is baptized into Christ by the Spirit have the Spirit of Christ in them?
So I think your answer is yes and I think your theological beliefs is this baptism is by Jesus

So then what is this purpose to you? And I think your theological belief is this baptism is by the Spirit not Jesus?
After this comes baptism with water and baptism with the Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

God wants Christians to have clarity. Paul spoke of "the doctrine of baptisms" (plural, and presented it as one of the elementary doctrines). So how many baptisms are mentioned in the Bible? (Baptism = immersion or submersion)

1. John's baptism for the repentance of Israel in preparation for the Messiah (historical).

2. Christ's baptism with the Holy Spirit -- the gift of the Holy Spirit given to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (ongoing)

3. The Holy Spirit's baptism of believers into the Body of Christ. (ongoing)

4. Water baptism of new converts as a commandment of Christ. (ongoing)

5. Baptism with fire, fire being intense suffering and martyrdom. Christ had His fiery baptism on the cross, all the apostles were martyred, and today there are thousands of Christians being martyred.

Only Pentecostals and Charismatics teach about a "baptism IN or OF the Holy Spirit" and its evidence as speaking in tongues. But not all Christians speak (or ever spoke) in tongues.

I don't understand the difference between number 2 and number 3.

I believe that when we're water baptized, we become members of the community of baptized Christians.

As to number 5,,,,agreed.
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Nathan12 wrote:

1. John's baptism for the repentance of Israel in preparation for the Messiah (historical).

2. Christ's baptism with the Holy Spirit -- the gift of the Holy Spirit given to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (ongoing)

3. The Holy Spirit's baptism of believers into the Body of Christ. (ongoing)

4. Water baptism of new converts as a commandment of Christ. (ongoing)

5. Baptism with fire, fire being intense suffering and martyrdom. Christ had His fiery baptism on the cross, all the apostles were martyred, and today there are thousands of Christians being martyred.

 

[Randy]

I don't understand the difference between number 2 and number 3.

I believe that when we're water baptized, we become members of the community of baptized Christians.

As to number 5,,,,agreed.
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Nathan12 wrote:

1. John's baptism for the repentance of Israel in preparation for the Messiah (historical).

2. Christ's baptism with the Holy Spirit -- the gift of the Holy Spirit given to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (ongoing)

3. The Holy Spirit's baptism of believers into the Body of Christ. (ongoing)

4. Water baptism of new converts as a commandment of Christ. (ongoing)

5. Baptism with fire, fire being intense suffering and martyrdom. Christ had His fiery baptism on the cross, all the apostles were martyred, and today there are thousands of Christians being martyred.

Ref 3 How can one be one with Christ Ref 2 and not be in the body of Christ?
Ref 5 There are trials and tribulations in life to all. Its better to have the one in us that is greater then the one in this world during those trials. Paul sang Hymns while locked up in chains. I doubt the unrighteous who are locked up for wrong doing do the same.

 

[Nathan12]

I don't understand the difference between number 2 and number 3.

There is a very big difference between those two baptism. Therefore we need to look at the relevant Scriptures and understand what they mean.

CHRIST BAPTIZES WITH THE HOLY GHOST
I [John the Baptist] indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Mt 3:11)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour...(Tit 3:5,6)

No one can be born again (regenerated and renewed) without the gift of the Holy Spirit. Therefore Christ "pours out" ("sheds on us" or "baptizes with") the Holy Spirit on each one who repents and believes on Him. And the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer. But that is not the end of this work of God.

THE HOLY SPIRIT BAPTIZES INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. (1 Cor 12:12-14)

This passage tells us that Christ has an invisible Body of which He is the Head. And each one who receives the Holy Spirit is placed into (immersed or baptized into) this body supernaturally by the indwelling Holy Spirit, so that all Christians are united to Christ and to each other. Therefore we are commanded to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Externally Christians are fragmented into their various denominations and groups. But spiritually, all those who are children of God are united to Christ eternally.

 

[Randy]

A person must first believe and be born again, then they are baptized.


Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:35-38

• Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

Do you believe a person is saved, born again, regenerated when they believe?





JLB

I believe one who is born of God is a child of God and has the Spirit of Christ in them. They are the children of God. They are members of the body of Christ and one with Jesus.
I don't have a set formula for receiving the Spirit other then calling on the Lord with a sincere faith. Those that go to Jesus and believe in Him. Usually prayers are offered during baptism.
Knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of sins. The forgiveness of sins found in Jesus alone. Of course repentance is a good start when news of the gospel message convicts the sinners heart.

A 2nd baptism by God is not required to receive the same gift of the Spirit. Christ in us.

I encourage any who have no inward testimony of the Spirit of Christ in them to ask Jesus for the gift. For that Spirit testifies to our spirit that we belong to and are one with Jesus. Likewise those that have that testimony relax you are in the family of God and that is a sign to you of your salvation. Rejoice for you are the children of the living God by His hands.

 

[Walpole]

I believe one who is born of God is a child of God and has the Spirit of Christ in them. They are the children of God. They are members of the body of Christ and one with Jesus.
I don't have a set formula for receiving the Spirit other then calling on the Lord with a sincere faith. Those that go to Jesus and believe in Him. Usually prayers are offered during baptism.
Knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of sins. The forgiveness of sins found in Jesus alone. Of course repentance is a good start when news of the gospel message convicts the sinners heart.

A 2nd baptism by God is not required to receive the same gift of the Spirit. Christ in us.

I encourage any who have no inward testimony of the Spirit of Christ in them to ask Jesus for the gift. For that Spirit testifies to our spirit that we belong to and are one with Jesus. Likewise those that have that testimony relax you are in the family of God and that is a sign to you of your salvation. Rejoice for you are the children of the living God by His hands.

FYI, to be baptized = to be born again

"Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'" (John 3:5)

"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:4)

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself up for her; that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the Church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless.” (Eph 5:25-27)

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5)


It is completely novel to change the meaning of being born again from baptism to some road to Damascus-type event in one's life.

 

[Nathan12]

FYI, to be baptized = to be born again...It is completely novel to change the meaning of being born again from baptism to some road to Damascus-type event in one's life.

There are some churches which teach baptismal regeneration, but since you quoted Eph 5:25-27, you should also believe what it says. The "water" of John 3:5, is the Word of God (the Gospel) which becomes the seed of the New Birth. See 1 Peter 1:23-25.

The water of baptism has a different significance -- death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. See Romans 6. It does not regenerate anyone, since that is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).

 

[Randy]

FYI, to be baptized = to be born again

"Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'" (John 3:5)

"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:4)

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself up for her; that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the Church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless.” (Eph 5:25-27)

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5)


It is completely novel to change the meaning of being born again from baptism to some road to Damascus-type event in one's life.

Some, not I, perceive baptism and born again as 2 separate works of grace. Those born anew by the Spirit of God have the promised Spirit . Christ in us and are one with Jesus.
I only hold to one inward work of grace that changes my being, The new creation. Christ in us.