Did Moses really write the first five books of the Bible?

[stovebolts]

Many scholars are now trying to say Moses could not have written the foundation of the Bible.

My wife and I saw this well-done documentary this weekend and it was amazing! The end was a double whammy bonus that made the hair on my arms raise!

The last show is Mach 19 at select theatres so I hope you can see it!

Patterns of Evidence: The Moses Controversy.

 

[Edward]

He not only wrote them, but was dictated them by God by every dot and tittle. That is well established at this day and age.

 

[stovebolts]

He not only wrote them, but was dictated them by God by every dot and tittle. That is well established at this day and age.

Yes, but linguist scholars claim that the Hebrew alphabet is phonecian and wasn't around in Moses day. In other words, they claim Moses couldn't have written it because there wasn't an alphabet available for him to write it.

They claim it was passed orally until it could be written. They question the validity of the story and promote the story was embellished.

You have to go see this movie!

 

[JohnDB]

Okay...
So when Moses came down from the mountains with two stone tablets with the ten commandments on them...(which is before the Torah was written) I seriously doubt that they were voice recordings that replayed by the push of a button.

Written language during Moses's day was unique and novel. Only two or three written languages existed at that time. Most languages were strictly oral.
Hebrew language was one of them. It was the "nomadic's" private language so others wouldn't necessarily understand them.
it was (and still is to some degree) phonetic and metaphoric and pictographic at the same time. Which blows our minds.

the Aleph is the first letter which represents an altar of God's...it has no sound of it's own but it affects the meaning and pronunciation of a word.

beth (second letter) is a picture of a house(tent) and when included as a word it means house. Bethlehem is literally house of bread.

it goes on and on this way.

 

[stovebolts]

Okay...
So when Moses came down from the mountains with two stone tablets with the ten commandments on them...(which is before the Torah was written) I seriously doubt that they were voice recordings that replayed by the push of a button.

Written language during Moses's day was unique and novel. Only two or three written languages existed at that time. Most languages were strictly oral.
Hebrew language was one of them. It was the "nomadic's" private language so others wouldn't necessarily understand them.
it was (and still is to some degree) phonetic and metaphoric and pictographic at the same time. Which blows our minds.

the Aleph is the first letter which represents an altar of God's...it has no sound of it's own but it affects the meaning and pronunciation of a word.

beth (second letter) is a picture of a house(tent) and when included as a word it means house. Bethlehem is literally house of bread.

it goes on and on this way.

You should see the movie... They uncover some things that would cause you to seriously reconsider some of what you've just written.

There were three written languages.
1. Egyptian, which wasn't for the common folk. It would take a hundred pages in Egyptian nobody could read to copy the first page of Genesis.

2. Cuneiform which is not only complicated, but is nowhere to be found near Egypt.

3. I dont want to give it away, but scholars dont date this one during Moses time. It is related to Phonecian.

 

[Nathan12]

Many scholars are now trying to say Moses could not have written the foundation of the Bible.

This is not exactly new. The unbelieving Higher Critics were attacking the authorship of Moses in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. They did not believe that there was such a thing as "divine inspiration". Indeed they believed that the Bible was simply a collection of oral traditions, legends, fables, and myths (often inferior to pagan legends). Anything but sober, true, historical facts.

However the Lord Jesus Christ upheld the authorship of Moses, and that should be enough for Christians who believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

 

[JohnDB]

This is not exactly new. The unbelieving Higher Critics were attacking the authorship of Moses in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. They did not believe that there was such a thing as "divine inspiration". Indeed they believed that the Bible was simply a collection of oral traditions, legends, fables, and myths (often inferior to pagan legends). Anything but sober, true, historical facts.

However the Lord Jesus Christ upheld the authorship of Moses, and that should be enough for Christians who believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

We aren't doubting that the Bible is the inspired word of God....not hardly. Every single jot and tittle is important and precious.

 

[stovebolts]

This is not exactly new. The unbelieving Higher Critics were attacking the authorship of Moses in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. They did not believe that there was such a thing as "divine inspiration". Indeed they believed that the Bible was simply a collection of oral traditions, legends, fables, and myths (often inferior to pagan legends). Anything but sober, true, historical facts.

However the Lord Jesus Christ upheld the authorship of Moses, and that should be enough for Christians who believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

Yes,
But the sad fact is this. We live in a culture that is losing its ability to discern and deductive reasoning coupled with polar separation is taking its place.

If a professor can prove through evidence that the foundation of Gods word is founded on myth and fairytale because how could Moses record Gods word when there wasn't an alphabet? And the alphabet Hebrew is founded on didn't exist till centuries later?

For a thinking man, he will teach his students that Moses could not have written Torah, and since Torah says Moses did, it is an unreliable source.

Jesus says Moses wrote of him. It even causes one to doubt Jesus.

 

[JohnDB]

Yes,
But the sad fact is this. We live in a culture that is losing its ability to discern and deductive reasoning coupled with polar separation is taking its place.

If a professor can prove through evidence that the foundation of Gods word is founded on myth and fairytale because how could Moses record Gods word when there wasn't an alphabet? And the alphabet Hebrew is founded on didn't exist till centuries later?

For a thinking man, he will teach his students that Moses could not have written Torah, and since Torah says Moses did, it is an unreliable source.

Jesus says Moses wrote of him. It even causes one to doubt Jesus.

Hebrew is/was a living language...much like English characters have changed over the centuries so did Hebrew. To say that Hebrew didn't exist centuries ago is stretching the truth. Much like saying that English didn't exist in the third century...it did but it sounded and was written in a very different manner then.

 

[stovebolts]

Hebrew is/was a living language...much like English characters have changed over the centuries so did Hebrew. To say that Hebrew didn't exist centuries ago is stretching the truth. Much like saying that English didn't exist in the third century...it did but it sounded and was written in a very different manner then.

We're not talking about the spoken language, we are talking about the written language.

I'll play devil's advocate just to prove a point.

It is agreed that the Hebrew alphabet is Semitic. Nobody denies this nor should they.

What does our educational system teach us about the Semitic alphabet in regards to origin?

In other words, what is the origin of the Hebrew alphabet?

 

[Redwords lou]

Okay...
So when Moses came down from the mountains with two stone tablets with the ten commandments on them...(which is before the Torah was written) I seriously doubt that they were voice recordings that replayed by the push of a button.

Written language during Moses's day was unique and novel. Only two or three written languages existed at that time. Most languages were strictly oral.
Hebrew language was one of them. It was the "nomadic's" private language so others wouldn't necessarily understand them.
it was (and still is to some degree) phonetic and metaphoric and pictographic at the same time. Which blows our minds.

the Aleph is the first letter which represents an altar of God's...it has no sound of it's own but it affects the meaning and pronunciation of a word.

beth (second letter) is a picture of a house(tent) and when included as a word it means house. Bethlehem is literally house of bread.

it goes on and on this way.

A recording, oh man I busted a gut!!

 

[Corn Pop]

If it talks about Moses dying at the end, then either someone else wrote it, or Moses and someone else finished it. How does someone write 5 books completely if in it they are not alive?

And it says things like " Then Moses went up....". If Moses wrote it would he not say " Then I went up?"

Also, how can Moses write this?

So Moses, the Eternal’s servant, died there in the land of Moab, just as the Eternal had said. He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab

 

[WIP]

If it talks about Moses dying at the end, then either someone else wrote it, or Moses and someone else finished it. How does someone write 5 books completely if in it they are not alive?

And it says things like " Then Moses went up....". If Moses wrote it would he not say " Then I went up?"

Also, how can Moses write this?

So Moses, the Eternal’s servant, died there in the land of Moab, just as the Eternal had said. He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab

In many cases throughout Scripture there is an underlying indication of someone putting to pen (so to speak) what another is dictating. Many of the books are written in the third person and in some of Paul's NT writings he specifically indicates that some or all of the letter was written in his own handwriting, which suggests this was not always the case.

 

[JohnDB]

In many cases throughout Scripture there is an underlying indication of someone putting to pen (so to speak) what another is dictating. Many of the books are written in the third person and in some of Paul's NT writings he specifically indicates that some or all of the letter was written in his own handwriting, which suggests this was not always the case.

Moses was at least 80 when the Torah was written...meaning myopathy had likely started.
(Arms were too short and reading glasses weren't invented yet)

 

[WIP]

Moses was at least 80 when the Torah was written...meaning myopathy had likely started.
(Arms were too short and reading glasses weren't invented yet)

Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished. Deuteronomy 34:7 NKJV

 

[stovebolts]

Moses was at least 80 when the Torah was written...meaning myopathy had likely started.
(Arms were too short and reading glasses weren't invented yet)

Yes, but....
What alphabet did Moses write it in? That's really the controversy.

At it's root, what is the accepted norm for the the origin of the Hebrew language.

You can Google proto Semitic language timeline and click on images for a graph.

 

[Nathan12]

If a professor can prove through evidence that the foundation of Gods word is founded on myth and fairytale because how could Moses record Gods word when there wasn't an alphabet? And the alphabet Hebrew is founded on didn't exist till centuries later?

There's no question that the dumbing down of Western students has been going on for a long time. But since there were alphabets in existence long before Moses wrote the Torah (c. 1500 BC) the professor would be lying through his teeth.

"The early Hebrew (Semitic) alphabet was used by many Semitic peoples of the ancient Near East, including the Canaanites, Moabites, Arameans, Phoenicians, Amonites and the Hebrews. This alphabet existed between the 20th and 12th centuries B.C. However, note that the 20th century date is based on the oldest inscriptions found thus far and it is possible that future discoveries may push the date of the Semitic alphabet back even farther into history. To date, the Wadi El-Hhol inscriptions found in southern Egypt are the oldest Semitic inscriptions found and date to between the 19th and 20th centuries B.C. The Sinaitic inscriptions from the Sinai Peninsula date to about the 15th century B.C. ..."

History of the Hebrew Alphabet

The Hebrew alphabet has gone through an evolution over the past 4,000 years, from it's original pictographic script, similar to Egyptian heiroglyphics, to the modern alphabet in use today.

www.ancient-hebrew.org

 

[Nathan12]

We aren't doubting that the Bible is the inspired word of God....not hardly. Every single jot and tittle is important and precious.

True. But the Higher Critics rejected divine inspiration, hence the attacks on the authorship of the Torah.

"Higher criticism treats the Bible as a text created by human beings at a particular historical time and for various human motives, in contrast with the treatment of the Bible as the inerrant word of God."

Higher criticism - New World Encyclopedia

www.newworldencyclopedia.org

 

[JohnDB]

Yes, but....
What alphabet did Moses write it in? That's really the controversy.

At it's root, what is the accepted norm for the the origin of the Hebrew language.

You can Google proto Semitic language timeline and click on images for a graph.

The problem with all of this is dating the different languages and their progressions.

Gotta remember that all this was a very long time ago. Not necessarily did things progress the way they claim. The "Promised Land" /Canaan had several periods of urbanization and deurbanization. Whole cultures simply vanished without a trace. Sodom was one but there were others as well.
Philistines might well be (as suggested) people from Greece that settled in the area.

It's really difficult archeology. And nothing that was literally carved in stone survived that well to today.

On top of all this...the "Hebrew-isms"...idioms of speech and poetic license used in their writings makes precise dating almost impossible. Nevermind the actual happenstances around the plagues.
We still are having trouble pinpointing which Pharoah is the one that Moses called "Step-father" . Thutmose I or II or another.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hebrew belongs to the Canaanite group of languages being a branch of the Northwest Semitic family of languages. According to Avraham Ben-Yosef, Hebrew flourished as a spoken language in the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah during about 1200 to 586BCE.

Moses would have learnt the Egyptian language and being a member of the Egyptian court he would have also learnt the Akkadian language. Anything Moses would have written would be from these two languages. Moses would have used the Aramaic alphabet which is ancestral to the Hebrew alphabet.

What Moses wrote, or that which may have been oral could have possibly been transcribed by someone else into the Hebrew language of the Torah.

Moses was born in Goshen, Lower Egypt, New Kingdom of Egypt and raised by the Egyptians. Even though he was and Israelite by birth he never entered the promise land of Israel. He died in 1407BC in Mount Nebo, Jordan.