causing a little one to stumble Matthew 18:6-9

[Jethro Bodine]

I was originally answering the OP's question of "Who is verse 8 referring to?"
Verse 8 of Matt 18.
I think we have crossed "points" here.
I'm going to just step back a second or two.
Peace.

I was just responding to the flow of the discussion as more points get brought up and more questions get asked.
Most threads go like this...

OP:
"Why was it okay for Jesus to flip the tables of the money changers?"

Last post of thread:
"Tweek the carburetor using a vacuum gauge and you should be good to go."

 

[Hopeful]

I was just responding to the flow of the discussion as more points get brought up and more questions get asked.
Most threads go like this...

OP:
"Why was it okay for Jesus to flip the tables of the money changers?"

Last post of thread:
"Tweek the carburetor using a vacuum gauge and you should be good to go."

Yeah, it kinda got away from me.
Carburetor?
You must be as old as I am.
I had a 715 cfm dual feed carb. on my '67, 289 hi-po Mustang, in 1971.
Very fast!!!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yeah, it kinda got away from me.
Carburetor?
You must be as old as I am.
I had a 715 cfm dual feed carb. on my '67, 289 hi-po Mustang, in 1971.
Very fast!!!

Very cool!

I'm almost as old as you.
I had an SS Nova.
Never built an engine, but swapped a 1970 Impala motor into my Nova and ditched the original smog motor.

 

[for_his_glory]

Stumbling blocks that others place before us can be a test of our faith that we not waver as God will always strengthen our faith in times of trials and tribulations. A child basically has not come into the knowledge of faith yet and by others influences can keep them away from Jesus. This is why it is so important to train up a child in the ways of the Lord that they can build upon their faith when they come into the knowledge of what faith in Christ is all about.

It's the same with adult Christians as we will always be faced with stumbling blocks placed before us and let's take a look at how we need to handle them.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

What many are missing is the word "shall" in Matthew 24:13 as it's expressed as a future tense that indicates a promise.

For by grace, as it's only Gods favor extended to all who will receive it by faith, is a free gift as we become His workmanship created in Christ unto good works that God ordained that we should continue walking in the good works of Christ, Ephesians 2:8; Matthew 25:31-40. We can not earn our salvation by our own works nor do we even deserve Gods grace, Genesis 6:6-8. Only by a mustard seed of faith do we come to Christ and repent of our sins are we then only washed clean by the blood of Christ and become Spiritually reborn again (not saved) through the Spiritual rebirth of John 3:3-6 by that of Romans 10:9,10.

Matthew 24:13 says that those who endure until the end shall be saved. This means enduring all the trials and tribulations that this world will bring against us for the sake of our witness and testimony of Christ, Acts 14:22, Rev 2:10. The end means the end of our days here on this present earth when those in the grave and we who are still alive at His coming will then be caught up to Christ and are saved at that time as we have endured all things and never gave up our faith in Christ.

God's word never said we would not go through trials or tribulations, but through many trials and tribulations if we endure until the end then we will see the Kingdom of God, Acts 14:22, as we are all called into discipleship as we share our witness and testimony with those who have not yet repented and turned back to God. Below are twenty reasons why God allows us to go through trials and tribulations so that we will always remain in His will.


Why God allows us to go through trials and tribulations:
1. Training as God prepares us for the future
2. Patience as we rely and trust in God's timing
3. Perseverance through trials that we remain in Gods will
4. Trust as God's ways are not our ways and He has a better plan for us
5. To learn from our mistakes
6. To humble ourselves before Him
7. To discipline us
8. Teach us to be dependent on Him alone
9. To spend quiet time with God so He can speak to us
10. To teach us of His protection
11. That we also share in the sufferings of Christ that we be not ashamed
12. Strengthen us to become more like Christ
13. To develop character
14. Build up our faith in the Lord
15. For a testimony and witness to help others
16. To show us sin in our lives that we need to own up to having
17. To remind us that God is in control
18. Helps us gain knowledge and understanding God's word
19. Teaches us to be thankful
20. To take our mind off the things of the world and and put them back on God

 

[JLB]

OK, thanks.
The Christian "church" didn't start till Jesus was raised from the dead.
There were no Christians yet.
Nobody could be baptized into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection yet.

Please share the scripture you have for this.

 

[JLB]

Firstly, they weren't even called Christians till Acts 11.
Secondly, it was the Jewish "church" before Jesus was resurrected, so technically wasn't the "church" I belong to.
Thirdly, until Jesus was killed, we could not be baptized into Him. (Rom 6:3-7)

Thanks for your answer, but the “Church” is not based on people referring to its members as Christians.

Secondly, there is no such thing as the “Jewish Church”.

Thirdly, the Spirit baptizes us into Christ.

The Apostles of Jesus Christ baptized people in water, while He was living.



And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:17


It would be sad indeed to think that no one was saved through the ministry of Christ preaching the Gospel.


The important thing is that you are part of the Church now, by believing and obeying the Lord Jesus Christ.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Matthew 16:14-18 This is when the true church began starting with one of belief and faith in Christ as the Father reveals this to all of us like He did Peter.

Acts 2:14-47 This is when the church was added to by the Lord beginning with 3000 that day as the Lord added to His church being the body of Christ who were baptized into Christ that day filled with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 11: The church being the body of Christ with He being the head of the body were first called Christians that day in Antioch. These were Christian Jews as Christ sent His disciples to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:5-7.

Romans 11:13 -22; Galatians 1:15, 16; 2:78 Here we have both Jew and Gentile becoming one in Christ as the Gentiles are grafted into the branch of Israel.

 

[Hopeful]

Thanks for your answer, but the “Church” is not based on people referring to its members as Christians.

What is your assessment of the beginning of the "church"...if that isn't too much of a derail?

Secondly, there is no such thing as the “Jewish Church”.

In a sense, I agree...though those who are Jewish, nationally, could be referred to as a Jewish church. Though now I think of the church as those "in Christ" without regard to nationality.

Thirdly, the Spirit baptizes us into Christ.

I guess you are referring to 1 Cor 12:13..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
But that verse needs to be liked with 1 Cor 6:11..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
There is a "wash" involved with the "and the Spirit of God".
The baptism is in water and the gift of the Holy Ghost, also called the baptism of the Spirit, comes later. Just as Peter laid it out in Acts 2:38.

The Apostles of Jesus Christ baptized people in water, while He was living.

And continued to do so after His death and resurrection, as Jesus did command it in Matt 28:19.

And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:17

Good use of the term "church".
I'm surprised Jesus didn't say "synagogue".
Perhaps prophetically looking ahead?
As Jesus' disciples weren't meeting in their own building as a congregation, the term "church" just implies adherents to a certain set of doctrines when used from Jesus' times.
Now we say "Christian church" to differentiate it from other doctrines.
But in Jesus' times there was no other doctrines besides Judaism for the children of God.

It would be sad indeed to think that no one was saved through the ministry of Christ preaching the Gospel.

Indeed, it would be sad.
But the Israelites had the Law of Moses for their salvation in the times before Christ's resurrection.
As they were still walking in the flesh instead of the Spirit, until they could kill and bury their old selves at their water baptism into Christ and into His death and resurrection, it wouldn't be till after Jesus was killed, buried, and resurrected that they, we, could walk in the Spirit...and be a "church" of our own.

The important thing is that you are part of the Church now, by believing and obeying the Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen to that, to the glory of God and to the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

What is your assessment of the beginning of the "church"...if that isn't too much of a derail?

The Abrahamic Covenant.


The New Covenant is the “Renewed” Abrahamic Covenant.

That’s why we are called children of Abraham and we have access to the blessing of Abraham, who walked in Covenant relationship with the same Lord we do today.

We are grafted into the natural olive tree, whose root supports us.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Though now I think of the church as those "in Christ" without regard to nationality.

Amen

 

[JLB]

Now we say "Christian church" to differentiate it from other doctrines.

No, we don’t.

Just Church.

 

[JLB]

But the Israelites had the Law of Moses for their salvation in the times before Christ's resurrection.

No, actually that is the narrative that some may teach.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8


JLB

 

[JLB]

As they were still walking in the flesh instead of the Spirit, until they could kill and bury their old selves at their water baptism into Christ and into His death and resurrection, it wouldn't be till after Jesus was killed, buried, and resurrected that they, we, could walk in the Spirit...and be a "church" of our own.

“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16



JLB

 

[JLB]

As they were still walking in the flesh instead of the Spirit,

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

• Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

A person would need to have the Spirit of Christ in them before they are Christ’s.



JLB

 

[JLB]

But that verse needs to be liked with 1 Cor 6:11..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

We are washed and sanctified by the Lord, through believing the Gospel.


Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, Ephesians 5:25

• gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

This is the work of Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

What is your assessment of the beginning of the "church"...if that isn't too much of a derail?


In a sense, I agree...though those who are Jewish, nationally, could be referred to as a Jewish church. Though now I think of the church as those "in Christ" without regard to nationality.


I guess you are referring to 1 Cor 12:13..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
But that verse needs to be liked with 1 Cor 6:11..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
There is a "wash" involved with the "and the Spirit of God".
The baptism is in water and the gift of the Holy Ghost, also called the baptism of the Spirit, comes later. Just as Peter laid it out in Acts 2:38.


And continued to do so after His death and resurrection, as Jesus did command it in Matt 28:19.


Good use of the term "church".
I'm surprised Jesus didn't say "synagogue".
Perhaps prophetically looking ahead?
As Jesus' disciples weren't meeting in their own building as a congregation, the term "church" just implies adherents to a certain set of doctrines when used from Jesus' times.
Now we say "Christian church" to differentiate it from other doctrines.
But in Jesus' times there was no other doctrines besides Judaism for the children of God.


Indeed, it would be sad.
But the Israelites had the Law of Moses for their salvation in the times before Christ's resurrection.
As they were still walking in the flesh instead of the Spirit, until they could kill and bury their old selves at their water baptism into Christ and into His death and resurrection, it wouldn't be till after Jesus was killed, buried, and resurrected that they, we, could walk in the Spirit...and be a "church" of our own.


Amen to that, to the glory of God and to the name of Jesus Christ.

Start a new thread please and call it whatever you like.

We will continue to discuss this matter there.

I can move my post with these answers to that thread.




Thank you.

 

[Hopeful]

The Abrahamic Covenant.


The New Covenant is the “Renewed” Abrahamic Covenant.

That’s why we are called children of Abraham and we have access to the blessing of Abraham, who walked in Covenant relationship with the same Lord we do today.

We are grafted into the natural olive tree, whose root supports us.



JLB

I see it more as a departure from the Abrahamic covenant.
It could make nothing perfect, whereas the NC can.

 

[Hopeful]

No, we don’t.

Just Church.

Frankly speaking, there are alleged "churches" that preach satanism, and other equally futile doctrine.
Is that the "church" founded on Christ?

Just because someone uses the term "church" doesn't mean it is from God.

 

[Hopeful]

No, actually that is the narrative that some may teach.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8
JLB

Salvation didn't come to the OT adherents to the Mosaic Covenant because of a promise to future generations.
If it had, why was there even a Law given?
The promise should have been sufficient for their salvation.
The fulfillment of the hope brought salvation to men.

 

[Hopeful]

“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16
JLB

Amen to that, but they could not "press into something" that was not yet provided...that being the body of Christ.