[__ Science __ ] Is Historical Science Useful?

[hawkman]

I'm not much of a theologian. I'm just interested in knowing what God wants of me, and fulfilling that to the best of my ability.

I suspect you are a better theologian than me . You were a science teacher , correct ? What age groups and what kind of science , if you don't mind saying ?

 

[Barbarian]

I suspect you are a better theologian than me . You were a science teacher , correct ? What age groups and what kind of science , if you don't mind saying ?

Well, I was an ergonomist for many years. When I retired, I did what I always wanted to do, but couldn't afford to do while I was raising kids. I became a science teacher. Secondary schools, everything from seniors to 6th grade.

Biology, physics, and general science.

 

[Quantrill]

No I didn't. I didn't start believing evolution. God can certainly create something right the first time.

Just trying to remain open minded cuz I don't know it all. What I wrote was the short version but he went through all his stuff with scriptures and he made it sound feasibly possible. I haven't changed camps but I have been wrong before and I managed to learn some things by being teachable.

Now that don't mean I swallow all that evolution what comes from Barbarian, just what ifing.

God did certainly create it right the first time. As is recorded in (Genesis).

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I notice that archaeological finds have often confirmed the Biblical accounts, and creationists have no problem citing them. Likewise, the fact of a great flood in the area and at the time that would be consistent with the story of Noah seems to be a sensible clue that the story recounts and actual event, not a parable of the Ur flood story that would have been known to the Israelites. There is some archaeological evidence for it as well. Why would you scoff at the evidence in God's creation?

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

We don't need science's confirmation. We have God's written record. Whether science confirms or not is immaterial.

But it is not immaterial with you. As you interpret the Bible through your science.

The Bible doesn't record a flood in the area. It records a flood over the whole earth.

(Rom. 1:20) adds nothing to the discussion. It does not prove your view of evolution. It does not prove any local flood. What it proves is your dependence on science for what you believe in the Bible.

Your attempt to use (Rom. 1:20) to support you is nothing but a self-inflicted wound. It is not written to support your science's understanding of the origins of man or the world. It is written to declare the wrath of God against those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. (Rom. 1:18) Who became fools. (Rom. 1:22) Who changed God's glory into an image of corruptible man, and birds, and beasts, and creeping things. (Rom. 1:23) Remind you of someone...Darwin?

In other words, evolution is nothing but foolishness. It denies the Creation record as given in (Genesis). Instead it gives glory to the evolution of man from lower forms of life. Those birds, beasts, and creeping things.

Science holds the truth in unrighteousness. It has the creation before it, yet it denies God as the Creator.

And please don't ignore my post #(128).

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

It's just a physical fact. Any wooden vessel that large will flex and leak in the ocean. The flexing will open seams, no matter how they are arranged.

The largest wooden ship ever built, the Wyoming (about 1/2 as long as the stated length of the ark) required pumps to remove leakage, and sank in heavy seas, when the pumps could not keep up.

Your physical facts don't matter. There was no need for a pump. God shut the door. God sent the flood. And God sealed the boat. God didn't build the boat in Wyoming. No wonder it leaked.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Ahh , I have not left the thread ! Here is a link that has some interesting info . Maybe you have not seen it .
I need to go swim and exercise I will return .

https://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

I'm not interested in a 'link' when you provide nothing for what it is supporting, and provide nothing of your view of it.

Quantrill

 

[Edward]

We don't need science's confirmation. We have God's written record. Whether science confirms or not is immaterial.

But it is not immaterial with you. As you interpret the Bible through your science.

The Bible doesn't record a flood in the area. It records a flood over the whole earth.

(Rom. 1:20) adds nothing to the discussion. It does not prove your view of evolution. It does not prove any local flood. What it proves is your dependence on science for what you believe in the Bible.

Your attempt to use (Rom. 1:20) to support you is nothing but a self-inflicted wound. It is not written to support your science's understanding of the origins of man or the world. It is written to declare the wrath of God against those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. (Rom. 1:18) Who became fools. (Rom. 1:22) Who changed God's glory into an image of corruptible man, and birds, and beasts, and creeping things. (Rom. 1:23) Remind you of someone...Darwin?

In other words, evolution is nothing but foolishness. It denies the Creation record as given in (Genesis). Instead it gives glory to the evolution of man from lower forms of life. Those birds, beasts, and creeping things.

Science holds the truth in unrighteousness. It has the creation before it, yet it denies God as the Creator.

And please don't ignore my post #(128).

Quantrill

Wow, you don't pull no punches do you? Lol. You are correct too. I agree with what you said. It is true.

But consider where he is coming from with his perspective. He is a Teacher. And a Science Teacher too, you can hear that when he talks. And apparently, he is very good at it too,

So what can we say? He has been conformed to this world because they trained him! So perhaps he has a bit of overcoming to do before he is transformed by the renewing of his mind..(Romans 12:2 I think). But you and I have some overcoming and transforming to do also. So he has some things wrong. So what? So do you. So do I. Everybody does.

Talking with him sure makes me feel good about I didn't go to college. If I had went to college, I know I'd be a punk by now. I feel like I dodged a bullet!

 

[Barbarian]

The Bible doesn't record a flood in the area. It records a flood over the whole earth.

Actually, it doesn't. Nowhere does it say it covered the whole earth. It says it covered the land (erets), which is not the word for "world." If it meant the entire world, it would have said "tevel" rather than "erets" which means a certain amount of land, such as "erets Israel" (the land of Israel).

This is why we have to be extremely careful not to inject our own ideas into scripture.

 

[hawkman]

I'm not interested in a 'link' when you provide nothing for what it is supporting, and provide nothing of your view of it.

Quantrill

The link shows cultures around the world have a story of the flood . It supports Noah's flood as being a real happening . I was in a hurry , my wife was waiting on me .

 

[hawkman]

It's just a physical fact. Any wooden vessel that large will flex and leak in the ocean. The flexing will open seams, no matter how they are arranged.

The largest wooden ship ever built, the Wyoming (about 1/2 as long as the stated length of the ark) required pumps to remove leakage, and sank in heavy seas, when the pumps could not keep up.

Some things to think about .
The Wyoming carried cargo and was designed so the cargo could be loaded and off loaded . The Wyoming was designed by man . The Wyoming was in service over 10 years .

The Ark had cargo but most of the cargo loaded itself through one door ( as far as we know ) . The Ark had one mission to stay afloat , no docking . God is the one who picked out the materials and he designed the Ark .

 

[Barbarian]

The Ark had cargo but most of the cargo loaded itself through one door ( as far as we know ) . The Ark had one mission to stay afloat , no docking . God is the one who picked out the materials and he designed the Ark .

God does miracles. And this would be a miracle, since there is no way to put together a wooden vessel that large, without major leaking.

 

[Quantrill]

Wow, you don't pull no punches do you? Lol. You are correct too. I agree with what you said. It is true.

But consider where he is coming from with his perspective. He is a Teacher. And a Science Teacher too, you can hear that when he talks. And apparently, he is very good at it too,

So what can we say? He has been conformed to this world because they trained him! So perhaps he has a bit of overcoming to do before he is transformed by the renewing of his mind..(Romans 12:2 I think). But you and I have some overcoming and transforming to do also. So he has some things wrong. So what? So do you. So do I. Everybody does.

Talking with him sure makes me feel good about I didn't go to college. If I had went to college, I know I'd be a punk by now. I feel like I dodged a bullet!

No one overcomes by denying the clear testimony of the Word of God.

You are correct. Knowledge from the world does not produce knowledge of God. In fact, it is what got us all in trouble in the first place. (Gen. 2:9) "...the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Actually, it doesn't. Nowhere does it say it covered the whole earth. It says it covered the land (erets), which is not the word for "world." If it meant the entire world, it would have said "tevel" rather than "erets" which means a certain amount of land, such as "erets Israel" (the land of Israel).

This is why we have to be extremely careful not to inject our own ideas into scripture.

Actually it does.

(Gen. 7:17-23) "...and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered....and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died....."

No need to be careful here about what is clearly stated.

Of course, you don't have to believe it. Just quit trying to change it. Have your faith in science. But don't use your science to interpret the Bible. Which is what you do.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

The link shows cultures around the world have a story of the flood . It supports Noah's flood as being a real happening . I was in a hurry , my wife was waiting on me .

We don't need the cultures of the world to prove the flood. The Bible declares it, so it is so. Once you begin using the proofs of the world to prove the Bible, you lose.

Everything about the flood was miraculous and from God. Everything. The world will never come to, or support that.

Quantrill

 

[Edward]

No one overcomes by denying the clear testimony of the Word of God.

You are correct. Knowledge from the world does not produce knowledge of God. In fact, it is what got us all in trouble in the first place. (Gen. 2:9) "...the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

Quantrill

That's correct but not quite what I was saying. The truth as I see it is that all men are slow learners. I think it's all about who you hang out with and talk to when you're young.

Jesus hung out with the Rabbis in the temple. Barbarian prolly hung out with science folk when young. I've always seemed to gravitate to the adults and hang with them. Little wonder it takes us 50 years on this planet to even get a clue to what's really going on here.

And you made a real good point in what you said about science does not prove the Bible...The complete truth of the matter is that while science does not prove, the Bible...the Bible does prove science!

And I've never hear our Brother deny God, and that's a very good sign. He's worth praying for. Where he may fall a bit short understanding and believing the scriptures'...welcome to the club Bro! But I don't think that puts his salvation in jeopardy.

So we all continue to grow and learn slowly. From what I can tell, people will accept new truths into themselves, when they are ready to. Him, you, and me too. Everybody is the remedial class on this earth, lol.

Like it is said, if you teach a man science when he is young, when he is old it will be difficult to depart from it.

 

[Barbarian]

(Gen. 7:17-23) "...and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered....and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died....."

As you have seen, it said the "land" (erets) was covered, but did not say the whole world(tevel) was covered. "Erets" is used for a certain expanse of land. "Tevel" is used for the whole world. So the text clearly does not say the entire world was flooded.

The confusion came later when in Hellenistic times, "world" became used for the Roman Empire. Hence when the Bible says that Caesar Augustus did census of the whole world, it meant "the Roman Empire."

 

[hawkman]

We don't need the cultures of the world to prove the flood. The Bible declares it, so it is so. Once you begin using the proofs of the world to prove the Bible, you lose.

Everything about the flood was miraculous and from God. Everything. The world will never come to, or support that.

Quantrill

In my limited study of science I have NOT seen anything that disproves the Bible , quite the opposite . The more I study science it cries out there is a God !

 

[Barbarian]

In my limited study of science I have NOT seen anything that disproves the Bible , quite the opposite . The more I study science it cries out there is a God !

True. How could God's creation refute His word? It might end up showing that someone's interpretation of the Bible is at fault. But that's not the same thing at all.

 

[Quantrill]

As you have seen, it said the "land" (erets) was covered, but did not say the whole world(tevel) was covered. "Erets" is used for a certain expanse of land. "Tevel" is used for the whole world. So the text clearly does not say the entire world was flooded.

The confusion came later when in Hellenistic times, "world" became used for the Roman Empire. Hence when the Bible says that Caesar Augustus did census of the whole world, it meant "the Roman Empire."

(Gen. 17:17-23) "...and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth,...of fowl...of cattle...of beast....of every creeping thing...every man...All in whose nostrils was the breath of life...died...Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him..."

The text clearly says the entire world was flooded.

The confusion is with you and your science that does not believe it.

Again, please answer my post (128) directed at you.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

In my limited study of science I have NOT seen anything that disproves the Bible , quite the opposite . The more I study science it cries out there is a God !

If your study is 'limited' what does it prove? That is not the point. If your study of science leads you to interpret the Bible through science, then you pervert the Scriptures. You pervert the Word of God.

Science is incomplete knowledge. The Bible is absolute knowledge.

You are not on a slippery slope...you have fallen over the ledge. You trust science to demonstrate God...not the revealed Word of God.

Quantrill