Blessing of Election !

[Fastfredy0]

I don't have time at the moment to address these. However, I will when I have a few minutes. Each of these passages when understood in context can be shown to be saying something other than what you're suggesting.

You are intelligent and articulate. Those are only 7 of 50ish verses supporting (IMO) election/predestination/appointment/choosing by God. Let's not waste each others time. You won't accept my interpretation and vice versa. There ... saved a lot of time. I would like to see your verses stating a person believed in God salvifically and that belief was via FREE WILL. Find me those FREE WILL verses. Not verses saying person "A" chose to believe with no explanation of why. Rather, person "A" chose to believe completely independent of God's influence.

1. Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to dwell in Your courts. We will be filled with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple.
2. Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written
   The days that were appointed for me, When as yet there was not one of them [even taking shape].

1. Amos 3:2 You only (Israel) have I known [equivalent to salvation – see definitions] of all the families of the earth.
2. Matthew 11:21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. [God determined their choice]
3. Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God]
4. Matthew 13:11 And He replied to them, to you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
5. Matthew 15:13 He answered, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant [non-elect] will be torn up by the roots.
6. Matthew 20:1-16 … 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. This is in regards to the choosing of the elect to enter the kingdom of heaven
7. Matthew 21:43 I tell you, for this reason the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce the fruits of it. Salvation taken away from a group in general

1. Matthew 22:14 For many are called (invited, summoned), but few are chosen.”
2. Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and they will provide great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones).
3. Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose [for Himself], He shortened the days.
4. Luke 10:20 Your names are written in heaven 21 In that same hour He rejoiced and gloried in the Holy Spirit and said, I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have concealed these things [relating to salvation] from the wise and understanding and learned, and revealed them to babes (the childish, unskilled, and untaught). Yes, Father, for such was Your gracious will and choice and good pleasure.
5. Luke 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. do the sheep (men) chose the shepherd (Christ)?John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. [the action is the Father giving to the Son; believers are not involved in the transaction save their coming is the result of the Father’s action][Counter argument: Perhaps the reason for the father’s gift is the choice of men. Salvation is dependent upon giving; one does not give because one foresees faith]John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

 

[Fastfredy0]

1. John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. For Jesus knew from the first who did not believe and had no faith and who would betray Him and be false to Him. 65 And he said, “This [referring to “some of you fail to believe in verse 64] is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] him by the Father.”
2. John 12:39-40 “They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.” Matthew 13:14-15; Isaiah 6:9-10 – God hardens and blinds some men so they cannot understand
3. Seven times Jesus speaks of believers as given to Him by the Father. John 17:2; 6 twice; 9, 11, 12, 24
4. John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I [Jesus] chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. … and by extension, all Christians … Arminian: "You have 'chosen' me only because you know that I would choose you, so that my will logically precedes and determines your will!" He says, "If conversion is necessary, then by my will I will turn against my wickedness, even my own evil will, by my might I will escape from Satan's hold and sin's grip, and by my power I will turn to Christ and permit him to save me, as if I need him at all." Vincent Cheung
5. John 15:19b but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.John 17:2; 6, 11, 12, 24 Seven times Jesus speaks of believers as given to Him by the Father.
6. John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. [Counter argument: Perhaps the reason for the father’s gift is the choice of men]
7. 
   
8. Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for this man is a [deliberately] chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; The conversion of Paul was of God and not from his acknowledgement and belief of those he persecuted.
9. Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed (decided on beforehand; designated) for eternal life believed.
10. Acts 17:26 "And He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation." Since God plans where people will live and knows billions will live in areas that never hear the salvific gospel, God has determined these people to be among the unelect.
11. Acts 18:27 When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.
12. Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things [divine undertakings-divine foreknowledge, divine predestination, divine calling, divine justification and glorification] work together for good, for those who are called [effectual call] according to his purpose [God’s purpose CANNOT be thwarted]. 29 For those whom he foreknew [foreknown in the Bible always refers to a person/people and NOT the actions of a man/people] he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called [an efficacious call that cannot be rejected], and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
13. Romans 9:11 And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God’s purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them] [effectual call]
14. Romans 9:18 So then, He has mercy on whom He wills (chooses), and He hardens [the heart of] whom He wills.
15. Roman 10:20b “I have been found by those who did not seek Me; I have shown Myself to those who did not [consciously] ask for Me.”
16. Romans 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." [The verb ‘reserved’ is an action attributed to God, not the 7,000 men) 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant (a small believing minority), selected (chosen) by grace (by God’s unmerited favor and graciousness). 6 But if it is by grace (His unmerited favor and graciousness), it is no longer conditioned on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace [it would be meaningless]. 7 What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God’s favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it).Thus the idea of inherent good foreseen in those chosen, or of anything meritorious performed by them, is rigidly excluded.
17. Romans 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord;
18. Who does God elect and why: 1 Corinthians 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called [effectual call]. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
19. Galatian 1:15 But when God, who had chosen me and set me apart before I was born, and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me

 

[Fastfredy0]

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• Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace and favor, which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved [His Son, Jesus Christ].
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will [salvation, while occurring in the temporal order, is a result of a pre-temporal choice of the Father] [Such a statement could not be made in truthfulness if the execution of His purpose depended upon a cooperation with others which was in their power to withhold.}
• Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
• Philippians 1:29-30 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him, since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.
• Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
• Colossians 3:12b Put on then, as God's chosen ones
• 1 Thessalonians 1:4 [O] brethren beloved by God, we recognize and know that He has selected (chosen) you; 5 For our [preaching of the] glad tidings (the Gospel) came to you not only in word, but also in [its own inherent] power and in the Holy Spirit and with great conviction and absolute certainty [on our part]. [Without this accompanying work of the Spirit the preaching would be in vain, but with it men believe the truth proclaimed.]
• 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us to [incur His] wrath [He did not select us to condemn us], but [that we might] obtain [His] salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah).
• 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you [speaking of individuals and not the Church as a whole] from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit [new birth] and faith in the truth. The order of thought here is most important and instructive. First, God's eternal choice; second, the sanctification of the Spirit; third, belief of the truth. The same order is seen in 1 Peter 1:2 where obedience is obedience of faith
• 2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I [am ready to] persevere and stand my ground with patience and endure everything for the sake of the elect [God’s chosen],
• 2 Timothy 2:25 He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant [God’s initiative; not man’s] that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],
• James 2:5 "Hath not God chosen the poor of this world, rich in faith."
• 1 Peter 1:1 To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
• 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated nation, [God’s] own purchased, special people, that you may set forth the wonderful deeds and display the virtues and perfections of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
• 2 Peter 1:10 Because of this, brethren, be all the more solicitous and eager to make sure (to ratify, to strengthen, to make steadfast) your calling [effectual call] and election; for if you do this, you will never stumble or fall.
• 2 John 1:1 The elderly elder [of the church addresses this letter] to the elect (chosen) lady (Cyria) and her children
• Titus 1:1b for the faith of God’s chosen ones [election is not the consequence of faith, but faith is the consequence of election
• Revelation 13:8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world. [those who do not give in to persecution and begin to worship the beast are persons whose names have been written in the book of life before the foundation of the world]
• Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written [not chosen by God] in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. (Hebrews 12:23; Luke 10:20)
• Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them; for He is Lord of lords and King of kings—and those with Him and on His side are chosen and called [elected] and loyal and faithful followers.

 

[Fastfredy0]

A command to believe does not constitute "free will" as you are using it.

Amen.

they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn ... yeah, I took it out of context but I couldn't resist.

 

[Butch5]

You don't define what the apostles mission was. If their mission was not to be killed then they failed their mission. But this is of no matter. It is God's mission (purpose) that is relevant. I say God predetermines all things (Eph. 1:11) and therefore He is TOTALLY successful by definition. Your theology of man's Free Will determining things threatens God's mission (unless God's mission is to serve man's Free Will). Does God want 5% (or whatever the number is) to be saved as determined by man per your system or does God want 5% to be saved as determined by Him. Your doctrine is anthropocentric; mine is theocentric. You praise, to some extent, man and I praise God.



Again, you praise man and man's interpretation of scripture (re: the church). There is no mention of Free Will in the bible (except 'free will' offerings) so the church's unbiblical doctrine is of little interest to me. Whereas, my sole authority is scripture though I am willing to consider interpretive opinions of scripture presented by man. (Sola Scriptura)

Firstly, how about we ditch the straw man arguments? As I said, I was Reformed, I know how it works. No one is praising man, that's a straw man. If God tells man to make a choice, then it's God not man. Also, saying "your free will doctrine" is fallacious as it attempts to make the understanding mine rather than that of the church for 1500 years.

Secondly, Ephesian 1:11 is referring to Gods purpose through Israel. It's not a universal statement (context). This is where the Westminster Confession runs into trouble. It tries to say that God controls all things yet is not the author of sin. When you ask how that can be you're told it's a mystery. It's not a mystery. It's logical contradiction. It's men who didn't understand the Scriptures trying to force the Scriptures to fit what they believed.

Jesus sent the apostles out to take the Gospel to the nations. If your doctrine is correct they failed to do that. Rather they taught something different. That kind of puts you between a rock and a hard place. Either the apostles succeeded in taking the Gospel to the nations and starting the church or your doctrine is correct and they didn't. That leaves us with the option of taking the apostles actions or your interpretation. Which is correct? Since the Scriptures say that Jesus Himself personally opened the understanding on the apostles, I'm going to have to go with them.

Regarding the church. Many of those who held free will were directly taught by the apostles. So it's not interpretation, it's what they were taught. They weren't interpreting Scripture. Again, in rejecting the first beliefs you have to reject the apostles, you have to reject the apostles in favor of your interpretation of the text.

 

[Butch5]

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• Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace and favor, which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved [His Son, Jesus Christ].
• Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will [salvation, while occurring in the temporal order, is a result of a pre-temporal choice of the Father] [Such a statement could not be made in truthfulness if the execution of His purpose depended upon a cooperation with others which was in their power to withhold.}
• Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
• Philippians 1:29-30 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him, since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.
• Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
• Colossians 3:12b Put on then, as God's chosen ones
• 1 Thessalonians 1:4 [O] brethren beloved by God, we recognize and know that He has selected (chosen) you; 5 For our [preaching of the] glad tidings (the Gospel) came to you not only in word, but also in [its own inherent] power and in the Holy Spirit and with great conviction and absolute certainty [on our part]. [Without this accompanying work of the Spirit the preaching would be in vain, but with it men believe the truth proclaimed.]
• 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us to [incur His] wrath [He did not select us to condemn us], but [that we might] obtain [His] salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah).
• 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you [speaking of individuals and not the Church as a whole] from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit [new birth] and faith in the truth. The order of thought here is most important and instructive. First, God's eternal choice; second, the sanctification of the Spirit; third, belief of the truth. The same order is seen in 1 Peter 1:2 where obedience is obedience of faith
• 2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I [am ready to] persevere and stand my ground with patience and endure everything for the sake of the elect [God’s chosen],
• 2 Timothy 2:25 He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant [God’s initiative; not man’s] that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],
• James 2:5 "Hath not God chosen the poor of this world, rich in faith."
• 1 Peter 1:1 To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
• 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated nation, [God’s] own purchased, special people, that you may set forth the wonderful deeds and display the virtues and perfections of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
• 2 Peter 1:10 Because of this, brethren, be all the more solicitous and eager to make sure (to ratify, to strengthen, to make steadfast) your calling [effectual call] and election; for if you do this, you will never stumble or fall.
• 2 John 1:1 The elderly elder [of the church addresses this letter] to the elect (chosen) lady (Cyria) and her children
• Titus 1:1b for the faith of God’s chosen ones [election is not the consequence of faith, but faith is the consequence of election
• Revelation 13:8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world. [those who do not give in to persecution and begin to worship the beast are persons whose names have been written in the book of life before the foundation of the world]
• Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written [not chosen by God] in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. (Hebrews 12:23; Luke 10:20)
• Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them; for He is Lord of lords and King of kings—and those with Him and on His side are chosen and called [elected] and loyal and faithful followers.

The majority of these refer to Israel. Israel is God's elect. The rest are referring to believers. Well, of course believers are elect, they've been grafted into Israel. What you haven't shown is Scripture telling the heathen that they were chosen. Since you want such exacting definitions you should give the same. Show is where some tells the heathen that they are elect. Where is Scripture telling some lost heathen that he was chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world?

 

[Fastfredy0]

No one is praising man, that's a straw man.

You praise yourself as you take partial credit for your salvation, the source of which is your proposed Free Will. God, according to your doctrine, gives everyone the potential to be saved but His work is insufficient for salvation. Only Christ's work and your own provides you with salvation according to you beliefs. You are also responsible for maintaining your faith til your death for which you earn kudos/praise also. (I admit I am assuming you don't believe in the preservation of the saints). This is not a straw man. It is the consequences of your belief system. Praise you.

• Your belief in free will take away from the freedom of God to choose and transfers it to the glory of individuals that chose Him.
• Your belief in free will supports dualism .. the belief that there is another source of creation ... man somehow creates his own will and God creates everything else
• Your belief in free will denies salvation as a gift of God, for a gift some without conditions
• If you want to talk about irrationality then try to talk about Free Will coming into being from nothing by itself. It would have to be self-created and for something to create itself it would have to be before it was which is a contradiction. So it can be said of the idea that God investigated nothing, which man was before the foundation of the earth, and from it found out what decision each human would make in regard to salvation.
• on and on it goes .....

Also, saying "your free will doctrine" is fallacious as it attempts to make the understanding mine rather than that of the church for 1500 years.

I don't care whose understanding Free Will belongs too. I only care about what scripture says about it. Again, free will as you define it (not that you have defined it) is not found in scripture. It is made up. I stand to be corrected ... show me the Free Will verses. (Aside: Not free will offering verses which is a red herring)

Jesus sent the apostles out to take the Gospel to the nations. If your doctrine is correct they failed to do that. Rather they taught something different. That kind of puts you between a rock and a hard place. Either the apostles succeeded in taking the Gospel to the nations and starting the church or your doctrine is correct and they didn't. That leaves us with the option of taking the apostles actions or your interpretation. Which is correct? Since the Scriptures say that Jesus Himself personally opened the understanding on the apostles, I'm going to have to go with them.

I don't follow your logic so I can't comment. What does the great commission have to do with election?
Where do the apostles teach God did not chose individuals for salvation; not man choosing by free will ( Free Will is not found in the bible).
Aside: Maybe you are a Roman Catholic and believe the church is infallible. You seems to mention the church as much as scripture.

Regarding the church. Many of those who held free will were directly taught by the apostles. So it's not interpretation, it's what they were taught.

So what? Stop telling me what the church believed and didn't believe at time "X" and time "Y". The denominations often 'screw it up'. Use scripture ... not the church for you argumentation.

Aside: If you think the doctrines of the church are the source of infallible information then we have different presuppositions making this waste our time.

 

[Butch5]

You praise yourself as you take partial credit for your salvation, the source of which is your proposed Free Will. God, according to your doctrine, gives everyone the potential to be saved but His work is insufficient for salvation. Only Christ's work and your own provides you with salvation according to you beliefs. You are also responsible for maintaining your faith til your death for which you earn kudos/praise also. (I admit I am assuming you don't believe in the preservation of the saints). This is not a straw man. It is the consequences of your belief system. Praise you.

• Your belief in free will take away from the freedom of God to choose and transfers it to the glory of individuals that chose Him.
• Your belief in free will supports dualism .. the belief that there is another source of creation ... man somehow creates his own will and God creates everything else
• Your belief in free will denies salvation as a gift of God, for a gift some without conditions
• If you want to talk about irrationality then try to talk about Free Will coming into being from nothing by itself. It would have to be self-created and for something to create itself it would have to be before it was which is a contradiction. So it can be said of the idea that God investigated nothing, which man was before the foundation of the earth, and from it found out what decision each human would make in regard to salvation.
• on and on it goes .....

This is about as nonsensical as anything I've heard. Who told you these things? They're fallacious. Non sequitur comes to mind

I don't care whose understanding Free Will belongs too. I only care about what scripture says about it. Again, free will as you define it (not that you have defined it) is not found in scripture. It is made up. I stand to be corrected ... show me the Free Will verses. (Aside: Not free will offering verses which is a red herring)

It is in Scripture. I've already given you several passages that show it

I don't follow your logic so I can't comment. What does the great commission have to do with election?
Where do the apostles teach God did not chose individuals for salvation; not man choosing by free will ( Free Will is not found in the bible).
Aside: Maybe you are a Roman Catholic and believe the church is infallible. You seems to mention the church as much as scripture.

It's simple. If you're right, then the apostles taught the wrong doctrine, because all of their disciples believed in Free Will. Of course we know they didnt teach the wrong doctrine. So, you know what th as t means...

So what? Stop telling me what the church believed and didn't believe at time "X" and time "Y". The denominations often 'screw it up'. Use scripture ... not the church for you argumentation.

Aside: If you think the doctrines of the church are the source of infallible information then we have different presuppositions making this waste our time.

I don't think the Church is infallible. However, when those taught by the apostles hold a doctrine universally, I've got to figure they got it from the apostles.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The majority of these refer to Israel.

The verses speak to individuals and not a nation. (I grant that the nation of Israel is elect, but not in a salvific way).

The rest are referring to believers.

Believers are the object of election in this discussion so of course the verses I selected about 'election' refers to believers.

Well, of course believers are elect, they've been grafted into Israel.

Agreed. There is no difference now between Jew and Gentile.

Show is where some tells the heathen that they are elect. Where is Scripture telling some lost heathen that he was chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world?

Acts 10 ... the story of Cornelius. God does all the work. Sends Peter who gives a salvific message to Cornelius who is regenerated. Also the Roman jailer.

Premise 1: The elect in this discussion are those chosen/elected/appointed/predestined by God (or by themselves in your opinion) for salvation
Premise 2: It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”…
Conclusion: Gentiles are among the elect

 

[Butch5]

The verses speak to individuals and not a nation. (I grant that the nation of Israel is elect, but not in a salvific way).

Why, because you say so? You're just making my point for me. As I've said, Reformed Theology is a theology of proof texts. You're making my case. Rather than address the passages in context you're just randomly applying them where necessary to fit you theology.

Believers are the object of election in this discussion so of course the verses I selected about 'election' refers to believers.

Again, in context the passages don't prove your point.

Agreed. There is no difference now between Jew and Gentile.





Acts 10 ... the story of Cornelius. God does all the work. Sends Peter who gives a salvific message to Cornelius who is regenerated. Also the Roman jailer.

Premise 1: The elect in this discussion are those chosen/elected/appointed/predestined by God (or by themselves in your opinion) for salvation
Premise 2: It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”…
Conclusion: Gentiles are among the elect

Really, it's funny that before the angel appeared Cornelius had been praying. It says he was a devout man who feared God and prayed always. That hardly sounds like a lost heathen. However, where does anything here say that God made Cornelius believe? Where does it say Cornelius was saved before he believed? Where does it say Cornelius was chosen.

Its funny how you want very explicitly worded passages for Free Will, but then present passages that don't really even address what you've claimed.

Have you noticed a difference in how we post? I post a passage of Scripture and then explain how it fits what I say. You guys tell us what the Bible says, then post Scripture to attempt to prove it.

 

[Fastfredy0]

This is about as nonsensical as anything I've heard. Who told you these things? They're fallacious. Non sequitur comes to mind

You take credit for your salvation by the instrument of Free Will. You, with God's help, saved yourself. The logic is plain.

Premise 1: To be saved is possibly the most wondrous thing that can happen to a man
Premise 2: According to you, one cannot be saved unless he, via his free will that God has nothing to do with, saves himself.
Conclusion: According to you, you are partially responsible for your salvation. Good for you.

It is in Scripture. I've already given you several passages that show it

Please refresh my memory.

It's simple. If you're right, then the apostles taught the wrong doctrine, because all of their disciples believed in Free Will.

LOL... show me the verses saying the apostles believed in free will. Show me the verses defining free will in regards to salvation.
Even if some followers believed in Free Will ... what followers believe is not infallible. You should not base doctrine of what followers do. Ananias and Sapphira were followers of Peter and that resulted in their deaths for lying to the Holy Spirit. LOL @ we should get our infallible doctrine from what the followers of the apostles did (tradition). This false premise seems to be at the heart of your theology. Are you a R.C? Gee, even Peter got balled out by Paul for not treating Gentiles well; that is not following God's will. Even Peter denied Christ 3 times, yet you insist on doctrine based on what followers of apostles did when even an apostle 'screwed it up' at time.

I don't think the Church is infallible. However, when those taught by the apostles hold a doctrine universally, I've got to figure they got it from the apostles.

This seems to be the crux of our understanding of the source of instructions from God. I believe in Scripture Alone and you believe in Scripture + Tradition ... that's the R.C. model. If your foundation includes TRADITION and since Tradition is substantiated by Tradition (circular logic) then I am not going to try to change your mind.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Really, it's funny that before the angel appeared Cornelius had been praying. It says he was a devout man who feared God and prayed always. That hardly sounds like a lost heathen.

The story later goes on to say the Spirit enters Cornelius which is a sign of regeneration and those that are not regenerated as lost. The story also points out the Cornelius was a heather. (Aside: You have a Israel thing going on that I haven't figured out as it relates to ELECTION. )

However, where does anything here say that God made Cornelius believe?

LOL ... maybe it was just a coincidence that Peter has a vision from God and is "told to go" (chosen/elected) to Cornelius and Cornelius hears from Peter about salvation and believes at that meeting. Like, God could have done nothing and Cornelius would have believed on his own anyways and saved Peter the trip.

Reformed Theology is a theology of proof texts.

Agreed. That why I keep asking for your FREE WILL proof texts. Study to show thyself approved. Show me you Free Will proof text from your studies.

Have you noticed a difference in how we post? I post a passage of Scripture and then explain how it fits what I say. You guys tell us what the Bible says, then post Scripture to attempt to prove it.

There is no difference for the purposes of this discussion. I owe you 15 cents. I can give you a dime and a nickel, or a nickel and a dime. The order is of no significance. One presents ones case by stating a conclusion and proving it or one gives a lot of facts and draws a conclusion.

 

[Butch5]

You take credit for your salvation by the instrument of Free Will. You, with God's help, saved yourself. The logic is plain.

Premise 1: To be saved is possibly the most wondrous thing that can happen to a man
Premise 2: According to you, one cannot be saved unless he, via his free will that God has nothing to do with, saves himself.
Conclusion: According to you, you are partially responsible for your salvation. Good for you.

Fredy, you're going on and on with the fallacies. A free will that God had nothing to do with? That's a straw man. God created man, so if man has free will it was given to him by God.

No, I don't take credit for my salvation. Again that's fallacious. If God tells man to make a choice then it's of God. Man isn't saving himself. But, I think you know that.

Please refresh my memory.

God told the Israelites He had set before them life and death and told them to choose life. Did they?

LOL... show me the verses saying the apostles believed in free will. Show me the verses defining free will in regards to salvation.
Even if some followers believed in Free Will ... what followers believe is not infallible. You should not base doctrine of what followers do. Ananias and Sapphira were followers of Peter and that resulted in their deaths for lying to the Holy Spirit. LOL @ we should get our infallible doctrine from what the followers of the apostles did (tradition). This false premise seems to be at the heart of your theology. Are you a R.C? Gee, even Peter got balled out by Paul for not treating Gentiles well; that is not following God's will. Even Peter denied Christ 3 times, yet you insist on doctrine based on what followers of apostles did when even an apostle 'screwed it up' at time.

Another straw man. My doctrine isn't based on the early church. It a logical argument. The initial believers universally believed in free will. You're proposing something they called heresy. Either the apostles taught free will or everyone they taught got it wrong. Since free will was universally believed and over large geographical it's only logical that the apostles taught it. So, this is additional evidence above what we have in Scripture.

This seems to be the crux of our understanding of the source of instructions from God. I believe in Scripture Alone and you believe in Scripture + Tradition ... that's the R.C. model. If your foundation includes TRADITION and since Tradition is substantiated by Tradition (circular logic) then I am not going to try to change your mind.

I didn't use tradition. I used logic. To hold your doctrine you have to conclude that the thousands and thousands that were taught by the apostles "ALL" misunderstood. They all got it wrong. Do you really believe that those thousands that listened to the apostles all got it wrong, every single one? I mean, they were there. They could ask questions if they misunderstood. They could get clarification if necessary. They weren't reading and interpreting Scripture, they were listening to the apostles.

 

[Butch5]

The story later goes on to say the Spirit enters Cornelius which is a sign of regeneration and those that are not regenerated as lost. The story also points out the Cornelius was a heather. (Aside: You have a Israel thing going on that I haven't figured out as it relates to ELECTION. )

Actually, the spirit falling on some one is different from the indwelling of the spirit. The apostles received the indwelling of the Spirit before Pentecost. What happened at Pentecost was the falling on of the Spirit.

The apostles received the indwelling.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (Jn. 20:21-22 KJV)

Later they received the falling on of the Spirit.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:3-4 KJV)

Luke refers to this as the falling on of the Spirit. We see, that when the Spirit fell upon them they spoke in tongues. This was after they had received the indwelling of the Spirit from Jesus. So, this falling on of the Spirit is not the indwelling. We see that what happened at Cornelius' house involved speaking in tongues so we know this was the falling upon and not the indwelling of the Spirit. We know from Scripture that the indwelling comes at Baptism. So, I would submit that the Spirit falling on Cornelius was not a sign of regeneration. That would have happened at his baptism, which would have happened after he believed.

It's simple, Israel is God's elect. If you want to be one of God's elect, join Israel.

LOL ... maybe it was just a coincidence that Peter has a vision from God and is "told to go" (chosen/elected) to Cornelius and Cornelius hears from Peter about salvation and believes at that meeting. Like, God could have done nothing and Cornelius would have believed on his own anyways and saved Peter the trip.

Peter being told to go, whether chosen or elect has nothing to do with Cornelius being chosen. Let's take your argument a little further. If people were chosen to be saved before they were born God could have just said, I forgive your sins and that would be that. What need is there to send Christ to die? Why have the Gospel message? Lets go further, why even allow any of those who wouldn't saved to be born? No need to have them. Simply allow only those who are chosen. Problem solved. But God didn't do that, why?

Agreed. That why I keep asking for your FREE WILL proof texts. Study to show thyself approved. Show me you Free Will proof text from your studies.

I don't proof text. I exegete Scripture

There is no difference for the purposes of this discussion. I owe you 15 cents. I can give you a dime and a nickel, or a nickel and a dime. The order is of no significance. One presents ones case by stating a conclusion and proving it or one gives a lot of facts and draws a conclusion.

Actually, there's a big difference. I'm exegeting Scripture to form my argument, you guys have your argument and and are trying to prove it with Scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wrong again, Sherlock. The minority who chooses life has God working in them to do so. The rest are in bondage, not free. I gave clear evidence of a distinction between the natural and spiritual, which you refuse to acknowledge. This is found in 1 Cor. 2:14 and elsewhere. But the "free will" of man as you want it to be simply doesn't exist. Unregenerate man is slave to sin, so it takes God enacting spiritual rebirth to set a man free enough to follow Christ by believing the gospel and obeying it. Therefore, it doesn't matter how much "light" (that is, truth) spoken to people; if God doesn't do something major in a person's heart, namely regeneration as described in Eph. 2:5, that truth will go into one ear and out the other.

I disagree with your conclusions about this. When Paul speaks of "vessels of mercy," he is talking about all people, not just Jews.

1 Cor. 2:14 proves you wrong. An unregenerate person CANNOT choose to believe the gospel and obey it. God must make a person spiritual (by virtue of regeneration, that is, being born again - Eph. 2:5), BEFORE they can understand the gospel enough to believe it. Only God gives spiritual ears to hear.

People such as myself who were once intense haters of God and atheists have to be literally threatened with eternal fire judgment by God Himself before they can begin fearing God (this is dragging). Such a person can't possibly love God until some spiritual rebirth and growth starts happening, which begins with a hope in Christ. John 3:36 indicates to us that one not believing (already) in Christ has the wrath of God hanging over his head. And until a person has received spiritual knowledge, understanding, and wisdom from God to pay attention, such people can't know that the wrath of God is real. Finally, God must also supernaturally change a person's disposition of heart and grant them to hear the gospel spiritually, in order for that person to have hope to be reconciled to God through Christ.

You've yet to define it clearly, which tells me you're the one not wanting to discuss it.

"Those who do the will of the Father are those that are saved." I have no argument against this. But the issue is not this idea. The issue is that you seem to think that a person does the will of God by means of his own will that God has nothing to do with. Your idea of "free will" is that a person's will is not God's will, isn't it? After all, "free" equates a disconnection from something, that is, a freedom from something else. And the way you are using the term makes the definition of "free will" as being free from God.

My name is not Sherlock.
You keep bringing up 1 Corinthians 2:14....are there no other verses in the bible?

This is the big problem with calvinism....
The discussion always falls back to two calvinistic ideas:

1. Free will.....easier to blame me of not understanding it since you are UNABLE to show from biblical scripture that it does NOT exist.
2. Total Depravity of Man...another idea which is not biblical.
All men are born depraved...but not so depraved as to be UNABLE to hear the calling of God from the grace God gives to all persons.

Hebrews 4:16
16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

This is to saved persons...and yet Paul states that it is WE who must draw near...free will at work once again.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, [who accept God's conditions]

Joel 2:13
And rend your heart and not your garments.”
Now return to the Lord your God,
For He is gracious and compassionate,
Slow to anger, abounding in loving kindness
And relenting of evil.

Ezra 8:22
“The hand of our God is favorably disposed to all those who seek Him, but His power and His anger are against all those who forsake Him.”

And not everyone that comes to God does so out of fear of hell...
I can attest to that.

You can say a person is wrong all you want to...
that does not make it so,
and you're not very good at proving your points using scripture.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fredy, you're going on and on with the fallacies. A free will that God had nothing to do with? That's a straw man. God created man, so if man has free will it was given to him by God.

You haven't given your definition of Free Will or a biblical reference to God giving man Free Will. Therefore, I cannot comment upon some I know nothing of. (My guess is you don't know anything of a biblical reference to God where He gave man Free Will. Free Will being your (and many others) invention. But, I stand to be corrected. Show me a biblical reference to God where He gave man Free Will. P.S. Thanks for using FredY instead of Fredi ... *giggle*

No, I don't take credit for my salvation.

You may not say so in words, but your doctrine contradicts your words. Your doctrine (correct me if I am wrong) states that God died for everyone and offers salvation to all. Any individual can claim salvation by believing. This is a two person deal (synergism) where salvation involves the work of God and you. Definition of work: physical or mental activity to achieve a purpose. You mental access God's word and decide to believe thus achieving your purpose of salvation. Your righteousness is the deciding factor that saved you from hell. Praise you for what you have done as only 1 in 20 do what you have done. (1 in 20 in my guess-i-mate)

God told the Israelites He had set before them life and death and told them to choose life. Did they?

I asked you to restate your definition of Free Will. This is your answer?????
(Aside: the choosing is not the crux of the discussion. The crux of the discussion is WHY DID THEY CHOOSE. You say Free Will (which I am waiting for a definition of ... I say God caused them to believe for those He chose/called/appointed/predestined....

My doctrine isn't based on the early church.

Either the apostles taught free will or everyone they taught got it wrong. Since free will was universally believed and over large geographical it's only logical that the apostles taught it.

These two statements contradict each other. Your 'logic' is based on tradition. Are you an R.C.?
Aside: Acts 15 is about the early church with much of it thinking one had to be circumcised to be saved. Initially, many go it wrong. This is an example of the early church taught by apostles GETTING IT WRONG. This shows your tradition is fallible and thus your logic is fallible.

I didn't use tradition. I used logic.

You used logic based on tradition. Perhaps you should look up the definition of tradition.
Aside: Some tradition is true ... but it is fallible. The Westminster Confession is tradition. I think most of it is correct. I also think it is fallible.

Wife calling me ... I have to obey....

 

[GodsGrace]

And herein is your error, since you judge Calvin wrongly. Have you even read anything he wrote? I'm certainly no expert on Calvin, but from what I've read of things he wrote, I assess that he was an intense lover of God, and he taught his students to love Christ with all their heart. Your assessment of Calvin is wrong, and constitutes slander against a godly leader. You're doing the very thing Jesus said not to do when He said "judge not, lest you be judged."

You're too funny T,,,
I'm going to have to stop this because you're not being very serious.
I've TOLD YOU that I read the Institutes....Ummm, didn't John Calvin write those books?
SLANDER?
You haven't ever shown me that what I've QUOTED FROM HIS WRITINGS is wrong...you just continue to say it's wrong but that does not let it be so.

And it also seems like you don't know what Jesus meant about judging...

"One is not saved because he wills it, but because He follows Jesus and His commandments." Your statement is true only from a natural point of view. A person who thinks only with natural human reasoning says to himself, "I must follow Jesus and obey His commandments, then I can be saved."

JESUS said we must follow His commandments in order to be saved.
Have you really read the N.T. ??

Matthew 7: THE LAWLESS WILL NOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.
Matthew 5: I HAVE NOT COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW, BUT TO FULFILL IT. (what does fulfill mean??? Is Jesus contradicting Himself??)
John 3:18 ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE IN HIM (GOD) HAS ALREADY BEEN JUDGED. What does BELIEVE mean, anyway??
John 12:26 ANYONE WHO WANTS TO SERVE ME MUST FOLLOW ME.......AND THE FATHER WILL HONOR ANYONE WHO SERVES ME.
John 12:36 PUT YOUR TRUST IN THE LIGHT WHILE THERE IS TIME......Put your trust in the light (sounds like free will).
John 3:36 ANYONE WHO DOESN'T OBEY THE SON WILL NEVER EXPERIENCE ETERNAL LIFE.
John 15:14 YOU ARE MY FRIENDS IF YOU DO WHAT I COMMAND.
John 15:1 MY FATHER CUTS OFF EVERY BRANCH THAT DOES NOT PRODUCE FRUIT.

There's plenty more.
Does that sound like a "natural point of view" to you (as you stated)
or does it sound like what Jesus wants from us?

Yet, the apostle Paul gives us insight into the work of God in that matter in Eph. 2:5. God must first raise a spiritually dead person from spiritual death to life. Then that person has ears to hear the gospel being preached, and then has the wherewithall to obey it by following Jesus and His commandments. "He who has ears to hear" is talking about spiritual ears, and therefore is talking to spiritually alive persons. Those who are spiritually dead can't hear it, and their response will be to not follow Jesus and His commandments (from a spiritual standpoint, and therefore permanently).

Oh for goodness sake.
Now you want to discuss regeneration coming before salvation.
You're all over the place.
You haven't proved ONE POINT yet, and you're on to the next.

If those who are spiritually dead can't hear then why would the verses I have already quoted be in the N.T.??
The ones about how HEARING brings one to salvation....
FAITH COMES BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.

What came first?
HEARING OR FAITH??

This is in total agreement with Peter's statement that God caused us to be born again by means of hearing the gospel (1 Pet. 1:23). Only those whom God chooses to bring to life in that way will be born again, and that also in God's time for each individual. All others are left to follow their own devices. Hearing the gospel preached with natural hearing doesn't automatically make a person born again. Regeneration is a supernatural act that only God does in the spiritual realm to individuals He chooses.

You never answered my question:

WHAT IS THE GOOD NEWS?

Your argument "Nowhere is it stated that God chooses who will be saved" is a straw man. It is only those slandering Calvin who claim that Calvinists claim to know who will be saved. This is a straw man argument. No one knows who will be saved. Yet, this does not in any way negate the fact that God does choose some and not all for salvation. If you are intellectually honest, then you will agree with this statement, that God chooses some and not all. And so the debate between us has to do with the basis, or the reason, for God's choice.

Could you PLEASE post some verses that show that God chooses us?
And could it not be Romans 8:28 or Ephesians 1:5,11 ?

I've listed tens of verses supporting what I say...
Could YOU do the same please.

This request is not a strawman....
or you don't know what strawman means....
if you do, please post some scripture instead of just telling me I'm wrong.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know whether you naively misunderstand what you read, or if you PURPOSELY MISREPRESENT it.

This is what the article says: "in Reformed theology, if God is to save anyone He must predestine, call, elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, indeed is incapable of choosing God." This is the correct idea, not the idea you are claiming. Therefore, you are misrepresenting what the article actually states.

How do I purposefully misrepresent something I linked?

I don't have enough information to discern what MacArthur and Piper believe about that subject, but apparently you think you do. All I know is that I don't believe everything they say. And besides that, I really don't care what other people teach or claim, if their teaching doesn't adhere to what the Bible teaches. I only care what the Bible teaches, and I studied the Bible exclusively for over 20 years, because during that time I was suspicious of other peoples' teachings because of the controversies. What I have discovered since, after I began to read writings on Reformed Theology, is that most of what is written from a Reformed Theology POV is true to the scriptures.

Piper and MacArthur are Calvinists. You certainly sound like one to.
You don't believe in free will.
You believe a person is regenerated and THEN saved.
You believe persons are born totally depraved.

I respect that you've studied the bible for many years. I think almost everyone on this forum has.
You've read reformed writers...have you read the non-reformed writers? OR those opposed to the reformed faith?
That would balance things out and give you the opportunity to really decide.
I've read both.

I agree with this. But having some light doesn't constitute being born again, nor does it constitute enough light to make some kind of choice to believe the gospel.

Your concept of "free will" is wrong. You admitted that you agree with the definition of "free will" is exactly as I stated it, did you not? And I'm saying that man does not, and CANNOT on his own choose to believe and obey the gospel. I'm saying that natural man's will is NOT free, but is in bondage to sin and Satan. Are you now so confused, that you don't even know what we're debating about?

I know what we're debating T....
You stated free will correctly....but then total depravity sets in and that is where the confusion lies.
NOT my confusion.

I maintain man has enough light to choose God (or not).
John says this plainly...

John 1:9 THE ONE WHO IS THE TRUE LIGHT, WHO GIVES LIGHT TO EVERYONE, WAS COMING INTO THE WORLD.

Unregenerate = not born again. Regenerate = born again. Agree?
So if you acknowledge that unregenerate man is not able to choose belief and obedience to the gospel, then why do you have a problem with regeneration before belief?

I never said unregenerate man is not ABLE to choose God..I said he doesn't UNDERSTAND God or His work, as in 1 Cor 2:14.

I've already replied that FAITH comes BEFORE SALVATION.

Here's another verse:

Ephesians 2:8
FOR BY GRACE ARE WE SAVED.....THROUGH FAITH....

What came first?
Faith or salvation?

The problem is that a person doesn't want to until they are born again.

I study the Bible, and I assume that you claim to also. That's completely beside the point. God using the Jews to let the world know about Himself does not negate the clear statement in Rom. 9 that God chooses what individuals He wants to have mercy on, and the fact that it's talking about individuals everywhere, not just Jews.

Yes T...YOU also claim to study the bible but I didn't question you.
Please don't be so personal and let's stick to the subject at hand.

Study up on Romans 9 to 11 --- It's speaking about the Jews being chosen...it's Paul stating that God hasn't failed.

So then, you admit that God loves some more than others. Then God has to make some His children to love them in a special way. This is what John is talking about in John 1:13. But you oppose the idea that God is the one who chooses that, or you oppose the idea that God has His own reason for it. You seem to think that God chooses to make someone His child only after (and because) that someone chooses to obey Him first. Isn't this what you think?

Yes, I believe that salvation is CONDITIONAL.
It's conditional based on the fact the we want to choose to obey God.
This refers back to all the verses I posted about Jesus saying we must obey His commands.

We cannot say we're born again and disobey God.
Jesus said IF we love Him, we will obey Him. John 14:15

It's the thing we are debating about. 1 Cor. 1-2, Eph. 2:1-5, etc.

Why did the doctrine of the Trinity not appear until the 4th Century? Were all those who came before wrong? You believe in the Trinity, don't you? Again, you're setting up a straw man. Reformed Theology and the confessions thereof were written because of the doctrinal corruption of the Roman Catholic Church at the time. Before that, it wasn't debated, and didn't need to be debated. But the corruption in the church and the blatant false teaching of indulgences made the occasion to clarify what the Bible teaches. But in fact, 200 years earlier, John Wycliffe was debating that same doctrinal corruption of the RCC, and was the reason why he was hated by the religious leaders. Later John Huss did the same thing, and was murdered for it.

I agree with you on why the reformation happened.
The doctrine of the Trinity was always present, even in scripture, but the full idea took theologians to work out.
Was Jesus really God? I'm sure you know the history.
The council of Nicea in 325AD was specifically to settle once and for all the heresies that were circulating and to state what the CC believed to be true.
All councils were to settle one matter or another.

However, NO ONE believed that man had no free will or that God chose based on NOTHING before the reformation.
As I've stated, only gnostics believed man did not have free will.

We know that God chooses persons....BUT based on their willingness to adhere to HIS CONDITIONS.

The idea that God chooses person arbitrarily and with no conditions at all goes against everything we know about the nature of God.
(which I've listed up above)

 

[GodsGrace]

tdidymas

Forgot to link attributes:


Here is more from that article on Wikipedia:

In Christianity, God is the creator and preserver of the universe. God is the sole ultimate power in the universe but is distinct from it. The Bible never speaks of God as impersonal. Instead, it refers to him in personal terms– who speaks, sees, hears, acts, and loves. God is understood to have a will and personality and is an all powerful, divine and benevolent being. He is represented in Scripture as being primarily concerned with people and their salvation.[21]

Attributes of God​

Main article: Attributes of God in Christianity
Some attributes ascribed to God in Christian theology


Aseity—That "God is so independent that he does not need us."[24] It is based on Acts 17:25, where it says that God "is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything" (NIV). This is often related to God's self-existence and his self-sufficiency.

• Eternity—That God exists beyond the temporal realm.
• Graciousness—That God extends His favor and gifts to human beings unconditionally as well as conditionally.
• Holiness—That God is separate from sin and incorruptible. Noting the refrain of "Holy, holy, holy" in Isaiah 6:3 and Revelation 4:8,
• Immanence—That although God is transcendent and holy, He is also accessible and can be dynamically experienced.
• Immutability—That God's essential nature is unchangeable.
• Impassibility—That God does not experience emotion or suffering (a more controversial doctrine, disputed especially by open theism).
• Impeccability—That God is incapable of error (sin).
• Incorporeality—That God is without physical composition. A related concept is the spirituality of God, which is derived from Jesus' statement in John 4:24, "God is spirit."
• Love—That God is care and compassion. 1 John 4:16 says "God is love."
• Mission—That God is the supreme liberator. While the Mission of God is not traditionally included in this list, David Bosch has argued that "mission is not primarily an activity of the church, but an attribute of God."[25]
• Omnibenevolence—That God is omnibenevolent. Omnibenevolence of God refers to him being "all good".
• Omnipotence—That God is supremely or all-powerful.
• Omnipresence—That God is the supreme being, existing everywhere and at all times; the all-perceiving or all-conceiving foundation of reality.
• Omniscience—That God is supremely or all-knowing.
• Oneness—That God is without peer, also that every divine attribute is instantiated in its entirety (the qualitative infinity of God). See also Monotheism and Divine simplicity.
• Providence—That God watches over His creation with interest and dedication. While the Providence of God usually refers to his activity in the world, it also implies his care for the universe, and is thus an attribute. A distinction is usually made between "general providence" which refers to God's continuous upholding the existence and natural order of the universe, and "special providence" which refers to God's extraordinary intervention in the life of people.[26] See also Sovereignty.
• Righteousness—That God is the greatest or only measure of human conduct. The righteousness of God may refer to his holiness, to his justice, or to his saving activity through Christ.
• Transcendence—That God exists beyond the natural realm of physical laws and thus is not bound by them;[27] He is also wholly Other and incomprehensible apart from general or special self-revelation.
• Triune—The Christian God is understood (by trinitarian Christians) to be a "threeness" of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that is fully consistent with His "oneness"; a single infinite being who is both within and beyond nature. Because the persons of the Trinity represent a personal relation even on the level of God to Himself, He is personal both in His relation toward us and in His relation toward Himself.
• Veracity—That God is the Truth all human beings strive for; He is also impeccably honest. Titus 1:2 refers to "God, who does not lie."
• Wisdom—That God fully comprehends human nature and the world, and will see His will accomplished in heaven and on earth. Romans 16:27 speaks about the "only wise God".

Regarding IMPECCABILITY....
IF God predestined everything that happens...He certainly did sin. (and this is impossible).
Stealing, murder, etc. is a sin. If God predestined these and other acts...then He sinned.

 

[GodsGrace]

I said I'm not a Calvin expert, and besides that, I'm not here to debate Calvin's teachings, as apparently you are. So, I think we're not even on the same page. I envision a God much greater than apparently you envision, since I envision man as much lower than you envision. I envision man exactly as Paul describes in Rom. 3:10-18.

I've read the Catechism of the RCC. But you appear to make many assertions on what you know nothing of. Why don't you try speaking less and doing more reading?

My point was that you try to debate Calvinism, which you don't even understand, and then when I try to convince you of truth using scripture, you reject it. I think we're not even on the same page.

Your misunderstanding.

Ok, I see that you are admitting that you don't understand what is being said. This is what I've been saying from the start, that you aren't understanding it. You ought to ask questions and listen, rather than to make assertions about what you're not understanding.


I'm in agreement with what you're basing your conclusion on, but your conclusion is still wrong. Giving someone the choice of going to heaven or hell doesn't constitute "free will" as you are using it. The unregenerate are given that choice ("many are called"), but all of them choose hell (indirectly), because "there is none who understands."

Therefore, in order for a person to believe and obey the gospel ("few are chosen"), they must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit so that they have spiritual ears to hear the message (and be wise enough to believe and obey it), since the gospel "is spiritually appraised."

Paul is using Jacob/Esau as an example, not as a concluding point. I think this is where you misunderstand it. Whoever taught you that is wrong, and you should abandon that person as someone to follow.

Paul uses the Jacob/Esau narrative as an example of what God does in choosing people for salvation. God bases His choice on His own purposes and His own will, not the will or actions of the person He chooses. This is the point Paul is making in Rom. 9.

I'm surprised that you agree with anything I say.

Again, your assertions are wrong, and you don't understand what you're talking about. As long as you take this stand, I'm done conversing with you.

Freddy loves you.
But I'm really tired of your insults.