Butch5
Member
You don't have to deny much of the New Testament, you just have understand it in context.
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Blessing of Election !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Who is it who understands the context, and who doesn't? This is what the debate forum is about. So you have the burden of proof to show that you actually do understand scripture in context. But my experience of you is that you harp on verses you took out of context and impose meaning contrary to it.
So where is your argument here? How do you refute that scripture clearly states that believers are predestined? Can you exegete those verses I cited?
Hi Tdidymas,
Free will cannot be labeled a theory because it's found throughout the bible, O.T. and N.T.
Paul's writings are very deep, but they can be understood....also by using other scripture which is just as valid and which confirms free will.
I've often asked to be shown scripture that shows we lost free will in the Garden since we definitely had it then and to which Calvin agreed.
I just don't see any scripture that shows that we have lost that free will.
Preternatural gifts lost in the Garden are: Immortality, infused knowledge, absence of the sin nature.
As to heresy....a heresy is any belief which is not in keeping with what is accepted by the majority of Christianity, or what mainline Christianity affirms to be accepted and is confirmed in scripture. I'm sure you know of the heresies that arose after Christ's ascension....while John was still alive gnosticm was already being taught.
Augustine, in the year 400, began his Christian walk after leaving the heretical gnostic cult called manichaeism and did accept free will until his later years.
No Early Church Theologian (Father) believed we did NOT have free will.
They all affirmed free will until Augustine who was a manichaen for 10 years before turning to Christianity.
We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions,
Justin Martyr 160AD
There is nothing, therefore, to hinder you from changing your evil manner of life, because you are a free man.
Melito 170AD
If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.
Theophilus 180AD
But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.
Irenaeus 180AD
The Lord clearly shows sins and transgressions to be in our own power, by prescribing modes of cure corresponding to the maladies.
Clement of Alexandria 195AD
There are so many more...
For scripture, I'll give you:
Deuteronomy 30:19-20
Isaiah 1:19-20
Matthew 7:24-26
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Does Matthew sound like predestination to you?
Scripture is full of choice - which denotes free will.
This is a problem with the reformed faith.
I have Romans 8:28 posted and Ephesians 1:5,11
That's about it. The entire balance of N.T. teaching is thrown out based on a few verses that are easily explained.
If one wishes to use this method, ANYTHING can be proven by the N.T.
This is why it has to be read and believed as a whole and complete thought and any verse that is even slightly obscure must give way to verses that are
very clear.
Let's go through your 3 verses....
1. John 6:26-30
26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
Jesus had just finished feeding the 5 thousand. The next day disciples (a multitude) went seeking Jesus in Capernum.
Jesus told them not to seek the bread that one eats, but to seek food that brings eternal life. Jesus called this "work".
They then wanted to know what they had to do to also "work" the works of God...
In the end they asked Jesus what "work" HE performed so that they may see.
Naturally, they could not do the work of God...Jesus told them the only work they had to do was believe on the One God had sent.
How does this have anything to do with predestination, as is your belief?
Where does the scripture you posted say anything about God working in a heart?
2. Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
God works everything that happens to His believers for their good.
Even when we suffer through a bad time, God will work some good into it, OR, we could be certain that God has ALLOWED this for our own good.
Believers are CALLED according to His purpose. We are always called FOR A PURPOSE, not for salvation. It is our choice whether or not we wish to be saved.
The jailer asked Paul what he must do to be saved...Paul, the one difficult to understand, replied very simply: Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.
This is a command. It's a prescription - not a description.
Those whom God FOREKNEW, He predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son.
Foreknowing is not predestinating.
What is predestined is that those saved will be conformed to the image of Jesus.
These predestined to be conformed, God calls and justifies.
Could you please explain how predestination FOR SALVATION figures in the above?
I've asked many, but never have received a reply.
3. Ephesians 1:4, 11
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
The above follows Romans 8:28-29
God chose us IN JESUS before the foundation of the world so we could be holy and blameless before God.
We are predestined to adoption as sons through Jesus.
This is the mystery of His will, which God kindly intended for us through Jesus.
Again, the predestinating is God's PURPOSE, not for salvation.
tdidymas
part 2 of 2
Does the Father send or does Jesus draw??
John 12:32
"And if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself".
It's both.
The Father draws all.
God desires that all men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4
If we turn to God, He will save us.
Isaiah 45:22
Jesus stated that the things He said were so that we may be saved.
John 5:34
As you stated: Everyone who has HEARD AND LEARNED from the Father goes to Jesus for salvation.
Many hear, but not all learn.
John 3:16 Those that BELIEVE will have everlasting life.
Nothing here about predestination: Again, this is a prescription on how to be saved.
Free will has nothing to do with natural abilities, UNLESS, you mean in the moral sense.
Free will, biblically speaking, only refers to our choice to do good or to do evil.
We do indeed live in the home of the evil one.
But Paul tells us that we are the slaves of the one we serve...
Romans 6:16 Paul says that WE PRESENT ourselves to the one we wish to serve.
He says we take the action of presenting ourselves....
either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness.
Again, we see here our free will to make a choice of sinning or obeying.
Paul IS speaking to the Jews that were saved or seeking salvation, however Paul does speak of free will by his wording.
Don't you think that if unregenerate man was as evil and under satan's power as you believe, that he would be unable to do any good at all?
Don't you think even some unsaved persons do good? (even if it does not bring to salvation).
Answered above. Everyone who lives a life of sin...IS a slave to sin. This is why WE are free indeed. (different subject).
Also, Jesus did say: IF you abide in My word, you are disciples of mine.
IF....John 8:31
Please don't even go to Romans 9 to 11.
In case you haven't heard this is speaking to corporate salvation (the nation of Israel).
The reformed faith is the only faith that will not accept this. I think John Piper might believe t his, but I can't remember and really do not care to get into this.
Calvinism changes the character of God.
If God loving, merciful and just?
Then He cannot be the God that Calvin envisioned.
God is a just God. If He predestined us to hell through no fault of our own, but only because He chose to do so....
how would that be just?
We all deserve hell?
So then we should all go there. That would be just.
Or we should all not go there. That would be just.
But choosing some and not others is not justice.
If God is sovereign and has the power to do as He wills in our regard, and He is a loving God and a merciful God....
Why can't He show His love for us and save us all ?
There must be something more to all of this other than predestination.
If it were so, then we're serving an evil God that is just toying with us for his own pleasure.
part 2 of 2
Does the Father send or does Jesus draw??
John 12:32
"And if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself".
It's both.
The Father draws all.
God desires that all men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4
If we turn to God, He will save us.
Isaiah 45:22
Jesus stated that the things He said were so that we may be saved.
John 5:34
As you stated: Everyone who has HEARD AND LEARNED from the Father goes to Jesus for salvation.
Many hear, but not all learn.
John 3:16 Those that BELIEVE will have everlasting life.
Nothing here about predestination: Again, this is a prescription on how to be saved.
Yes. I mean determination.
Free will has nothing to do with natural abilities, UNLESS, you mean in the moral sense.
Free will, biblically speaking, only refers to our choice to do good or to do evil.
We do indeed live in the home of the evil one.
But Paul tells us that we are the slaves of the one we serve...
Romans 6:16 Paul says that WE PRESENT ourselves to the one we wish to serve.
He says we take the action of presenting ourselves....
either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness.
Again, we see here our free will to make a choice of sinning or obeying.
Paul IS speaking to the Jews that were saved or seeking salvation, however Paul does speak of free will by his wording.
Don't you think that if unregenerate man was as evil and under satan's power as you believe, that he would be unable to do any good at all?
Don't you think even some unsaved persons do good? (even if it does not bring to salvation).
Answered above. Everyone who lives a life of sin...IS a slave to sin. This is why WE are free indeed. (different subject).
Also, Jesus did say: IF you abide in My word, you are disciples of mine.
IF....John 8:31
Please don't even go to Romans 9 to 11.
In case you haven't heard this is speaking to corporate salvation (the nation of Israel).
The reformed faith is the only faith that will not accept this. I think John Piper might believe t his, but I can't remember and really do not care to get into this.
Scripture does not clearly state that God chooses who will be saved, and I'll give you the biggest reason of all.....
Calvinism changes the character of God.
If God loving, merciful and just?
Then He cannot be the God that Calvin envisioned.
God is a just God. If He predestined us to hell through no fault of our own, but only because He chose to do so....
how would that be just?
We all deserve hell?
So then we should all go there. That would be just.
Or we should all not go there. That would be just.
But choosing some and not others is not justice.
If God is sovereign and has the power to do as He wills in our regard, and He is a loving God and a merciful God....
Why can't He show His love for us and save us all ?
There must be something more to all of this other than predestination.
If it were so, then we're serving an evil God that is just toying with us for his own pleasure.
Butch5
Member
I think after the last discussion it's clear who follows the context. I showed beyond doubt that Eph 1:3-12 was speaking of the Israelites and you refused to acknowledge it. But, yes, I can show how you've got those passages out of context. Romans 8:28-30.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Firstly, who is Paul addressing in this passage? He opens his letter addressing the church at Rome. Then at 2:17 He turns his attention to the Jews and begins addressing them.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; (Rom. 2:17-18 KJV)
The Jews were the ones called a Jew, the Gentiles were not. Paul continues this discourse with the Jewish believers in the church at Rome through to 11:13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles.
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (Rom. 11:13-15 KJV)
From 2:17 through 11:13 Paul is addressing the Jewish believers in the church at Rome. Thus Romans 8:28-30 is addressed to the Jewish believers in that church. OK, we've determined who he is addressing, but, who is he writing about? Well, according to what he wrote, he's referring to those that God foreknew. Who are those people that God foreknew? Paul doesn't leave us guessing. He states plainly who they were.
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. (Rom. 11:1-3 KJV)
So, Paul tells us that those God foreknew are the Israelites. So, this passage isn't referring to Christians as Reformed Theology suggests.
What about John 6?
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
(Jn. 6:44-45 KJV)
Is this a universal statement? Jesus also said,
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 15:24 KJV)
Jesus was sent to Israel. He excluded everything else. Given the context His words applied to Israel. Those the Father would draw were from Israel and they were there in that time. Notice what Jesus said a few verse prior.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (Jn. 6:37 KJV)
Here Jesus says that the Father will give Him some people. These are the ones that can come to Jesus. Is this a universal statement? No, In John 17 Jesus lets us know who these people are.
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (Jn. 17:1-6 KJV)
He we see Jesus speaking of those the Father gave Him in the past tense. He didn't say, that you will give me. He said that you have given me. It's past tense. So those who would come to Christ in John 6 had come to Christ by John 17.
Another way we know that it's not a universal statement is that Jesus said the drawing would change.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (Jn. 12:32 KJV)
Here Jesus said if He was lifted up He would draw all. Well, He was lifted up. Thus, the drawing changed from the Father drawing to Christ drawing. The subjects also changed from the Father drawing a few (to send as apostles) to Jesus drawing all. John also confirms this in his Gospel.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Jn. 1:6-9 KJV)
John the Baptist came to witness to the Light, that through Him all might believe. John qualifies that "all" by saying that the true Light, which is Jesus, gives light, understanding, to every man that comes into the world. He qualifies the "all" with the singular, every man. Thus showing that all indeed means all.
Another way we know that the statement isn't universal is that after Jesus ascended to Heaven, no one could come to Him anymore. How does one come to Jesus when He isn't here. Some will try to say coming to Jesus means to believe. However, that's a metaphorical use when Jesus used it literally, they literally could come to Jesus.
Finally, one big problem for Reformed theology is that it doesn't appear in church history until 1500 years after Christ. wondering has already addressed this subject.
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Wondering:
(Part 1 of 4)
Therefore, your idea that man hasn't lost free will doesn't even come close to the truth taught by Jesus and the apostles.
Therefore, according to this clear teaching of Paul, unregenerate man is a slave to sin, but regenerate man is a slave to righteousness. And so, your idea that man has a free will to choose either is a false idea. Your idea is based on natural thinking and reasoning, but Paul's teaching is spiritual.
So then, Mat. 7:24-26 is not a general teaching about man's "free will," so you are imposing that on the scripture. It rather is a description of who is wise and who is foolish. Unregenerate man is foolish and builds his house on sand. And regenerate man is wise and builds his house on the rock, because he has received the free gift of God's wisdom from above.
(Cont'd)
(Part 1 of 4)
No, it's not. The term "freewill" is related only to offerings that are not required by law. The term "free will" is related only to volunteerism that is not under coercion or peer pressure. There is "will" in both the OT and NT, but not "free will" in the way that you and your cronies make it out to be. I've already shown profusely that unregenerate man's will is a slave to sin, and according to 1 Cor. 2:14, Paul's statement is that such a person "cannot" understand the gospel, because the gospel is spiritually discerned. Unregenerate man does not have ears to hear it. And all throughout your responses, you fail to acknowledge the distinction between the natural and the spiritual in the way that Paul makes that distinction in 1 Cor. ch. 1 and 2.
I disagree. Paul repeatedly states that unregenerate man is a slave to sin and captive to the devil, as Jesus stated in John 8, and John states in 1 John 5:19.
In Gen. 3:22, God states the condition of "free will" after the fall: "Then the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" in which "knowing" is experiential and autonomous. After the fall, man began deciding good and evil for himself, without regard to what God says, because the Holy Spirit departed from him, and left him to himself. In effect, your idea of "free will" is that man's will is separate from God and is distinct and different than God's will. And this is why your idea of "free will" equates to the fall and is the basis of the total spiritual depravity of man (in regard to spiritual things). So, "free will" as defined as man's will not moved by God, is the essence of the sinful nature.
Therefore, your idea that man hasn't lost free will doesn't even come close to the truth taught by Jesus and the apostles.
I think you lack some knowledge of Christian history based on your biased view, because there were plenty of teachers in the Catholic church who understood and believed in predestination. The reason why Luther was excommunicated was not because of the reformed doctrine he taught, since many priests and bishops agreed with his doctrine. He was excommunicated because of his defiance of the authority of the pope and councils, where they erred.
What is the context of this statement? If he is talking about governing people and judging people who commit crimes and suffer the consequences thereby, then it's a true statement. But if he is talking about whether or not eternal life is given to someone, then he doesn't understand the gospel, nor does he understand the teachings of Jesus, Paul, and John on the matter. Paul (the apostle of grace) is clearest on this issue. Therefore I put the writings of Justin Martyr on a very low level.
The same with all these statements, or at least the way you are using them. They appear to be true statements, but only for the born-again Christian whom God has set free in his spirit to follow Christ instead of his flesh. But the issue has to do with unregenerate man. And the way Paul describes the difference is in Rom. 6:17-18 "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were entrusted, and after being freed from sin, you became slaves to righteousness."
Therefore, according to this clear teaching of Paul, unregenerate man is a slave to sin, but regenerate man is a slave to righteousness. And so, your idea that man has a free will to choose either is a false idea. Your idea is based on natural thinking and reasoning, but Paul's teaching is spiritual.
The command to choose life does not mean that man has a free will to choose it, as the nation Israel repeatedly proved. There was only a minority that chose life, because God "kept for Himself" that remnant, according to Paul in Rom. 9:27 and 11:5.
So are you operating under the old Sinai covenant which the writer of Hebrews said was obsolete (Heb. 8:13)? Again, a command to do right and warning of serious consequences does not a righteous man make, and does not prove that unregenerate man has a free will to choose right. Natural reasoning can make you think so, but the spiritual truth taught in the NT by Paul and John tells us otherwise.
Notice it says "everyone who..." - this is not a teaching on "free will" according to how you define it. By the way, how exactly do you define it?
So then, Mat. 7:24-26 is not a general teaching about man's "free will," so you are imposing that on the scripture. It rather is a description of who is wise and who is foolish. Unregenerate man is foolish and builds his house on sand. And regenerate man is wise and builds his house on the rock, because he has received the free gift of God's wisdom from above.
And I'm sure this is where our paths diverge, because I can say the same thing about your viewpoint.
(Cont'd)
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Wondering:
(Part 2 of 4)
And your idea that believers aren't called for salvation is completely false. God's purpose in Rom. 8:28-20 includes justification and glorification, which clearly refutes your idea.
And foreknowing is not foreseeing. The foreknowing of God is an intimate knowledge of people He elected at a future time. Therefore, foreknowing in this context means foreloving and forechoosing. Doesn't the Biblical term 'knowing' (such as Adam knew Eve) tell you that knowing is much more than mere recalling information? When Jesus said of certain people "I never knew you," did He actually lack knowledge of those people? Did He really not know them? But Jesus is God, and is omniscient, which means He knows everything about everyone, as Heb. 4:13 clearly states. But "I never knew you" means that He chooses to not have intimate fellowship with them. It means He chooses to deal with them justly according to the culpability of their sin, and not mercifully.
But your statement "the Father draws all" can't be correct, since the context of John 6 proves that not all are drawn, since it says "unless." The nature of the conversation assumes that some are drawn and some are not.
(Cont'd)
(Part 2 of 4)
Jesus just performed a sign which they demanded to see, but obviously they didn't see it. This means they were spiritually blind, since they could not believe what their physical eyes could see. So when they asked Him what they could do to do God's works (this is the idea of Providence, which they and the religious leaders were well aware of), Jesus replied that believing in Him is the work of God. If Jesus says that believing in Him is the work of God, then we should understand that believing in Christ was God's work done in us, if indeed we are believers. Paul concurs with this in 1 Cor. 1, and John also concurs with this in John 1:13. Therefore, this verse has everything to do with predestination, the same as John 6:65. Those coming to Christ are predestined to do so. And those who don't come to Him are not predestined so, and are subject to God's justice and lake of fire judgment, since they are culpable for their sins.
Again, this is not a passage of scripture teaching "free will" salvation. If you claim it is, you are imposing on scripture. But rather it is a description of WHO God has chosen and saved. It is an encouragement to believers, not to unbelievers.
I agree that Acts 16:31 is a command and a prescription. I don't agree that it teaches "free will" salvation. The jailer was already interested and already feared God, which means God was already working in his heart to have that disposition. So, when Paul spoke the command to believe in Christ, he was already willing to do so, because he already had the disposition of heart to do so. According to Paul, if the jailer had been unregenerate, he could not have believed the gospel, as Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 2:14-16.
And your idea that believers aren't called for salvation is completely false. God's purpose in Rom. 8:28-20 includes justification and glorification, which clearly refutes your idea.
It's all the same salvation package. Foreknowing, predestinating, calling, justifying, glorifying, becoming conformed to Christ - it's all the same salvation that God does to the elect, and is His purpose for them. Can't you see that those who are saved are the same ones being conformed to Christ's image? To try slicing it up as entirely different things is a fool's errand.
And foreknowing is not foreseeing. The foreknowing of God is an intimate knowledge of people He elected at a future time. Therefore, foreknowing in this context means foreloving and forechoosing. Doesn't the Biblical term 'knowing' (such as Adam knew Eve) tell you that knowing is much more than mere recalling information? When Jesus said of certain people "I never knew you," did He actually lack knowledge of those people? Did He really not know them? But Jesus is God, and is omniscient, which means He knows everything about everyone, as Heb. 4:13 clearly states. But "I never knew you" means that He chooses to not have intimate fellowship with them. It means He chooses to deal with them justly according to the culpability of their sin, and not mercifully.
Again, to separate God's purpose from salvation is a fool's errand. Doesn't Rev. 22 tell you that ultimate salvation is God's purpose for His people? It seems to me that to claim God's purpose is not salvation is completely wrong, and doesn't fit NT teaching. Whoever taught you that idea is a false teacher.
"Draw all men" doesn't mean what you think it means. In that context, Jesus is referring to gentiles, as opposed to Jews only which the Jews believed. And my interpretation is proven by Acts 11:18. It's the same with 1 Tim. 2:4.
But your statement "the Father draws all" can't be correct, since the context of John 6 proves that not all are drawn, since it says "unless." The nature of the conversation assumes that some are drawn and some are not.
No, it says "heard AND learned." It doesn't say what you claim.
No, it's a description of WHO will have eternal life. Those that believe. It's a who statement, not a how. The command to believe will only be obeyed by those to whom it has been given. Acts 11:18, John 3:27, John 6:37, John 17:2
(Cont'd)
Wondering:
(Part 3 of 4)
I also disagree with your assessment of what the Bible teaches about the will of man. In fact, the term "free will" or "freewill" in the Bible refers to a natural ability of man to choose something freely against any coercion, peer pressure, or legal obligation. That's a natural ability.
But unregenerate man is not able to make a right moral decision in the eyes of God, according to Paul in his teaching on total spiritual depravity in Rom. 3:10-18 and elsewhere. In addition to this, John denied that the will of man is involved in being born of God, according to John 1:13.
I do not subscribe to the idea that God saved everyone in general but no one in particular. I think that idea stinks of God not loving anyone in any special way. It makes "God so loved the world" an idea that God loves the concept of a good world, but doesn't love any individual in it enough to save any individual out of his hopeless plight. I see the NT teaching quite the contrary.
What I get from you and your cronies is a hate for Rom. 9-11, such that you have to make up something to impose on it (such as "it's talking exclusively about Israel", or "it's talking about corporate salvation"), because you just can't accept the clear simple statements that are in it.
(Cont'd)
(Part 3 of 4)
If "determination" means "determinism", then you would be wrong in your assessment of Reformed Theology. Predestination of the elect does mean that God determines the elect to believe and be saved (Eph. 1). But it does not mean that God determines the acts of sin that men commit. I know that some people believe that, but I do not see the Bible teaching it. Men are culpable for the sins they commit, and God does not make them do it. Unregenerate mankind is autonomous, which means "self-determining," and that is the essence of the sinful nature, because he acts on the impulses of the flesh and has no regard for God's will.
I disagree with you. Describing who we might be slaves to or what we might choose does not constitute a teaching on free will as you use the term. Your idea of free will is that unregenerate man has the capability to make right choices in the eyes of God, which is contrary to what Paul taught in Rom. 3:10-18 and elsewhere.
I also disagree with your assessment of what the Bible teaches about the will of man. In fact, the term "free will" or "freewill" in the Bible refers to a natural ability of man to choose something freely against any coercion, peer pressure, or legal obligation. That's a natural ability.
But unregenerate man is not able to make a right moral decision in the eyes of God, according to Paul in his teaching on total spiritual depravity in Rom. 3:10-18 and elsewhere. In addition to this, John denied that the will of man is involved in being born of God, according to John 1:13.
What do you think Paul means by "useless" in Rom. 3:12? It says "no one does good, not even one." Your assessment of "good" appears to be some relativist term compared between people. But when Paul teaches what is good in the eyes of God, it is spiritual truth he is talking about. It is the ultimate goodness of God, that only comes from God that he is talking about. It's based on Jesus saying to apparently righteous Jews "if you, being evil..." So if Jesus called them evil who thought they were righteous compared to others, then I think you might not know what you're talking about.
If someone is a slave to sin, they can't get out of it by themselves, even by what seems like a strong will. The term "slave" signifies stuck and can't get out, and also signifies that the will (the power of choice) of man is in bondage.
I don't care what other people believe, I care about what the Bible actually says. I disagree with the corporate salvation idea, because corporations, such as the body of Christ, is made up of individuals. You cannot separate individuals from the body, otherwise you have no body or corporation.
I do not subscribe to the idea that God saved everyone in general but no one in particular. I think that idea stinks of God not loving anyone in any special way. It makes "God so loved the world" an idea that God loves the concept of a good world, but doesn't love any individual in it enough to save any individual out of his hopeless plight. I see the NT teaching quite the contrary.
What I get from you and your cronies is a hate for Rom. 9-11, such that you have to make up something to impose on it (such as "it's talking exclusively about Israel", or "it's talking about corporate salvation"), because you just can't accept the clear simple statements that are in it.
I don't care what this guy likes or doesn't like. I care about what the Bible actually says and teaches. It is likely that what people don't like about Reformed Theology is what they misunderstand about what the NT teaches.
(Cont'd)
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Wondering:
(Part 4 of 4)
God is not obligated to be merciful to anyone. All have sinned, therefore all deserve judgment because the wages of sin is death (it's talking about the 2nd death, which is lake of fire judgment).
If God chooses to have mercy on some, which Rom. 9 clearly states, then He is displaying a glory toward some that is different than the glory He displays in exacting just punishment on the rest of mankind who are culpable for the sins they committed. God is not obligated to have mercy on everyone equally. If He was, then it would not be mercy; it would be justice.
Although God blessed Esau in many ways, he was excluded from grace, as we learn from Heb. 12:16 that he was a godless man - God-less; meaning that God was not with him. Yet God was with Jacob, even though he had been a deceiver. This was God's choice, as clearly stated in Rom. 9:11, before either had done anything.
In the same way, God is not obligated to bless anyone, although He does bless some more than others, and He is not obligated to love anyone, although He does love, and some more than others. "God is love" means that God does love everyone to some extent, but it doesn't mean He loves everyone the same. One could say that God hated Hitler, yet He loved him enough to let him live for a time to give him a chance to repent (for example, which he never did).
But your idea that it teaches that "we're serving an evil God that is just toying with us for his own pleasure" is your misunderstanding and caricature of what it is about. This response reminds me of the one-talent man who described his master as "a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed." And we all know the result of his assessment.
But what if the one true God who reveals Himself in scripture is the one I describe, which is what I say the same one that Paul describes? Are you prepared to spend eternity with this God?
(Part 4 of 4)
I disagree with your assessment about what Calvin envisioned. Reformed Theology envisions God in the greatest way, just as the whole Bible teaches. It makes me wonder if you have even read any of the confessions with an open mind. Have you read and studied the London Baptist Confession of 1689 for example?
And such is your caricature of Calvinism. This time you boldly are showing your ignorance. Reformed Theology teaches that man is culpable for the sin he commits, just as the Bible teaches. But I suppose this doesn't change your opinion at all.
Your ignorance of the concept of mercy is now showing. Mercy has to do with not giving people what they deserve, in regard to just punishment. It's an exception to justice. It is not the equivalence to justice.
God is not obligated to be merciful to anyone. All have sinned, therefore all deserve judgment because the wages of sin is death (it's talking about the 2nd death, which is lake of fire judgment).
If God chooses to have mercy on some, which Rom. 9 clearly states, then He is displaying a glory toward some that is different than the glory He displays in exacting just punishment on the rest of mankind who are culpable for the sins they committed. God is not obligated to have mercy on everyone equally. If He was, then it would not be mercy; it would be justice.
This reasoning leads to universalism, which we know is a false idea. But if you read Rom. 9 carefully, your question will be answered. God has various glories He wants to express to all mankind, which includes both justice and mercy. To Esau He expressed justice, but to Jacob He expressed mercy. Thus, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." This clearly tells us that God does not love everyone the same.
Although God blessed Esau in many ways, he was excluded from grace, as we learn from Heb. 12:16 that he was a godless man - God-less; meaning that God was not with him. Yet God was with Jacob, even though he had been a deceiver. This was God's choice, as clearly stated in Rom. 9:11, before either had done anything.
In the same way, God is not obligated to bless anyone, although He does bless some more than others, and He is not obligated to love anyone, although He does love, and some more than others. "God is love" means that God does love everyone to some extent, but it doesn't mean He loves everyone the same. One could say that God hated Hitler, yet He loved him enough to let him live for a time to give him a chance to repent (for example, which he never did).
There is much more to "all of this" if you're talking about the full gospel and the whole council of God. But God electing some is an integral part of that whole, and after all, it's the subject of this thread, isn't it?
But your idea that it teaches that "we're serving an evil God that is just toying with us for his own pleasure" is your misunderstanding and caricature of what it is about. This response reminds me of the one-talent man who described his master as "a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed." And we all know the result of his assessment.
But what if the one true God who reveals Himself in scripture is the one I describe, which is what I say the same one that Paul describes? Are you prepared to spend eternity with this God?
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Bingo ... and no where in the bible does it speak of 'free will' (except a 'free will' offering ...Lev. 23:38, Deut. 16:10, Lev. 7:16, Deut. 12:6, 17, a couple more; those references being irrelevant to the discussion).
FREE WILL ... one of the main doctrines of a majority of Christians. A doctrine not found in the Bible anywhere. A doctrine people will rarely define.
Butch5
Member
Not found in the Bible? It's all through the Bible and the church until the Reformation. How is a doctrine that came 1500 years after Jesus and the Apostles a Biblical doctrine?
'As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord'.
'I have set before you life and death, choose life'.
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Easy to make the statement with no foundation (scripture proof).
I imagine you won't even define "free will".
Show the verses that:
1) define "free will"
2) demonstrate "free will" ( ... and I don't means "Joe Blow believed in Christ" ..... I want the CAUSE of Joe Blow's belief. Give me a verse that says Joe Blow believed in Christ and God did not cause him to believe or God had nothing to do with Joe's decision)
No explanation of the cause of 'me and my house'. Was it God that caused him to believe? The verse does not say. Any verse that says who the cause is for a person belief will name God as the cause or not state the cause. You use Butchism to determine the cause that fits your theology.
Like, I can say the hammer drove the nail into the wood. You might say that proves a hammer can decide freedly to drive nails into the wood of its own "free will". I would say the hammer was did it because someone was the cause.
No explanation of the cause of choosing "life or death". Was it God that caused him to choose life? The verse does not say. Any verse that says who the cause is for a person choosing will name God as the cause or not state the cause. You use Butchism to determine the cause that fits your theology. You believe in dualism as a doctrine of Butchism; the belief that God did not create all things for you believe your spirit believes by the power of something/someone other than God. You don't believe the following to be true: Hebrews 1:3b upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal]. AMP
Like, I can tell you this day to choose to pour gasoline on yourself and light a match ... and I think it more likely you torch yourself than chose to believe salvifically independent of God. Like, maybe the ample verses saying God chose you all need to be modified to say "God chose you [ because you chose Him which God learned about before the foundation of the earth by inquiring of NOTHING, what NOTHING would decide].
Like, using Butchism one can meet Christ after death and say, "Well, you know it is because of my righteousness that I decided to independently believe (without God's help); that and with your help of dying for my sins, we saved me from damnation. We make a great team. Like, I know I am not supposed to boast, but I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for me. Praise me and thanks for sharing your glory as part of salvation is me, me, me... mostly You, but me too using my FREE WILL."
Butch5
Member
Wow, I'm really surprised. In the past our discussions you have been real. You hadn't lowered yourself to this level of ridiculousness. I expect it from others, but didn't expect it from you. I guess I should have since there isn't anything in Scripture to support Reformation teaching. So, this was really your only option other than simply ignoring my post.
Firstly, why do I need to find to disprove your assumption? There is nothing in Scripture that says God makes people choose Him or that He determines which individuals will or will not choose Him.
I did notice though that you completely ignored my question. It was a sincere question, how is a doctrine Biblical that doesn't show up in church history until 1500 years after Christ? The doctrine you espouse was not only not believed by the early church, they actually argued against those who held it and called it heresy. Again, how is a doctrine Biblical that the Christians, taught by the apostles, considered heresy?
God spoke to Israel and He told them that He set before them life and death and told "THEM" to choose life. He didn't say He was going to choose for them.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:14 KJV)
Here Paul says that the natural man doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God. The Greek word translated receive is in the Greek middle voice which means the subject, the natural man, is both doing and receiving the action of the verb. In other words he's doing it to himself. So, the natural man is refusing the things of the Sprit of God.
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. (Acts 13:46 KJV)
Here Paul took the Gospel to these Jews and they rejected it. Paul says "They" put it from them. Again, they are performing the action. They are rejecting.
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: (Acts 7:51-52 KJV)
Here Stephen says that these always resist the Holy Ghost. Again, he says they are doing the action. He didn't say God was causing them to do the action. I could go on, but I suspect it would be in vain.
Here's one from the early church,
Justin Martyr,
And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
For so we say that there will be the conflagration, but not as the Stoics, according to their doctrine of all things being changed into one another, which seems most degrading. But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins; and that it is by the influence of the wicked demons that earnest men, such as Socrates and the like, suffer persecution and are in bonds, while Sardanapalus, Epicurus, and the like, seem to be blessed in abundance and glory. The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all things take place according to the necessity of fate. But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. And this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
The Stoics, held that everything was fated. Augustine held this view too. When he became a Christian he changed the source from fate to God. Same doctrine different source. The Reformation is Augustine's doctrine. So we see very early this doctrine was being refuted.
I could post, quote, after quote, after quote, of the early Christians talking about man's free will.
"You and your cronies." I sure hope you mean "pals", but it sure does sound derogatory.
The thing is Tdidymas, I consider YOU to be a cronie of mine also. Just because we don't agree on theology doesn't mean I don't believe you're a lover of God and thus a brother in Him.
I agreed that before salvation, man is a slave to sin...Paul does say that to WHOM we PRESENT ourselves, it's to that being that we are a slave.
WE PRESENT OURSELVES. This does certainly sound like free will to me and the rest of Christianity, except for the reformed.
As to 1 Cor 2:14, of course a non-regenerated person cannot understand the bible because it is spiritually discerned.
This DOES NOT state HOW one become a person of God indwelt by the Holy Spirit...it just makes a statement.
You say that unregenerate man does not have ear to HEAR the gospel.
And yet Paul states:
Romans 10:17
Faith comes BY HEARING the word of God...
In the O.T. we are told of several types of sacrifices. I can't list them here, time is limited.
For example, one would be a burnt offering, another would be a guilt offering.
Then we have the FREE WILL offering.
Here free will means exactly what it says....they had a free will to offer what they wanted...not an animal, not 10%, not first-fruits, etc.
And while you read Corinthians, I urge you to read the following chapters.
2 Corinthians 5
Verse 11 "We work hard to persuade others". - Why, if God chooses?
Verse 16 "At one time we thought of Christ only from a human point of view". - This very well explains 1 Cor 2:14
Verse 18 "God has given us the task of reconciling people to Himself". - Ditto with verse 11.
Verse 20 "We are Christ's Ambassadors. God is making His appeal through us". - Ditto with verse 11
2 Corinthians 6
Verse 1 "We beg you not to accept this marvelous gift of God's kindness and then ignore it". - Again, our free will to accept or ignore.
I certainly hope you're not like another member here that has a really difficult time understanding free will.
Free will is simply the ability to choose between different options.
Without coercion by a 2nd party.
But not without outside forces AFFECTING the choice. The outside force could be economic, social pressure, morals, etc.
Everyone takes a lot into consideration when making a choice....however, the final choice is made by the will of the free agent, us, without coercion by another party.
What are you disagreeing with? I agree with you about unregenrate man.
If Ihave to go back to answer your ideas, this will take forever.
Please give a clue....
You say that after the fall God said that we became like "one of us"...like God.
Does God have free will? Then so do we.
After the fall man KNEW, as you stated, not only the good, but also the evil and was able to choose which he would follow.
Do you believe that Cain was made to kill Abel by God??
Our will IS distinct from what God would will for us.
We could choose to obey Him or we could choose to sin.
This is why there's sin in the bible.
This is why we're RESPONSIBLE for sin.
IF God makes us sin...all responsibility is removed from our action.
And, as I've stated, this would not be a JUST God.
God is Love.
God is Mercy.
God is just.
God cannot be any of the above or He would be betraying Himself, as He has made Himself be known to us biblically, and through Jesus, the final
revelation of God.
Justice means to give to a person what he deserves.
If the evil action is not of our own doing....how do we deserve punishment by a just God?
As in all other cases, you have not given me scripture sufficient enough that can prove to me that we have lost our free will,,,,
especially from the New Testament.
1 of 2
tdidymas
2 of 2
Tell me some.
The Early Church Fathers encompasses those that came before 325AD. Knowing history, I'm sure you'll understand why this is a cut-off date.
Gnostics believed in predestination...Gnostics were not accepted by the early church of Christ.
The reason Martin Luther was ex-communicated has nothing to do with our conversation here.
He was ex-communicated in the 1500,s as you know.
15 centuries after Jesus died.
You can put it on a low level, but that doesn't mean it belongs there.
However, you again give no clue as to what you're speaking of...
If you can trust John Calvin,,,how could you not trust Justin Martyr?
Every statement by an ECF that I posted showed that we have free will.
You are kind of stuck on the unregenerate man.
Look at what you wrote regarding Romans 6:17-18 YOU BECAME OBEDIENT FROM THE HEART TO THAT FORM OF TEACHING TO WHICH YOU WERE ENTRUSTED.
They were TAUGHT, the teaching was entrusted..and so came from someone...
and THEN they became slaves to righteousness.
Where in Romans 6:17-18 does it state that God chose who would be saved?
Where does it state that they believed through no will of their own?
2 of 2
Tell me some.
The Early Church Fathers encompasses those that came before 325AD. Knowing history, I'm sure you'll understand why this is a cut-off date.
Gnostics believed in predestination...Gnostics were not accepted by the early church of Christ.
The reason Martin Luther was ex-communicated has nothing to do with our conversation here.
He was ex-communicated in the 1500,s as you know.
15 centuries after Jesus died.
Justin Martyr spoke what the early church believed.
You can put it on a low level, but that doesn't mean it belongs there.
However, you again give no clue as to what you're speaking of...
If you can trust John Calvin,,,how could you not trust Justin Martyr?
Every statement by an ECF that I posted showed that we have free will.
You are kind of stuck on the unregenerate man.
Look at what you wrote regarding Romans 6:17-18 YOU BECAME OBEDIENT FROM THE HEART TO THAT FORM OF TEACHING TO WHICH YOU WERE ENTRUSTED.
They were TAUGHT, the teaching was entrusted..and so came from someone...
and THEN they became slaves to righteousness.
Where in Romans 6:17-18 does it state that God chose who would be saved?
Where does it state that they believed through no will of their own?
must leave for now....
I feel as if I'm speaking to a wall. Every point I make just goes past you like the wind, and it's because you're obsessed with the free will idea. But "free will" as YOU ARE USING IT is defined this way:
Natural man is an autonomous being who has a will that is completely disconnected from God, but man nevertheless is able by his natural reasoning and mental ability to discern the truth about God, Christ, and the gospel, and is therefore able on his own by himself to make a decision to believe the message or not, and if he chooses to believe, he then can make the choice to obey it.
Am I now cutting to the chase?
You're continuing to take scriptures out of the wider context of the whole Bible. It doesn't have to state that in the one sentence of Rom. 6:17-18, because it is taught elsewhere. For example: John 1:13
"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" - do you notice that it says "nor of the will of man"? John is saying that we are born of God, and NOT spiritually born out of man's so-called "free will". And what I'm saying about John's statement is essentially what he said. I know you will object to it, because you're obsessed with the idea of autonomy. But like I said before, the autonomy of man is the essence of the sinful nature, and not the way to salvation.
Butch5
Member
This is a straw man. There is no one born that doesn't get some level of understanding from Christ.
"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world."
John tells us that Christ gives light or understanding to every person that comes into the world. So there is no one who acts apart from some knowledge from God.
You guys want to play with words and define them just such as to exclude Scripture that doesn't fit what you believe. I used to be Reformed, I know how the game is played.
This passage shows beyond doubt that God gives some level understanding to everyone, even those you call unregenerate. Everyone has the ability to accept the Gospel as this passage in John shows. The purpose of Christ giving this light or understanding is so that "ALL", as in every single one, might be saved.
A minority chose life. That minority CHOSE LIFE.
Choice denotes free will.
I agree that Romans 9:27 and 11:5 is speaking about the Jewish people...
That is what chapters 9 to 11 are about...the Jewish people.
I've replied to the unregenerated man and will no longer do so. You do seem to be obsessed with this idea. Which is not wrong....the idea I mean.
As to unregenerate man being able to choose right...
Were you unregenerate before you chose right....
or did God drag you into salvation somehow?
Does God want persons that have to be DRAGGED....which is what DRAW means in some instances but not in others.
Love that is freely given is love.
Love that is not freely given is not love.
Would God, the infinite being, want love from humans that HE programmed?
Would that love be true love?
Done above. Free will is no mystery to understand...but it works as a distraction for those that don't really want to discuss it.
The free gift of God refers to the gift of salvation.
The gift that God prepared for us before time because He knew we would fail and need salvation.
In Matthew 5 to 7 Jesus teaches the Beatitudes. Jesus teaches this because God does not automatically infuse man with this knowledge, as you seem to believe.
In Matthew 5:21 Jesus states exactly WHO will go to heaven.
NOT those who call out LORD, LORD...
but those WHO DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER.
Those who do the will of the Father are those that are saved.
The will of the Father is doing all those things that Jesus taught throughout His ministry on earth.
Matthew 28:19 Jesus gave this command:
19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
cont'd
The wider context of the bible teaches us that God is LOVING, MERCIFUL and JUST.
John Calvin removed all these attributes from God Almighty.
As I've stated, this is why I disagree wholeheartedly with the reformed faith...it changes the nature of God.
John 1:9-13 Your verse:
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Verse 9 The true light came into the world and ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN. Every man receives light, some accept and some deny it.
Verse 12 But those that received Him...TO THEM He gave the right to become children to God. It states that those that received Him....It does NOT state that God chose those that would receive Him.
Verse 13 Not of Blood: One is not saved because He is Jewish.
Not the will of the flesh: One is not saved because he is born physically into a family, but spiritually into God's family.
Not the will of man: One is not saved because he wills it, but because He follows Jesus and His commandments.
But of God: We are saved by the gift of God, the gift of salvation, which God provides for everyone who wishes it. Man has enough light to accept God's gift, IF he wants it. And with the help of the Holy Spirit, man is changed into the "likeness" of Jesus.
The bible is very clear about who is saved and how to become saved.
Nowhere is it stated that God chooses who will be saved.