True Deliverance

[Son of Israel]

You are quite liberal with your usage of scripture... I asked you 3 times if you claimed to be sinless and each time you have inserted scripture. I was trying to clarify your belief... as there are some who do believe in sinless perfection.
It is not in my nature to come against others for what they believe. I have not spoken evil of you... I have stated that you clearly are not interested in having a conversation with me.... I am good with that... NO need to accuse me of speaking evil. That is a false witness. Be blessed.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil...

 

[Son of Israel]

You are quite liberal with your usage of scripture... I asked you 3 times if you claimed to be sinless and each time you have inserted scripture. I was trying to clarify your belief... as there are some who do believe in sinless perfection.
It is not in my nature to come against others for what they believe. I have not spoken evil of you... I have stated that you clearly are not interested in having a conversation with me.... I am good with that... NO need to accuse me of speaking evil. That is a false witness. Be blessed.

(Rom 3:4) let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your words, And might prevail when you come into judgment.

 

[Norman]

The Treeman sees...everything!!!

 

[Adoration]

The Treeman sees...everything!!!

LOL...

 

[for_his_glory]

Son of Israel

Adoration ask you a simple yes or no question and even though it is good to use scripture it at times does not answer a question personally asked of you so please answer yes or no and then explain your answer.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sinless "perfection" means the condition, state, or quality of being free or as free as possible from all flaws or defects. The action or "process" of improving something until it is faultless or as faultless as possible.

1John 3:9-10 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Do we willingly continue in our sins once we are Spiritually born again from above? No, for if we do then there is no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27.

We now have an Advocate (Christ Jesus) that sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us when we do sin at times. 1John 2:1-2. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but yet being housed in this fleshly body that is still mortal and corruptable where the sin nature dwells we will stumble at times. We are only being made perfect until we receive perfection in Christ when our redemption draws near in the coming of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

1Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

The word "holiness" means set apart or purposefully different. It doesn't mean "perfection". God being holy and perfect means He is completely different than the imperfect world we live in and He is perfect, meaning He upholds every aspect of righteousness all the time because He is God. It is that same perfection that is seen in the Father that we strive for everyday of our lives here on earth. We are made righteous by that of God's righteousness as our own is as a filthy rag to God.

While here on earth we do strive to be holy as we draw closer to God and learn of Him, but yet we will never achieve full perfection until this corruptible puts on incorruption, and this mortal puts on immortality. This can only happen when Christ returns and we are changed by the Holy Spirit to be then made perfect as we are caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

God knows we will stumble and fall short at times as we are yet humans, but God is greater than the mistakes we make and is always there to pick us up, dust us off and set our feet straight again when we humble ourselves before Him. All our sins have been forgiven and we have been made clean again in our spirit by the blood of Christ as we are Spiritually born again from above and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30.

That which you struggle with in this world the battle belongs to the Lord and He will always walk with you no matter what you are going through as He will bring you out victorious over the enemy that tries to buffet us.

2 Corinthians 12:9 Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[Adoration]

Sinless "perfection" means the condition, state, or quality of being free or as free as possible from all flaws or defects. The action or "process" of improving something until it is faultless or as faultless as possible.

I appreciate your explanation.... and to be honest... I cringe whenever I hear someone talking about this topic... because it seems to come with so much guilt... shame... striving... and condemning.
I have found that God is most patient... gracious and filled with mercy... Sanctification is a life-long journey.
If I have to focus on being without sin... I lose my focus on CHRIST.... that has been my experience.

This is a topic that seems to go south really quickly... and I wonder how much of it is syntax.

I do not in any way... shape or form... CONDONE sin... but I do condone RESTING in the finished work of Christ.
It takes the onus off of me HAVING to be GOOD... leaving room for me simply being able to be in FELLOWSHIP with Christ as I am... I will NEVER be good enough to approach God... BUT.... because CHRIST paid for my sin... I am invited to FELLOWSHIP with God.

I find the more I focus on HIS love for me... the less I desire to displease Him... For me it's all about relationship.

Not sure if what I said made sense... but I think I am describing the doctrine of GRACE over the doctrine of LEGALISM.

 

[for_his_glory]

I appreciate your explanation.... and to be honest... I cringe whenever I hear someone talking about this topic... because it seems to come with so much guilt... shame... striving... and condemning.
I have found that God is most patient... gracious and filled with mercy... Sanctification is a life-long journey.
If I have to focus on being without sin... I lose my focus on CHRIST.... that has been my experience.

This is a topic that seems to go south really quickly... and I wonder how much of it is syntax.

I do not in any way... shape or form... CONDONE sin... but I do condone RESTING in the finished work of Christ.
It takes the onus off of me HAVING to be GOOD... leaving room for me simply being able to be in FELLOWSHIP with Christ as I am... I will NEVER be good enough to approach God... BUT.... because CHRIST paid for my sin... I am invited to FELLOWSHIP with God.

I find the more I focus on HIS love for me... the less I desire to displease Him... For me it's all about relationship.

Not sure if what I said made sense... but I think I am describing the doctrine of GRACE over the doctrine of LEGALISM.

Amen sister. The Spiritual inner man can not sin, but this outer fleshly body is still corruptible and still mortal that causes us to fall short at times. Deliverance comes by God's grace through Christ Jesus who is our mediator before the Father who is always approachable and will always forgive us when we mess up at times. Why would we need a mediator before the Father if we are perfect.

 

[Hopeful]

The old man is dead and has no bearing on the reborn life.

It is no dichotomy, but it is a remembrance of a former time walked in the flesh.
How do I know?
Because in Rom 7:5 says..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
WERE in the flesh...a remembrance of a former time.
Because Ro 8:2 shows Paul's, and our, deliverance from the law of sin in our members from Rom 7:23.
Because Rom 6:6 shows the end of the body of death of Rom 7:24.

There is nothing to be guilty of if you don't commit sin.
As those with the seed of God within them cannot commit sin, as John made clear in 1 John 3:9.
Sin shows who the devil's child. (1 John 3:10)

It seems Gill and I agree.
The old is dead and has no further power.

Correct.
The what you call "sinful thoughts", are temptations of the devil...and resistible to those in Christ.
Thanks be to God !

Sinless "perfection" means the condition, state, or quality of being free or as free as possible from all flaws or defects. The action or "process" of improving something until it is faultless or as faultless as possible.

1John 3:9-10 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Do we willingly continue in our sins once we are Spiritually born again from above? No, for if we do then there is no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27.

We now have an Advocate (Christ Jesus) that sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us when we do sin at times. 1John 2:1-2. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but yet being housed in this fleshly body that is still mortal and corruptable where the sin nature dwells we will stumble at times. We are only being made perfect until we receive perfection in Christ when our redemption draws near in the coming of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

1Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

The word "holiness" means set apart or purposefully different. It doesn't mean "perfection". God being holy and perfect means He is completely different than the imperfect world we live in and He is perfect, meaning He upholds every aspect of righteousness all the time because He is God. It is that same perfection that is seen in the Father that we strive for everyday of our lives here on earth. We are made righteous by that of God's righteousness as our own is as a filthy rag to God.

While here on earth we do strive to be holy as we draw closer to God and learn of Him, but yet we will never achieve full perfection until this corruptible puts on incorruption, and this mortal puts on immortality. This can only happen when Christ returns and we are changed by the Holy Spirit to be then made perfect as we are caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

God knows we will stumble and fall short at times as we are yet humans, but God is greater than the mistakes we make and is always there to pick us up, dust us off and set our feet straight again when we humble ourselves before Him. All our sins have been forgiven and we have been made clean again in our spirit by the blood of Christ as we are Spiritually born again from above and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30.

That which you struggle with in this world the battle belongs to the Lord and He will always walk with you no matter what you are going through as He will bring you out victorious over the enemy that tries to buffet us.

2 Corinthians 12:9 Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Isn't it good to know that even though our vessel continues to age and deteriorate, our souls/minds can remain pure?

 

[Hopeful]

I appreciate your explanation.... and to be honest... I cringe whenever I hear someone talking about this topic... because it seems to come with so much guilt... shame... striving... and condemning.
I have found that God is most patient... gracious and filled with mercy... Sanctification is a life-long journey.
If I have to focus on being without sin... I lose my focus on CHRIST.... that has been my experience.

This is a topic that seems to go south really quickly... and I wonder how much of it is syntax.

I do not in any way... shape or form... CONDONE sin... but I do condone RESTING in the finished work of Christ.
It takes the onus off of me HAVING to be GOOD... leaving room for me simply being able to be in FELLOWSHIP with Christ as I am... I will NEVER be good enough to approach God... BUT.... because CHRIST paid for my sin... I am invited to FELLOWSHIP with God.

I find the more I focus on HIS love for me... the less I desire to displease Him... For me it's all about relationship.

Not sure if what I said made sense... but I think I am describing the doctrine of GRACE over the doctrine of LEGALISM.

Grace allows, promotes, obedience.
They are inseparable.

 

[Hopeful]

Amen sister. The Spiritual inner man can not sin, but this outer fleshly body is still corruptible and still mortal that causes us to fall short at times. Deliverance comes by God's grace through Christ Jesus who is our mediator before the Father who is always approachable and will always forgive us when we mess up at times. Why would we need a mediator before the Father if we are perfect.

How can your "body" cause you to lose your deliverance?

 

[Norman]

One crucifies the flesh, aka carnal or sinful nature...one expels demons...no, a Christian cannot be possessed, but oppression is another matter altogether.

 

[for_his_glory]

Isn't it good to know that even though our vessel continues to age and deteriorate, our souls/minds can remain pure?

As long as we keep drawing closer to Christ as we work out our own salvation through Him.

 

[Adoration]

As long as we keep drawing closer to Christ as we work out our own salvation through Him.

Absolutely....

 

[for_his_glory]

How can your "body" cause you to lose your deliverance?

I and many others have been through this way to many times with you. Either you believe 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 or you allow man's doctrines teach you.

 

[Hopeful]

I and many others have been through this way to many times with you. Either you believe 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 or you allow man's doctrines teach you.

I do believe 1 Cor 15:50-54.
But the corruption in question is the deterioration of the vessel of the Holy Ghost.
You see the corruption as sin and I see it as aging.

 

[for_his_glory]

I do believe 1 Cor 15:50-54.
But the corruption in question is the deterioration of the vessel of the Holy Ghost.
You see the corruption as sin and I see it as aging.

The vessel of the Holy Spirit indwells within the Spiritual inner man, the spirit/soul, not the vessel that is flesh. The flesh is a corruptible vessel we physically live in where the sin nature dwells, but no child of God will willfully sin, but does not mean we will mess up at times. That is why we have God's grace through Christ Jesus who is our mediator before the Father.

 

[Hopeful]

The vessel of the Holy Spirit indwells within the Spiritual inner man, the spirit/soul, not the vessel that is flesh.

Where does the "inner man" dwell?
In the "outer man".
We can't be holy only on the inside.

The flesh is a corruptible vessel we physically live in where the sin nature dwells,

As have made clear in the past, there is no "sin nature" in a man reborn of God's seed.
As it is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
And..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Nothing was listed as an exception to those rules.

but no child of God will willfully sin, but does not mean we will mess up at times. That is why we have God's grace through Christ Jesus who is our mediator before the Father.

There is a massive chasm between sin and "messing up"
Nobody will go to hell for having their shoelace loosened; or their check book being out of balance.
All sin is done on purpose, (James 1:14-15), and accidents are not done on purpose.

BTW, Jesus had skin and bones.
Would you tell Him His flesh was less than holy, or that He had a sin nature inside His "inner man"?

 

[for_his_glory]

Where does the "inner man" dwell?
In the "outer man".
We can't be holy only on the inside.

As have made clear in the past, there is no "sin nature" in a man reborn of God's seed.
As it is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
And..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Nothing was listed as an exception to those rules.

There is a massive chasm between sin and "messing up"
Nobody will go to hell for having their shoelace loosened; or their check book being out of balance.
All sin is done on purpose, (James 1:14-15), and accidents are not done on purpose.

BTW, Jesus had skin and bones.
Would you tell Him His flesh was less than holy, or that He had a sin nature inside His "inner man"?

Seriously, you do not know where the inner man dwells? I even told you that the inner man is our spirit/soul where the Holy Spirit dwells within us. Romans 7:22-23; 2 Corinthians 4:16; Ephesians 3:16.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

I know I am Spiritually born again from above, indwelled with the Holy Spirit, but yet I do not always walk 24/7 in the Spirit as I do not think any of us can as long as we are housed in this corruptible body.

I do not know how you define "mess up", but I define it as falling short at times. This is why the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins and we have a mediator, Christ Jesus, who sits at the right hand of God making intercession for us when we humble ourselves before him with a heart of repentance. No one is perfect, but each day is a new beginning as we strive for that perfection that is in Christ Jesus as we work on being like Him everyday.

You go right ahead and believe the doctrines of John Wesley, Charles Wesley and John Fletcher who taught sinless perfection in the 18th century in whom also founded the "Holiness movement".

 

[Hopeful]

Seriously, you do not know where the inner man dwells? I even told you that the inner man is our spirit/soul where the Holy Spirit dwells within us. Romans 7:22-23; 2 Corinthians 4:16; Ephesians 3:16.

Exactly, inside the outer man.
The inner man is inside the outer man.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Thanks for the reminder that I walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh.

I know I am Spiritually born again from above, indwelled with the Holy Spirit, but yet I do not always walk 24/7 in the Spirit as I do not think any of us can as long as we are housed in this corruptible body.

Then you defy logic, as we can only be in one or the other.
The seed from which we are (re)born determines which.

I do not know how you define "mess up", but I define it as falling short at times. This is why the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins and we have a mediator, Christ Jesus, who sits at the right hand of God making intercession for us when we humble ourselves before him with a heart of repentance. No one is perfect, but each day is a new beginning as we strive for that perfection that is in Christ Jesus as we work on being like Him everyday.

You define it as sin and I don't.
I call sin...sin.
I call scraping the carport wall as "messing up".
That is not a sin.
We can only bring forth from the seed from which we ourselves are (re)born.

You go right ahead and believe the doctrines of John Wesley, Charles Wesley and John Fletcher who taught sinless perfection in the 18th century in whom also founded the "Holiness movement".

Unfortunately, John Wesley betrayed God by reneging on his earliest POVs later in life.
I'm am not familiar with the other two.
But Paul didn't.
He wrote..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

BTW, why do you strive for something you feel is unobtainable?