Do you believe in predestination ?

[Edward]

I ran across another scripture for you all which stands relevant to this subject of predestination. It speaks of free will of man, but if we're predestined then we have no free will, right?

John 7:17
17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.../NKJV

We must choose to do the will of God and to obey, by an act of our will.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So how's that?

Premise 1: Psalm 139:16 All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Since God is all knowing we can interpret this verse all meaning God ordained (To order or decree by virtue of superior authority) anything and everything about you down to the number of atoms in your belly through out time
Premise 2: Psalm 139:16 says God had this knowledge before you existed; when you were nothing
Premise 3: It is impossible to obtain knowledge from nothing for then it would be something. For nothing to be something is a contradiction (impossible).
Conclusion: You are not able to self-determine (chose what you want to chose independent of God) for that would make God's ordination (Psalm 139:16) impossible.

God wrote the unchangeable, complete script with no knowledge from you. To acquire knowledge is to change and change is impossible for God for then he would be greater or lesser than He was and therefore He would not be eternal or perfect.

 

[Edward]

Premise 1: Psalm 139:16 All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Since God is all knowing we can interpret this verse all meaning God ordained (To order or decree by virtue of superior authority) anything and everything about you down to the number of atoms in your belly through out time
Premise 2: Psalm 139:16 says God had this knowledge before you existed; when you were nothing
Premise 3: It is impossible to obtain knowledge from nothing for then it would be something. For nothing to be something is a contradiction (impossible).
Conclusion: You are not able to self-determine (chose what you want to chose independent of God) for that would make God's ordination (Psalm 139:16) impossible.

God wrote the unchangeable, complete script with no knowledge from you. To acquire knowledge is to change and change is impossible for God for then he would be greater or lesser than He was and therefore He would not be eternal or perfect.

Who said it's an unchangeable script? Yes, he wrote the book...but then He gave to us free will so that we can choose Him of our own free will. Which should bring Him even more glory than if we had no choice.

To fulfill our predestination we must obey Him. That's what the Bible's all about Brother. Lord help me to be an overcomer. Right? Right.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I have always found it to be presumptuous to the point of arrogance almost that our puny understanding of what we call "predestination" is on par and equal to the mind of God in this regard.
For me there are many passages of God's Word that making application our presumptive sin nature infected understanding of predestination would effectively null & void .
For instance could someone who presumes they have this business all wrapped up in tidy little package on par with the mind of Jesus, tell me why Jesus after having proclaimed, refering to his ultimate fate, that it would have been better if Judas had not been born, then holds out a last minute opportunity for Judas to repent of his sin ?

" And Jesus said unto him, FRIEND, wherefore art thou come ? "
( Matthew 26:50 )

" Friend " being a term of endearment that Jesus did not use casually, and was reserved by His own admission to refer to those He was calling to receive Himself ?

For me there is only two possibilities for Jesus using this term of invitation & affection with Judas at this very last moment.

1,) Tenderly and hopefully urging Judas at the very last moment to repent be saved.
2.) Mocking Satan, as He had already proclaimed Judas to be Satan possessed.

 

[Norman]

I recall the instant He created my spirit and I became conscious. I remember while having a NDE, standing on a street in the New Jerusalem, looking into Yeshua's eyes.
Today finds me somewhere between the two of these. Call it what you may, I'm going home!

 

[Edward]

I have always found it to be presumptuous to the point of arrogance almost that our puny understanding of what we call "predestination" is on par and equal to the mind of God in this regard.
For me there are many passages of God's Word that making application our presumptive sin nature infected understanding of predestination would effectively null & void .
For instance could someone who presumes they have this business all wrapped up in tidy little package on par with the mind of Jesus, tell me why Jesus after having proclaimed, refering to his ultimate fate, that it would have been better if Judas had not been born, then holds out a last minute opportunity for Judas to repent of his sin ?

" And Jesus said unto him, FRIEND, wherefore art thou come ? "
( Matthew 26:50 )

" Friend " being a term of endearment that Jesus did not use casually, and was reserved by His own admission to refer to those He was calling to receive Himself ?

For me there is only two possibilities for Jesus using this term of invitation & affection with Judas at this very last moment.

1,) Tenderly and hopefully urging Judas at the very last moment to repent be saved.
2.) Mocking Satan, as He had already proclaimed Judas to be Satan possessed.

And there was no man that could do it so that's the reason that Jesus was needed to come. And He did do it. Always obeying. Jesus said He only does what the Father does or says to. And now He sits at the right hand of God and is the head. Because all have sinned and fallen short, we get to be the body. But all that He has been given will be redeemed and glorified with Him.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Who said it's an unchangeable script? Yes, he wrote the book...but then He gave to us free will so that we can choose Him of our own free will. Which should bring Him even more glory than if we had no choice.

So, God wrote the book but it is changeable. In other words, it is a work of fiction to some extent. This also means God is no all knowing, that he learns from our decisions and the we control Him to some extent as He is obligated to us to respond according to our decision. Interesting theory.

To fulfill our predestination we must obey Him.

So, we predestine ourselves. Somehow God chose us before time began, when we were nothing. So he chose us conditionally. If we have libertarian free will, how does God even know we will exist. For example, someone may or may not decide to kill his son and thus the prodigy of the son will not or will exist as determined by a yet to be determined decision of the father to kill his son. This gives new meaning to an all knowing God.
I can't say I agree brother, but your statements have interesting consequences IMO.

 

[Vince]

One of the foundational errors of Calvinism is reading the words "unconditional" and "unconditionally" into verses.

Before the world began, God wrote about us. NOWHERE does the Bible say that God did this unconditionally. He knew what was going to happen, and He used His foreknowledge to record it correctly. He also used His fore knowledge to plan what He would do for our benefit. But whatever good or bad we have done, God did not write it in a book and then force us, unwillingly, to do it.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

I believe in predestination ACCORDING TO FOREKNOWLEDGE. That is its biblical explanation.

The somewhat hokey but fairly accurate picture is God looks down the tunnel of time and sees who will believe and persist in believing to the end.

Thus Free Will and God's predestination ACCORDING TO FOREKNOWLEDGE are preserved.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

OSAS vx OSNAS

This subject of OSAS is no longer allowed to be argued, debated or even discussed. Since way too many rescources are being used by this one subject we have to cut it off completely. Too many people are losing their composure when discussing this topic. So in the interest of all, any debate of...

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Is this still a policy of this board?

 

[Fastfredy0]

One of the foundational errors of Calvinism is reading the words "unconditional" and "unconditionally" into verses.

One of the foundational errors of non-Calvinist's is believing Calvinist's read the words "unconditional" and "unconditionally" into verses. Your statement has little meaning and no foundation. Supply examples.

Before the world began, God wrote about us. NOWHERE does the Bible say that God did this unconditionally. He knew what was going to happen,

So, when He wrote the book we were nothing. From nothing nothing comes. So what is the cause of His knowledge so He might write a non-fictional book about us?
Aside: I find you application of the words "conditionally" and "unconditionally" confusing. If God does things conditioned upon us, list the conditions so I may know better how to control my God.

But whatever good or bad we have done, God did not write it in a book and then force us, unwillingly, to do it.

Agreed. We do what ever we do willingly. What we don't do is set the conditions that will determine what we will willing do. We don't determine our in-born evil nature (Psalm 51:5) that is the cause of our willingly sinning for instance. I don't control who my parents are or if I will ever hear about Christ or ....

 

[Fastfredy0]

The somewhat hokey but fairly accurate picture is God looks down the tunnel of time and sees who will believe and persist in believing to the end.

How does God look down the corridors of time when time does not yet exist; when there is nothing but God? How does God obtain knowledge for NOTHING?

Hint: Even God does not know what NOTHING will do.
Nothing: No thing; not anything. No part; no portion.

 

[Vince]

"How does God look down the corridors of time when time does not yet exist; when there is nothing but God? How does God obtain knowledge for NOTHING?"

Another foundational error of Calvinism is the weakness and inability of God.

For instances, Calvinists teach that because we are "dead in trespasses and sins" we cannot respond to God. But the Gospels give at least three cases of a dead person responding to Jesus.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

I know Lazarus responded, I know a young girl (daughter of Jairus?) responded - who else responded to Jesus in death?

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

I don't think God would ever be LIMITED by "time not yet existing" to see into it as deeply as He wished.

 

[Fastfredy0]

"How does God look down the corridors of time when time does not yet exist; when there is nothing but God? How does God obtain knowledge for NOTHING?"

I assume you have no answer to my question.
Premise 1: God cannot get knowledge from NOTHING
Premise 2: God knew us (who would be saved) before creation
Conclusion: God was the cause of our salvation in every respect.

For instances, Calvinists teach that because we are "dead in trespasses and sins" we cannot respond to God. But the Gospels give at least three cases of a dead person responding to Jesus.

First off, you are conflating 'spiritual death' with 'physical death'. They are two different things. One is separation from God and the other is separation from the body. So your entire concept is invalid.

Second, not that it matters at this point, there are no instances of a physically dead person physically responding to Jesus. The definition of a physically dead person contradicts such an idea; you cannot be alive and dead at the same time. The only way Lazarus or that little girl (can't think of third one) responded was for Jesus to CAUSE them to be physically alive and thus responsive. A dead person cannot CAUSE himself to respond ... there is only one person ever that has the power to arise from the dead.

 

[Norman]

Getting nothing from nothing is impossible...but isn't it said that all things are possible, if one only believes?
Okay, you guys are making me think too hard...I'm gonna get a headache, and it will be you guys fault! Where do I complain about being given a headache? I hope they don't think I'm a pain! More than they already do! Lol

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I don't think God would ever be LIMITED by "time not yet existing" to see into it as deeply as He wished.

You cannot get information from nothing. God is the first cause of all things including the bringing about of time and what would occur in time. God is the source of His own knowledge. This knowledge must always exist in God because He is immutable.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

Bye.