Do you believe in predestination ?

Seasoned by Grace said:
brightfame52
May I please lovingly add my response?
This is kind of a prickly topic, so I will tread lightly here.

In my studies, I have come to know that God is omniscient - All-knowing throughout all eternity.
He proves it throughout the Old Testament with His prophecies.
God is all-knowing, through all of time, as it says here below.

1 John 3:20, "in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things."

So, if God knows all things, then He already knows who will be true believers at the end, and on the basis of God being all-knowing, we can be predestined, because He knows the outcome of our faith at our end.
God not only calls those who will make it to the end, predestined, but He calls them "the called", "The called out", the "appointed"," Chosen", "foreknew", the "elect", the "Remnant", the "FEW", the "sanctified", and the "consecrated."

When you think in terms of God being all-knowing, throughout all eternity, being omniscient, and He knows who will and who will not endure until the end, it's easy for Him to predestine who He chooses, because He knows the end of each of our stories.
We actually predestine ourselves by our own beliefs, and actions.
God just happens to know all we'll do, to accomplish that.
It seems so simple from God's viewpoint.
Click to expand...
Every particle in creation exists at His command. He is awesome beyond words!
 
The Scriptures clearly teach that every born-again Christian is predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, and is predestined to the adoption of sons.

Predestination to Heaven or to Hell are philosophies invented by men and not found in Scripture.
 
To answer your question, Grace, God is not limited by the future. God is not helplessly bound to what He foreknows.

God chose to save those He knew would come to Christ, but He was not forced to make that choice. He chose to predestine them to the adoption of sons and to to be made like Christ, but He was not forced to make that choice.
 
Vince said:
To answer your question, Grace, God is not limited by the future. God is not helplessly bound to what He foreknows.

God chose to save those He knew would come to Christ, but He was not forced to make that choice. He chose to predestine them to the adoption of sons and to to be made like Christ, but He was not forced to make that choice.
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Vince my brother
Please share some scriptures that convey your response, as it's a bit unclear to me biblically.

Thank you, brother and God bless you on your path to glory.
Seasoned by Grace
 
Grace, there are no Scriptures, at all, on predestination to be saved, to be lost, to Heaven, or to Hell. These philosophical concepts are not found in the Bible.

In order for Calvinist philosophy to work, the words "unconditional" and "unconditionally" must be read into certain verses. Neither of these words, however, appear in Scripture.

For instance, there are four ways to make Ephesians 1:4 teach Calvinism:
1) For he unconditionally chose us in him before the creation of the world
2) For he chose us unconditionally in him before the creation of the world
3) For he chose us in him unconditionally before the creation of the world
4) For he chose us in him before the creation of the world unconditionally

However, a correct reading of the verse (For he chose us in him before the creation of the world...) does not contradict the Biblical teaching that election is according to foreknowledge, and is not unconditional.
 
Vince said:
To answer your question, Grace, God is not limited by the future.
Click to expand...
Agreed, God determines the future.

Vince said:
God is not helplessly bound to what He foreknows.
Click to expand...
This is a contradiction. God knows the future but the future could change ... thus God doesn't necessarily know what He knows? God know all things. He knows the future and he knows the future will not change. When we were NOTHING he knew what we would do. God cannot obtain knowledge from NOTHING, which we once were ... thus to know what we would do in eternity past means God knowledge must come from Himself and what He will do.

Vince said:
God chose to save those He knew would come to Christ, but He was not forced to make that choice.
Click to expand...
God chose to save those He knew would come to him .. agreed (though, the statement does not address why they come)
but He was not forced to make that choice. Agreed from a reformed perspective.
On the other hand, if the concept of man, via his 'free will', determines his salvation is true, then the corollary is God is forced to abide by man's decision and adopt said person. Man, in regards to salvation if Free Will be true, controls God once God sets the rules that now govern His response.

Vince said:
Grace, there are no Scriptures, at all, on predestination to be saved, to be lost, to Heaven, or to Hell. These philosophical concepts are not found in the Bible.
Click to expand...
Predestine is a synonym for chose, appointed, elected, selected, (sometimes 'called') ... probably a few more. Thus the following verses support predestination in regards to salvation.
Psalm 65:4,
  • Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written
    The days that were appointed for me, When as yet there was not one of them [even taking shape].
  • Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known.
  • Matthew 20:1-16 … 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
  • Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed (decided on beforehand; designated) for eternal life believed.
  • Romans 9:18 So then, He has mercy on whom He wills (chooses), and He hardens [the heart of] whom He wills.
  • 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
  • Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace andfavor, which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved [His Son, Jesus Christ].
  • Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will [salvation, while occurring in the temporal order, is a result of a pre-temporal choice of the Father] [Such a statement could not be made in truthfulness if the execution of His purpose depended upon a cooperation with others which was in their power to withhold.}
  • Romans 8:30 And those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified [declared free of the guilt of sin]; and those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity].
I could list many 40ish more
 
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Vince said:
However, a correct reading of the verse (For he chose us in him before the creation of the world...) does not contradict the Biblical teaching that election is according to foreknowledge, and is not unconditional.
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Vince my brother in Christ
As you know, when we make statements as you did in the one above, we use quoted scripture references to validate our claim.
Your statement I quoted above is just your opinion as presented, and has no validation to confirm it biblically.
Please use bible verses with your statements of your beliefs, so I have something tangible to discuss with you. Thanks!

God bless you brother, as we walk the same path, and run the same race to glory.
 
It is quite telling to me in terms of the difference between the mind of God and our own sinful minds where the understanding of predestination is concerned that as we parade ourselves in the robes of predestination, as we understand it, without exception we see on all the pages of this thread, that we only speak of the roses that we are predestined to receive and never mention the thorns which are every bit as much a part of our predestination.

" For I will shew how great things he must suffer for my name's sake "
( Acts 9:16 )
Paul was much closer to the mind of God in his comprehensive understanding of predestination in which he told the total truth of what is to be expected :

"Thrice was I beaten with rods, once i was stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck.
a night and a day I have been in the deep,
In journeyings often, in perils of robbers,in perils of waters, in perils of mine own countrymen,
In perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea,
In perils among false brethren.
In weariness and painfullness, in watchings often, in hunger and in thirst, in fastings often,
In cold and in nakedness.

Let us not just nibble at what the flesh delights in where predestination is concerned .
Let us give the straight story .
 
Consecrated Life said:
Let us not just nibble at what the flesh delights in where predestination is concerned .
Let us give the straight story .
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Vince my dear brother.
I never "NIBBLE on anyone's flesh :sohappy ." I just give my opinion, as everyone else does here.
None of us have the whole truth, as some would have you think, as they speak as if there's is the only truth, as opposed to anyone else's opinion.

I'm happy to say that what I posted is what I live by my brother, and if your opinion is different, pleased be blessed with it.
Many of us have different opinions about a lot of topics, and when we share them, it gives those reading our posts, different options to choose from. I like that.

When I used to preach, I never spoke as the final authority on any subject, but I did encourage the listeners to do more research on their own, especially during a bible study I was leading.
I always allowed people to have their own opinions and even have the last word if they wanted.

Be blessed, my brother.
 
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Seasoned by Grace said:
Vince my dear brother.
I never "NIBBLE on anyone's flesh :sohappy ." I just give my opinion, as everyone else does here.
None of us have the whole truth, as some would have you think, as they speak as if there's is the only truth, as opposed to anyone else's opinion.
Click to expand...
We all have access to the " whole truth" in the Word of God, that is why I quoted the passages of Paul speaking to the aspects of what we are predestined for that are completely void from the pages of this thread.
Never mentioned.
Our proudly displayed badges of predestined preferment not gleaming quite so brightly when we are predestined to receive the thorns with the roses.
But Paul was not bashful in speaking of these undesirable aspects of what we are also predestined for, as did Jesus.
Other Apostle's expressed disapointment in certain points of future predestination that they were to endure.
My only point is not that the truth of scripture is being told, but that all of it is not being told, as pertaining to predestination.

God Bless You As Well, Brother
 
Consecrated Life said:
We all have access to the " whole truth" in the Word of God
Click to expand...

Consecrated Life my dear brother.
The problem with saying we have the "whole truth', is that the "whole truth" has been twisted so badly over the last 2000 years, and there are so many meanings to what that could be, that to the average person seeking God, there is so little left to recognize as the truth.

Look at how many different churches there are with different doctrines of salvation, while some don't have any.

What I am so grateful for is God's teaching on loving one another, that through Godly love for each other we can still disagree, but still be in unity of love with each other, not breaking that bond that is so essential to honoring Gods word about being recognized by the love we have for one another.
Love is the greatest gift to mankind that God has given us besides salvation, and even that is questionable as to how that takes place nowadays.
Above all, you and I should love each other, and count all discussions below that love.

With all love and kindness for my brother,
Seasoned by Grace
 
Seasoned by Grace said:
Consecrated Life my dear brother.
The problem with saying we have the "whole truth', is that the "whole truth" has been twisted so badly over the last 2000 years, and there are so many meanings to what that could be, that to the average person seeking God, there is so little left to recognize as the truth.

With all love and kindness for my brother,
Seasoned by Grace
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Was there something that Paul said in the quote I gave that you feel does not apply to all things being predestined by God ?

"Thrice was I beaten with rods, once I was stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck.
a night and a day I have been in the deep,
In journeyings often, in perils of robbers,in perils of waters, in perils of mine own countrymen,
In perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea,
In perils among false brethren.
In weariness and painfullness, in watchings often, in hunger and in thirst, in fastings often,
In cold and in nakedness."
( 2 Corinthians 11:25-27 )
 
Consecrated Life said:
Was there something that Paul said in the quote I gave that you feel does not apply to all things being predestined by God ?
Click to expand...
Y
Consecrated Life my dear brother. The question you asked kind of changed the subject, as I see it.
You seem to have gone from is man predestined, to all things being predestined.
It's a tough topic, with varying opinions.
What I love about these kind of conversations, is this reminds me to pray and ask God for His wisdom and love and kindness to share with anyone here, and make that the most important thing I can do here, and to remember that whatever knowledge I have is to be shared in love, and that my focus should always come from a Christ-centered love for anyone I speak to here, not me trying personally to be right.
That's how I see this for me. My position on Love

For me, the topic has to take a backseat to kindness and love, as it says in 1st Corinthians
13:1-8, "
1) If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.

Love you brother and be at peace in the Lord
 
Seasoned by Grace said:
Y
Consecrated Life my dear brother. The question you asked kind of changed the subject, as I see it.
You seem to have gone from is man predestined, to all things being predestined.
It's a tough topic, with varying opinions.
Click to expand...
For me, it seems very straight foreword, non-biblical opinions notwithstanding
Taking into consideration that the very moment of our death was established before the foundation of the world, detailed down to the exact numbers of hairs that will remain on our head at the moment of our death, for me God has covered it all .
Did you not take note of Paul's laundry list of things predestined to happen to him ?

"Thrice was I beaten with rods, once I was stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck.
a night and a day I have been in the deep,
In journeyings often, in perils of robbers,in perils of waters, in perils of mine own countrymen,
In perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea,
In perils among false brethren.
In weariness and painfullness, in watchings often, in hunger and in thirst, in fastings often,
In cold and in nakedness."
( 2 Corinthians 11:25-27 )

God Bless You Brother .
 
Consecrated Life said:
For me, it seems very straight foreword, non-biblical opinions notwithstanding
Click to expand...
Consecrated Life my brother.
Yeah. I see it very clearly too from my point of view, as it has been down through the ages. We get to exercise our love for each other, as more important than our final outcome of our thinking and our separate opinions.
I love that.
Exercising love over opinion. the way it should always be.
We come here centered in Christ's love, after we pray before we come here, asking God to provide us the love we need for others before we come here for discussion.
To me, that's just AWESOME.
Who cares about who's right or wrong about predestination.
We get to love each other in the Lord, regardless of what we think.
Do you find that exciting?
I sure do!
 
Predestination is the sovereign, eternal, immutable, unalterable purpose of God almighty, by which he ordained and ordered, according to his own will and good pleasure, all things that come to pass in time.

Predestination is God’s purpose.

Rom 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
 
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