Question About Mary

[WIP]

As I listen to Catholic radio and hear what other Catholics have to say, I am more and more convinced that the Catholic church raises Mary to the level of deity. Am I right? Is it Catholic teaching that Mary is divine? Thanks.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Not technically. Here's teaching from a Catholic: https://www.catholiccompany.com/content/what-the-catholic-church-teaches-about-mary

But you're close, and I've called it "the cult of Mary" before.

 

[Niblo]

As I listen to Catholic radio and hear what other Catholics have to say, I am more and more convinced that the Catholic church raises Mary to the level of deity. Am I right? Is it Catholic teaching that Mary is divine? Thanks.

No. This is not a teaching of the CC. Never has been.

 

[T. E. Smith]

No. This is not a teaching of the CC. Never has been.

They treat her very similarly to a deity and then say "Oh, no, no, she isn't actually a deity." But one can't deny the logical consequences of one's position by simply saying it isn't so. I said "not technically", but that's just their claim.

 

[Mungo]

They treat her very similarly to a deity and then say "Oh, no, no, she isn't actually a deity." But one can't deny the logical consequences of one's position by simply saying it isn't so. I said "not technically", but that's just their claim.

Mary is not just "not technically"a deity. As Niblo said that is not, and never has been, the teaching of the Catholic Church.
The official language of the Catholic Church is Latin, not English. From the earliest times it has maintained a distinction between the honour and reverence due to God alone and the lesser honour that can be given to creatures. The former is know as latria and is usually translated into English as adoration. The latter is dulia and is normally translated into English as veneration. Mary is given a special level of dulia known as hyperdulia (hyper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia").

For example St. Epiphanius comments as follows on the Collyridians, a Gnostic sect which worshipped her:
"The doctrine of this sect is quite ridicuous and, one might say, an old folk's tale. For which scripture ever taught such a thing? Which of the prophets ever bade us worship a man, to say nothing of a woman? For (Mary) is a chosen vessel, but a woman, and in no way different in nature, highly honored though she is in her will and her senses, as are the bodies of the saints." (Epiphanius, Panarion, 79:5:1-2; 374 AD)

And St. Ambrose also states the Church's opposition to adoring the Virgin:
"It can scarcely be doubted that the Holy Spirit too is to be adored when He that, according to the flesh, was born of the Holy Spirit is to be adored. And let no one divert this to the Virgin Mary: Mary was the temple of God, not the God of the temple. And therefore He alone is to be adored, who was working in the temple." (Ambrose, On the Holy Spirit, 3:11:79; 381 AD)

 

[Niblo]

They treat her very similarly to a deity and then say "Oh, no, no, she isn't actually a deity." But one can't deny the logical consequences of one's position by simply saying it isn't so. I said "not technically", but that's just their claim.

Mungo has spoken well.

The CC has never made a deity of Mary. Search as much as you like, you will find no dogma to that effect.

 

[Niblo]

Mary is not just "not technically"a deity. As Niblo said that is not, and never has been, the teaching of the Catholic Church.
The official language of the Catholic Church is Latin, not English. From the earliest times it has maintained a distinction between the honour and reverence due to God alone and the lesser honour that can be given to creatures. The former is know as latria and is usually translated into English as adoration. The latter is dulia and is normally translated into English as veneration. Mary is given a special level of dulia known as hyperdulia (hyper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia").

For example St. Epiphanius comments as follows on the Collyridians, a Gnostic sect which worshipped her:
"The doctrine of this sect is quite ridicuous and, one might say, an old folk's tale. For which scripture ever taught such a thing? Which of the prophets ever bade us worship a man, to say nothing of a woman? For (Mary) is a chosen vessel, but a woman, and in no way different in nature, highly honored though she is in her will and her senses, as are the bodies of the saints." (Epiphanius, Panarion, 79:5:1-2; 374 AD)

And St. Ambrose also states the Church's opposition to adoring the Virgin:
"It can scarcely be doubted that the Holy Spirit too is to be adored when He that, according to the flesh, was born of the Holy Spirit is to be adored. And let no one divert this to the Virgin Mary: Mary was the temple of God, not the God of the temple. And therefore He alone is to be adored, who was working in the temple." (Ambrose, On the Holy Spirit, 3:11:79; 381 AD)

Excellent. The Collyridians did indeed worship Mary as a goddess.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Which of the prophets ever bade us worship a man, to say nothing of a woman?

Gotta love that misogyny, eh? If we're never told to worship a man, well, we certainly should never worship a woman!

 

[stovebolts]

Gotta love that misogyny, eh? If we're never told to worship a man, well, we certainly should never worship a woman!

Why would you say such a thing?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Why would you say such a thing?

That's what Epiphanius meant. I am being sarcastic, it is a bad thing to say.

 

[WIP]

Mungo has spoken well.

The CC has never made a deity of Mary. Search as much as you like, you will find no dogma to that effect.

Giving the benefit of doubt that this is accurate, there does seem to be a lot of misunderstanding within the Catholic church laypeople. At least those that I have been acquainted with or encountered. Maybe the church needs to work on this. I'm not trying to point fingers for there are things in my own denomination that I'm sure laypeople, including myself, don't understand as intended.

I have experienced similar attitudes with regard to canonized saints, medals, and even statues and it creates misunderstanding both within the Catholic church and for those of us on the outside looking in.

 

[stovebolts]

That's what Epiphanius meant. I am being sarcastic, it is a bad thing to say.

Got it. Thanks

 

[Mungo]

Giving the benefit of doubt that this is accurate, there does seem to be a lot of misunderstanding within the Catholic church laypeople. At least those that I have been acquainted with or encountered. Maybe the church needs to work on this. I'm not trying to point fingers for there are things in my own denomination that I'm sure laypeople, including myself, don't understand as intended.

I have experienced similar attitudes with regard to canonized saints, medals, and even statues and it creates misunderstanding both within the Catholic church and for those of us on the outside looking in.

Maybe the misunderstanding are by Protestants and it is they that need educating to understand the role of Mary and the Saints in the life of the Church.

 

[WIP]

Maybe the misunderstanding are by Protestants and it is they that need educating to understand the role of Mary and the Saints in the life of the Church.

I'm sure there are plenty of misunderstandings on both sides. I'm only sharing my personal observations and it has nothing to do with Protestant vs Catholic. To be blunt, for someone like me who is open to hearing and listening to Catholic dogma and standing up against anti-Catholic rhetoric, comments like this can make it very difficult to remain open. Until we (all Christians) can get past the rivalry, animosity, and prideful attitudes there is very little chance that true Christian unity could ever be achieved.

 

[Niblo]

Giving the benefit of doubt that this is accurate, there does seem to be a lot of misunderstanding within the Catholic church laypeople. At least those that I have been acquainted with or encountered. Maybe the church needs to work on this. I'm not trying to point fingers for there are things in my own denomination that I'm sure laypeople, including myself, don't understand as intended.

I have experienced similar attitudes with regard to canonized saints, medals, and even statues and it creates misunderstanding both within the Catholic church and for those of us on the outside looking in.

There is no need for benefit of doubt.

Consider this, from Vatican 2:

‘Redeemed by reason of the merits of her Son and united to Him by a close and indissoluble tie, she (Mary) is endowed with the high office and dignity of being the Mother of the Son of God, by which account she is also the beloved daughter of the Father and the temple of the Holy Spirit. Because of this gift of sublime grace she far surpasses all creatures, both in heaven and on earth. At the same time, however, because she belongs to the offspring of Adam she is one with all those who are to be saved. She is "the mother of the members of Christ . . . having cooperated by charity that faithful might be born in the Church, who are members of that Head." Wherefore she is hailed as a pre-eminent and singular member of the Church, and as its type and excellent exemplar in faith and charity. The Catholic Church, taught by the Holy Spirit, honours her with filial affection and piety as a most beloved mother.

‘This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

‘The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.

‘This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed. But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.

‘Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.’ (Lumen Gentium; Chapter 8; Articles 53, 62 and 67; my emphasis).

And this:

‘It was because Christ had a human Mother that He is known to be truly Man, and it is because of His true Manhood that we are able to apply to Him with full confidence and freedom." (Joseph Hunter Sylvester: ‘Outlines of Dogmatic Theology’; my emphasis).

And this:

‘Although she is mediatrix, Mary remains a mere creature, and “no creature could ever be counted equal with the incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold co-operation which is but sharing in this one source.”’ (Fr. John Hardon: ‘The Catholic Catechism: A Contemporary Catechism of the Teachings of the Catholic Church’; quoting Article 62 of Lumen Gentium; again, my emphasis).

There is a danger – as you say – that certain Catholics will forget that Mary is a ‘mere creature’; and by so doing, create in the minds of those who are not Catholic a completely false notion of what the CC teaches.

It has been said that the Mary’s chief glory lies in her nothingness; in the fact that she was content to be the ‘handmaid of the Lord’; and to ‘ponder in her heart’ the truths of her Son.

All that Mary has – or ever will have – is gifted by her Lord.

Peace.

PS: Chastened by your remarks in Post 14.

 

[T. E. Smith]

the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered

Oh wow, even the Vatican calls it a cult. Yep, I'm definitely sticking with the phrase "cult of Mary" from now on.

 

[Mungo]

I'm sure there are plenty of misunderstandings on both sides. I'm only sharing my personal observations and it has nothing to do with Protestant vs Catholic. To be blunt, for someone like me who is open to hearing and listening to Catholic dogma and standing up against anti-Catholic rhetoric, comments like this can make it very difficult to remain open. Until we (all Christians) can get past the rivalry, animosity, and prideful attitudes there is very little chance that true Christian unity could ever be achieved.

WOW! That's a way over the top response.

Let's go through your post #11
"Giving the benefit of doubt that this is accurate, there does seem to be a lot of misunderstanding within the Catholic church laypeople. At least those that I have been acquainted with or encountered."
You are accusing Catholics, of not understanding Church teaching.
Based on what?
Your perceptions! No evidence given for that accusation.
No suggestion that your perception might be wrong.

"Maybe the church needs to work on this."
Or maybe you need to work on this

"I'm not trying to point fingers"
But that is exactly what you were doing.

"I have experienced similar attitudes with regard to canonized saints, medals, and even statues and it creates misunderstanding both within the Catholic church and for those of us on the outside looking in."
Again, more finger pointing and no suggestion that the problem might lie with your own biased perception.

 

[Mungo]

Oh wow, even the Vatican calls it a cult. Yep, I'm definitely sticking with the phrase "cult of Mary" from now on.

It depends on what is meant by cult.
I suspect that what the Catholic Church means, and what you mean, by cult is very different.
Perhaps you could give us your definition.

 

[Niblo]

Oh wow, even the Vatican calls it a cult. Yep, I'm definitely sticking with the phrase "cult of Mary" from now on.

You are giving the word 'cult' its secular meaning. Hence your alarm ?.

In Catholic theology, the word simply describes a given form of worship. Between Catholics and Protestants, for example, there is said to be a 'disparity of cult', meaning only that they have different methods of worship.

When Vatican Council 2 refers to the 'liturgical cult of the Blessed Virgin', it is referring to Marian devotions, and pious practices, directed to the person of Mary, such as reciting the Rosary, or wearing the Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel - as I used to do when a professed member of the Carmelite Third Order.

 

[Mungo]

You are giving the word 'cult' its secular meaning. Hence your alarm ?.

In Catholic theology, the word simply describes a given form of worship. Between Catholics and Protestants, for example, there is said to be a 'disparity of cult', meaning only that they have different methods of worship.

When Vatican Council 2 refers to the 'liturgical cult of the Blessed Virgin', it is referring to Marian devotions, and pious practices, directed to the person of Mary, such as reciting the Rosary, or wearing the Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel - as I used to do when a professed member of the Carmelite Third Order.

Exactly.
There is also here the issue of the meaning of worship.
The Catholic Church uses worship in the older, wider sense of giving honour.
So from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary definition of worship.
Acknowledgment of another's worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely adoratin (or the recognition of God's infinite perfection), prayer or the asking for divine help, and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God. Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God. (Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.).

In modern times many Protestants have narrowed the meaning of worship to apply to God alone.