What Bible do you have
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Are you a “True Worshipper”?
- Thread starter Cnkw3
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I am asking for someone specific from Mungo. he has argued that oral revelation apart from the Bible is still available today. So I want to know who it is I can go to to receive new revelation in oral form obviously since it isn’t written down.
I believe that a sound gospel preacher today who relies on book chapter and verse is the source of oral truth.
Well, the Bible seems to contradict something believed in all denominations. I do not like to show partiality when correcting. All denominations are guilty of contradicting God to various degrees. That is why I am simply Christian. I was not baptized in the name of Catholicism, Protestantism or Orthodoxy but Christ. I never say I am anything but Christian. The funny thing is, all this association stuff as "identifiers" has been addressed.
1 Corinthians 1:13
Unity in the Church
…12What I mean is this: Individuals among you are saying, “I follow Paul,”-( I follow Catholicism) “I follow Apollos,”- (I follow Protestantism) “I follow Cephas,” ( I follow Orthodoxy) or “I follow Christ.”-( Correct answer. Hence I am Christian.) 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?- ( Was it a man of a denomination who died for your sins?) Were you baptized into the name of Paul? ( were you baptized in the name of a particular denomination?) 14I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,…
1 Corinthians 3
God’s Fellow Workers
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready, 3for you are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and dissension among you, are you not worldly? Are you not walking in the way of man? 4For when one of you says, “I follow Paul,” (I follow Catholicism, I follow whomever) and another, “I follow Apollos,” ( I follow Protestantism, I'm Lutheran, Calvinist, Orthodox etc...) are you not mere men?
5What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? They are servants through whom you believed, as the Lord has assigned to each his role. 6I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8He who plants and he who waters are one in purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
Christ Our Foundation
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(Unfortunately, all the presently known denominations hold some false doctrines. The Catholic Church thinks itself the foundation as does Orthodox and Protestants and whatever various spin-off's of )
12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.
God’s Temple and God’s Wisdom
16Do you not know that you yourselves-(individually speaking here) are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.
18Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become a fool, so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.” 20And again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”
21Therefore, stop boasting in men. All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future. All of them belong to you, 23and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God.
The use of all denominational doctrines that are true is my right to , not as belonging to any particular denomination like is demanded of me by worldly people. Just as too, it is said to me- I have to call something Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant that I teach. I need to edify them and any wrong denominational doctrine. That is my right! All things belong to me as a follower of Christ- as Christian. I do not belong to any denomination, I belong to Christ and He belongs to God.
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Sounds good. I myself like a good preacher especially when they reveal the scriptures and their meaning.
Luke 24:45
45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.
Mungo
Member
I - and the catholic Church - very much care for the Bible.
No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts the Bible (properly interpreted).
Mungo
Member
You say "Because the early church in the first century accepted this letter as the word of God."
You provide no evidence for that statement,
According to Dave Armstrong's analysis - from Protestant sources - that is completely wrong.
It was not accepted as canonical in the first century (nor was James, 1Peter, 2Peter, 1,2,3 John, Jude or Revelation)
Hebrews was not accepted as canonical in the west until the 4th century. It was 1st accepted as canonical in the East by Clement of Alexandria towards the end of the 2nd century.
The Council of Nicea still questioned the canonicity of James, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, and Jude.
Your claim that all the books of the NT were accepted in the 1st century is completely wrong.
Mungo
Member
Haha. “Properly interpreted”. I guess the “church” has to tell you how to think on certain Bible topics? The pope has to tell you his position is Biblical when the Bible clearly teaches it isn’t. So you have to believe what the “church” says over what the Bible says. The “church” is just the people. So what you are really doing is putting man before God Because we know that, in the catholic world, the church trumps what the Bible says.
Where did you get that information? From an uninspired man? That’s what i thought. I guess everything a man has to write on the subject of Christianity is the truth? There has been apostasy and false doctrine in the church since day one. Paul said so and warned against it.
So you think Hebrews is not inspired? What argument would you ( or Dave) make for that? Does it contradict other books? Does it contradict clear Bible doctrine? Set us all straight so I can tear it out of my Bible.
This is your quote. You said truth comes from man. You also said Divine revelation DOES NOT only come from the Bible. You mentioned earlier also that it started with the apostles and then they orally passed it on and didn’t write everything down. That must mean we have men with “divine revelation“ today.
OR
I know now where you are going with this. You believe that some long ago passed on information to the church and the HS said….we don’t need to have that recorded they can just follow the “church”. So now you believe that the “church “ can tell you what is “truth” even though it contradicts clear Bible teaching. And by doing that you and the Catholic Church has just destroyed Christianity because now there is no Biblical standard for everyone to follow because the church can change and add whatever they want on a wim and you cant say anything about it. For example….the Catholic Church long ago changed the mode of baptism from immersion to pouring. This contradicts clear Bible teaching but we can’t question the authority of the ”church”.
What we do know is that the actions of the “church “ would never contradict what God has left us in his word and the Catholic church and its teaching and practice does that at about every doctrine.
Mungo
Member
More lies from you.
I never claimed that Hebrews was not inspired.
I asked How do you know the Letter To The Hebrews is the inspired word of God?
You claimed:
For the same reason I believe the other 26 books of the NT.
1. Because the early church in the first century accepted this letter as the word of God.
I showed you that neither it, not several others, were accepted by the early church in the first century.
Now stop the ad-hominems and try giving a straight answer, backed up by evidence
Mungo
Member
I said that Divine revelation was transmitted it to the apostles.
They in turn transmitted it to others, some in writing and some orally.
Eventually much that was transmitted in writing, either directly by the apostles or later by others, was discerned as inspired by the Holy Spirit and canonised as the NT we have today.
THat which was not eventually canonised was passed down, first orally of course, but then gradually became written down in the writings of the early fathers, the various creeds, in liturgies and ancient prayers and catechetical writings.
Ireneaeus of Lyon gives us an insight into how Tradition was passed on
"Polycarp was instructed not only by the apostles and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna by the apostles in Asia. I saw him in my early youth, for he tarried a long time and when quite old departed this life in a glorious and most noble martyrdom. He always taught those things which he learned from the apostles and which the Church had handed down and which are true. To these things the churches in Asia bear witness, as do also the successors of Polycarp even to the present time" ((Against Heresies 3:3:1 [inter A.D. 180-199]).).
What this all highlights is how fruitless it is to TRY and have a Bible discussion with a catholic since they don’t believe the Bible. Was Ire inspired? No. Can we learn some things from these people? Yes. But I will not take their word over what the Bible says. If they were faithful they would not contradict clear apostolic teaching in the Bible. They quoted from the Bible not the other way around.
If the Catholic Church is correct you should be able to make a Bible argument from the NT. So, I will discuss any passages you want to present that support the Catholic Church other than that this is a waste of time. I believe that the 66 books in my Bible are inspired and I gave you the reasons why. I will be more than happy to take this same argument before God on the judgement day.
jasonc
Member
Uhm my church is reformed .they all use a catechism.we are hardly Catholic.
Don't think that it's just the Orthodox or Catholic that have that .it's useful as it's a series of questions often asked and answered in the Bible .
What is the purpose of man ?
To Glorify God alone
I can't comment on the Catholic versions
Don't think that it's just the Orthodox or Catholic that have that .it's useful as it's a series of questions often asked and answered in the Bible .
What is the purpose of man ?
To Glorify God alone
I can't comment on the Catholic versions
Mungo
Member
More false claims
Of course Catholics believe the Bible- every word of it. We may not believe your personal and fallible interpretation of it.
As I said before no Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts the Bible (properly interpreted).
The Catholic Church makes many arguments from the Bible but it doesn't adhere to the false and unbiblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura.
Your reasons for belief that the books of the Bible are divinely inspired are based on errors.
Is there any “truth” outside of the Bible that we need? No. There are 2 principles Paul taught in 1 cor that I think are important.
First…
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
1 Corinthians 4:17
Paul taught the same thing in every church. He didnt tell one church to do this and another to do something else. What this means is that If we can find what Paul told just one church like Corinth or Ephesus we can know that is for ALL churches. So, for instance..
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
To this church he wanted women to have a submissive role “in the church”. We can now know that this doctrine is for every church out there. So, If you belong to a church where women have a leadership role such as teaching, preaching leading a song service then you can know you are NOT worshipping in spirit and in truth therefore you are not a “true worshipper”.
Second…
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1 Corinthians 4:6
What this tells us is that we should not listen to what ANY man has to say unless what he says can be supported in the written word God has given us. This is why the bereans were considered “noble” people in acts 17. They didnt just take Pauls word for it. They searched the scriptures (OT at the time) to prove that what he was saying was true. They were not rebuked for this they were praised.
For instance…
How is the church to be organized? Popes, cardinals, bishops, fathers, nuns, one man pastor rule (like most Protestant denoms) If so then we should be able to find that in what God has given us in his written word. What we find is none of that but a plurality of Elders/bishops in each congregation. Remember Paul taught the same thing in every church so if he appointed Elders/bishops (plural) in a church Acts 14:23 then we can know that this is the organization for ALL churches throughout time. We never see “fathers” (this is strictly forbidden) cardinals? who is the Pope in the first century. It cant be Peter because he was married. Paul is the one that seems to take the leadership role of all the apostles and we know he wasn’t the “pope”. How is your Church organized. The same as the early church or something different?
Did Paul ever command tithing? No. Free will giving in 1 Cor 16. Then if your church binds tithing then you can know you are not a true worshipper because its not being done in “truth”. Doesn’t matter how much spirit you may have. It takes both…spirit and truth.
First…
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
1 Corinthians 4:17
Paul taught the same thing in every church. He didnt tell one church to do this and another to do something else. What this means is that If we can find what Paul told just one church like Corinth or Ephesus we can know that is for ALL churches. So, for instance..
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
To this church he wanted women to have a submissive role “in the church”. We can now know that this doctrine is for every church out there. So, If you belong to a church where women have a leadership role such as teaching, preaching leading a song service then you can know you are NOT worshipping in spirit and in truth therefore you are not a “true worshipper”.
Second…
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1 Corinthians 4:6
What this tells us is that we should not listen to what ANY man has to say unless what he says can be supported in the written word God has given us. This is why the bereans were considered “noble” people in acts 17. They didnt just take Pauls word for it. They searched the scriptures (OT at the time) to prove that what he was saying was true. They were not rebuked for this they were praised.
For instance…
How is the church to be organized? Popes, cardinals, bishops, fathers, nuns, one man pastor rule (like most Protestant denoms) If so then we should be able to find that in what God has given us in his written word. What we find is none of that but a plurality of Elders/bishops in each congregation. Remember Paul taught the same thing in every church so if he appointed Elders/bishops (plural) in a church Acts 14:23 then we can know that this is the organization for ALL churches throughout time. We never see “fathers” (this is strictly forbidden) cardinals? who is the Pope in the first century. It cant be Peter because he was married. Paul is the one that seems to take the leadership role of all the apostles and we know he wasn’t the “pope”. How is your Church organized. The same as the early church or something different?
Did Paul ever command tithing? No. Free will giving in 1 Cor 16. Then if your church binds tithing then you can know you are not a true worshipper because its not being done in “truth”. Doesn’t matter how much spirit you may have. It takes both…spirit and truth.
Was Jesus Christ a true worshipper of God when He was here in the flesh ? Did He worship God in Spirit and in Truth ?
Of course. We are told that he never sinned so ALL that he did in worship to God must have been according to truth. He said that he came to ”fulfill the law”. You think Jesus did things contrary to truth?
Walpole
Member
It seems the only answer they have is something along the lines of "The book of Hebrews is inspired because it's in the Bible."
A lesson on circular reasoning.
The reality is they cannot arrive at the "Scriptura" without violating the "sola." Hence they cannot answer the question.
Jesus did what He did for the people God Loved and sent Him into the world to live and die for them as their Surety Substitute. So we are clothed in His Righteousness, His Worship of God in Spirit and Truth has been imputed to us, if you are one of His.
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