Purgatory for believers is a corruption of the New Testament's concept of Hades for the unsaved

[Alfred Persson]

Unlike pagan ideas later assimilated into Christendom, eternal punishment in Scripture involves both body and soul in a place called "Gehenna" (aka, "Lake of Fire") (Mt. 5:29-30; 10:28; 18:9; Mk. 9:43-48; Rev. 19:20). The event where a "Legion" of demons were imprisoned in unclean swine flesh and compelled to drown in a lake prefigured Judgment Day when "souls" are imprisoned in abominable resurrection bodies and thrust into the Lake of Fire (Lk. 8:30-33).

YLT Matt. 5:29 'But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
YLT Matt. 5:30 'And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

YLT Matt. 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

YLT Matt. 18:9 'And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.

YLT Mk. 9:43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

YLT Mk. 9:45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

YLT Mk. 9:47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --


Pagans thought Hades was a place where souls are tormented. That's unscriptural.

Catholics became confused about Hades, making what applied ONLY to unbelievers to believers.

They confused Hades as Purgatory. And then they invented ideas about purgatory.

Purgatory is a corruption of what the Bible says about Hades, and its only for those who die unsaved. Not believers.

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Evidence of Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus “God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death.” (Ps. 68:20) "Christ is the door to salvation. His sacrifice is for all—living and dead." What about those who never heard His name? Those...

endtimenews.net

 

[Mungo]

Unlike pagan ideas later assimilated into Christendom, eternal punishment in Scripture involves both body and soul in a place called "Gehenna" (aka, "Lake of Fire") (Mt. 5:29-30; 10:28; 18:9; Mk. 9:43-48; Rev. 19:20). The event where a "Legion" of demons were imprisoned in unclean swine flesh and compelled to drown in a lake prefigured Judgment Day when "souls" are imprisoned in abominable resurrection bodies and thrust into the Lake of Fire (Lk. 8:30-33).

YLT Matt. 5:29 'But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
YLT Matt. 5:30 'And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

YLT Matt. 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

YLT Matt. 18:9 'And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.

YLT Mk. 9:43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

YLT Mk. 9:45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

YLT Mk. 9:47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire


Pagans thought Hades was a place where souls are tormented. That's unscriptural.

Catholics became confused about Hades, making what applied ONLY to unbelievers to believers.

They confused Hades as Purgatory. And then they invented ideas about purgatory.

Purgatory is a corruption of what the Bible says about Hades, and its only for those who die unsaved. Not believers.

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Evidence of Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus “God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death.” (Ps. 68:20) "Christ is the door to salvation. His sacrifice is for all—living and dead." What about those who never heard His name? Those...

endtimenews.net

Purgatory is not a corruption of Hades and your claim has no evidence of any connection between the two.
Nor are the ideas about Purgatory unscriptural.
Nor is Purgatory a second chance to be saved.

There is a thread on Purgatory here - Purgatory

 

[Alfred Persson]

Purgatory is not a corruption of Hades and your claim has no evidence of any connection between the two.
Nor are the ideas about Purgatory unscriptural.
Nor is Purgatory a second chance to be saved.

There is a thread on Purgatory here - Purgatory

There are reams of Catholic apologetic to defend its development of purgatory over the centuries, all of it irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent to what Christians believed about Sheol/Hades in the time of Christ.

The first Christians were Jews, many Scribes and Pharisees from the school of Hillel (cf. The Apostle Paul Acts 22:3) became Christians (Acts 6:1; 15:4).

Jesus did not reject everything they taught:

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)

In the Jewish Talmud, against the School of Shammai, the School of Hillel viewed Hades/Sheol as a place where sinners could repent and be forgiven:

I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, “Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
“The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] “Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] “If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] “If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death.”

[G] Said R. Abin, “What is the Scriptural [foundation for this]? [Ps. 69:29 states]: ‘Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Let them not be inscribed among the righteous.’ ‘Let them be blotted out of the book’—this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. ‘[… of the] living’—this refers to the book of the righteous. ‘Let them not be inscribed among the righteous’—this refers to the book of middling [people].”-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

Compare:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-15 NKJ)

The Jewish Palestinian Christians of Christ's day understood Hades/Sheol is a place where unbelievers could repent and be saved.

That fact is evident in some of the imagery in the Rich Man and Lazarus Parable:

Hades cannot be the place of eternal torment because Hades is emptied on Judgment Day (Rev. 20:13-14) therefore, the Rich Man was only temporarily in Hades and could not be suffering eternal punishment.

Other facts indicate the Rich Man was not irredeemable, that the gifts and calling of God were not revoked in his case (Romans 11:26-32).

1.) Rather than a self-absorbed man who curses both Abraham and God for his plight, the Rich Man shows selfless concern for his family (Luke 16:27).

2.) Abraham affectionately calls the Rich Man "son" (Luke 16:25). It is impossible Abraham would speak affectionately if the Rich Man were an irredeemable enemy of God: "Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate you? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?" (Psalm 139:21).

3.) Abraham and others wanted to comfort the Rich Man, but an impassible chasm prevented them (Luke 16:26). It is impossible the redeemed would rebelliously want to subvert God's punishment of the wicked (Rev. 15:3-4). Therefore, the scene does not depict God's punishment.

4.) When the Rich Man cried "I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox)", the symbolism implies a process commentators miss. The Rich Man is in "sorrow" (cp. Acts 20:38 3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) for his sins, for the first time he is 100% aware how badly he missed the mark of God's perfection. The tormenting flame that brings truth to the surface, symbolizes God's inspection. His "eyes like a flame of fire" are bringing every dark secret and sin to the light, all self-delusion is being purged. Just as it is written: The Lord has washed away the filth… and purged the blood of Jerusalem…by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning" (Isa. 4:4 NKJ).

Our LORD confirmed the Dead will hear the voice of God and all who obey will come forth to the resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

But that Jewish Palestinian understanding of Hades was lost to the church after Emperor Hadrian banished Jews from Israel and their presence in the Church diminished.

Soon the Gentile church became confused about Hades, which can be seen by the different statements of the Fathers.

They began to reject Peter's teaching:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Even when Peter likened the "answer of a good conscience towards God" by the spirits in prison, to the answer the Church gives to the gospel, they rejected the unbelieving dead could be saved:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-4:1 NKJ)

Even when Paul says Christ led captives in His train when He ascended from Hades, the teaching was eventually discarded:

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:8-10 NKJ)

So Hades/Sheol became a place of eternal torment, and the idea of sinners being liberated from slavery to sin and self-delusion so they could freely choose life in Christ---- morphed into Purgatory for believers.

But believers are saved to the uttermost, they don't need purgation. It all happens in a twinkling of an eye:

Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Heb. 7:25 NKJ)

That was confirmed by Paul here when speaking of the resurrection change at Christ's coming:

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (1 Cor. 15:51-55 NKJ)

Physically living saints are no more "pure" than departed saints, probably less so. BUT no purgatory for them??? In a twinkling of an eye they are changed, made holy. By what law of logic will our LOVING God treat His children who are trusting in Him, differently?

The whole concept of Christians going through purgatory, is absurd.

Unrepentant sinners however, to liberate their free will from self-delusion and sin so they can choose life in Christ, that makes perfect sense.

 

[Mungo]

There are reams of Catholic apologetic to defend its development of purgatory over the centuries, all of it irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent to what Christians believed about Sheol/Hades in the time of Christ.

The first Christians were Jews, many Scribes and Pharisees from the school of Hillel (cf. The Apostle Paul Acts 22:3) became Christians (Acts 6:1; 15:4).

Jesus did not reject everything they taught:

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)

In the Jewish Talmud, against the School of Shammai, the School of Hillel viewed Hades/Sheol as a place where sinners could repent and be forgiven:

I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, “Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
“The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] “Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] “If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] “If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death.”

[G] Said R. Abin, “What is the Scriptural [foundation for this]? [Ps. 69:29 states]: ‘Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Let them not be inscribed among the righteous.’ ‘Let them be blotted out of the book’—this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. ‘[… of the] living’—this refers to the book of the righteous. ‘Let them not be inscribed among the righteous’—this refers to the book of middling [people].”-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

Compare:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-15 NKJ)

The Jewish Palestinian Christians of Christ's day understood Hades/Sheol is a place where unbelievers could repent and be saved.

That fact is evident in some of the imagery in the Rich Man and Lazarus Parable:

Hades cannot be the place of eternal torment because Hades is emptied on Judgment Day (Rev. 20:13-14) therefore, the Rich Man was only temporarily in Hades and could not be suffering eternal punishment.

Other facts indicate the Rich Man was not irredeemable, that the gifts and calling of God were not revoked in his case (Romans 11:26-32).

1.) Rather than a self-absorbed man who curses both Abraham and God for his plight, the Rich Man shows selfless concern for his family (Luke 16:27).

2.) Abraham affectionately calls the Rich Man "son" (Luke 16:25). It is impossible Abraham would speak affectionately if the Rich Man were an irredeemable enemy of God: "Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate you? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?" (Psalm 139:21).

3.) Abraham and others wanted to comfort the Rich Man, but an impassible chasm prevented them (Luke 16:26). It is impossible the redeemed would rebelliously want to subvert God's punishment of the wicked (Rev. 15:3-4). Therefore, the scene does not depict God's punishment.

4.) When the Rich Man cried "I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox)", the symbolism implies a process commentators miss. The Rich Man is in "sorrow" (cp. Acts 20:38 3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) for his sins, for the first time he is 100% aware how badly he missed the mark of God's perfection. The tormenting flame that brings truth to the surface, symbolizes God's inspection. His "eyes like a flame of fire" are bringing every dark secret and sin to the light, all self-delusion is being purged. Just as it is written: The Lord has washed away the filth… and purged the blood of Jerusalem…by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning" (Isa. 4:4 NKJ).

Our LORD confirmed the Dead will hear the voice of God and all who obey will come forth to the resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

But that Jewish Palestinian understanding of Hades was lost to the church after Emperor Hadrian banished Jews from Israel and their presence in the Church diminished.

Soon the Gentile church became confused about Hades, which can be seen by the different statements of the Fathers.

They began to reject Peter's teaching:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Even when Peter likened the "answer of a good conscience towards God" by the spirits in prison, to the answer the Church gives to the gospel, they rejected the unbelieving dead could be saved:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-4:1 NKJ)

Even when Paul says Christ led captives in His train when He ascended from Hades, the teaching was eventually discarded:

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:8-10 NKJ)

So Hades/Sheol became a place of eternal torment, and the idea of sinners being liberated from slavery to sin and self-delusion so they could freely choose life in Christ---- morphed into Purgatory for believers.

But believers are saved to the uttermost, they don't need purgation. It all happens in a twinkling of an eye:

Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Heb. 7:25 NKJ)

That was confirmed by Paul here when speaking of the resurrection change at Christ's coming:

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (1 Cor. 15:51-55 NKJ)

Physically living saints are no more "pure" than departed saints, probably less so. BUT no purgatory for them??? In a twinkling of an eye they are changed, made holy. By what law of logic will our LOVING God treat His children who are trusting in Him, differently?

The whole concept of Christians going through purgatory, is absurd.

Unrepentant sinners however, to liberate their free will from self-delusion and sin so they can choose life in Christ, that makes perfect sense.

You can waffle all you want, and provide all the irrelevant scripture you want, but it does not change the fact that you provide no evidence that the Catholic understanding of Purgatory is a corruption of the Jewish concept of Hades.
For example the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus has no bearing on it.

I don't agree with your theories about Hades and Universalism but that is not the issue here.

It seems to me you do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches about Purgatory. Therefore the arguments you provide are irrelevant.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You can waffle all you want, and provide all the irrelevant scripture you want, but it does not change the fact that you provide no evidence that the Catholic understanding of Purgatory is a corruption of the Jewish concept of Hades.
For example the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus has no bearing on it.

I don't agree with your theories about Hades and Universalism but that is not the issue here.

It seems to me you do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches about Purgatory. Therefore the arguments you provide are irrelevant.

Nothing I said is "universalist".

The first century concept of Hades is what was corrupted, not the modern eisegesis of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

Purgatory is impossible for those saved to the "uttermost", who immediately upon death go to "the presence of the LORD":

Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Heb. 7:25 NKJ)

For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. (Phil. 1:23 NKJ)

There was no purgatory for the thief on the cross, yet of all people he would be a prime candidate for such a process:

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
41 "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:40-43 NKJ)

Gentiles became confused about Hades, eventually forsaking the Palestinian Christian view of the apostles, for Catholic exegesis. Horrible, but its a fact of history.

 

[Mungo]

Nothing I said is "universalist".

The first century concept of Hades is what was corrupted, not the modern eisegesis of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

Purgatory is impossible for those saved to the "uttermost", who immediately upon death go to "the presence of the LORD":

Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Heb. 7:25 NKJ)

For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. (Phil. 1:23 NKJ)

There was no purgatory for the thief on the cross, yet of all people he would be a prime candidate for such a process:

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
41 "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:40-43 NKJ)

Gentiles became confused about Hades, eventually forsaking the Palestinian Christian view of the apostles, for Catholic exegesis. Horrible, but its a fact of history.

You used the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. If you think it is irrelevant then why did you use it.

You are still trying to connect Hades to Purgatory, whether first century or not. It has no relevance to Purgatory and you have not provided any evidence to the contrary.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You used the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. If you think it is irrelevant then why did you use it.

You are still trying to connect Hades to Purgatory, whether first century or not. It has no relevance to Purgatory and you have not provided any evidence to the contrary.

Jesus' words about Hades are relevant, modern eisegesis of it not relevant. It does not depict eternal torment, the Rich Man will rise from Hades on Judgment Day.

I connected the 1st century apostolic view of Hades, to a corruption of that idea seen in Catholic purgatory. They clearly are not the same.

Purgatory arose centuries later, long after the Gentile church forgot what Christ and the apostles taught about Hades. But they vaguely recalled there was an element of purification, a cleansing from sin so they transferred that to purgatory.

 

[Mungo]

Jesus' words about Hades are relevant, modern eisegesis of it not relevant. It does not depict eternal torment, the Rich Man will rise from Hades on Judgment Day.

I connected the 1st century apostolic view of Hades, to a corruption of that idea seen in Catholic purgatory. They clearly are not the same.

Purgatory arose centuries later, long after the Gentile church forgot what Christ and the apostles taught about Hades. But they vaguely recalled there was an element of purification, a cleansing from sin so they transferred that to purgatory.

All assertions for which you provide not a shred of evidence.

You are still going on about Hades. I keep telling you; there is no connection between Hades and Purgatory and you have provided no evidence to the contrary.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus' words about Hades are relevant, modern eisegesis of it not relevant. It does not depict eternal torment, the Rich Man will rise from Hades on Judgment Day.

I connected the 1st century apostolic view of Hades, to a corruption of that idea seen in Catholic purgatory. They clearly are not the same.

Purgatory arose centuries later, long after the Gentile church forgot what Christ and the apostles taught about Hades. But they vaguely recalled there was an element of purification, a cleansing from sin so they transferred that to purgatory.

Whatever the CC decided to define as doctrine had nothing to do with forgetting anything.
There are plenty of early writers that wrote down everything that was happening in the early church.

You stated in one of the above posts of yours that a decision could be made in purgatory as to the salvation of one's soul.
This is not correct.
A person in purgatory has already decided that he wants to be with God.
After death is too late to decide anything.

In the above post, instead, you alluded to the fact that purgatory has something to do with purification.
This would be more in line with the concept of what purgatory does....
as in Revelation 21:27 NOTHING UNCLEAN.....will ever come into it.

There is other scripture too that seems to allude to an in-between place.

This is all I can say on the subject, except to say that a denomination may teach what they feel to be correct.
There's a Protestant denomination not far from my town that teaches that it is possible to decide to be saved after death. I'd never even heard of this before.

So I guess I'm saying that once we've made our beliefs known, we cannot force another denomination to agree with us.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Whatever the CC decided to define as doctrine had nothing to do with forgetting anything.
There are plenty of early writers that wrote down everything that was happening in the early church.

You stated in one of the above posts of yours that a decision could be made in purgatory as to the salvation of one's soul.
This is not correct.
A person in purgatory has already decided that he wants to be with God.
After death is too late to decide anything.

In the above post, instead, you alluded to the fact that purgatory has something to do with purification.
This would be more in line with the concept of what purgatory does....
as in Revelation 21:27 NOTHING UNCLEAN.....will ever come into it.

There is other scripture too that seems to allude to an in-between place.

This is all I can say on the subject, except to say that a denomination may teach what they feel to be correct.
There's a Protestant denomination not far from my town that teaches that it is possible to decide to be saved after death. I'd never even heard of this before.

So I guess I'm saying that once we've made our beliefs known, we cannot force another denomination to agree with us.

Sorry for the confusion. I don't believe in purgatory and nothing I said concerns it. I pointed out the School of Hillel, from whence Gamaliel came who tutored the Apostle Paul, had a view of Hades that fits the NT data.

In hades, those who haven't committed eternal sins such as accept the mark of the beast, worship satan, stumble one of Christ's children or blaspheme the Holy Spirit, especially those who never heard the gospel, would hear the gospel preached to them and decide (after God purges all self-delusion and slavery to sin that affects their free will choice), so they can choose to live with God:

As for Hebrews 9:27, Christ said Christians "shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life" (Jn. 5:24 NKJ) [3]. That means the "judgment" (2920 κρίσις krisis) in Hebrews 9:27 is deciding what happens to non-Christians after they die, not Christians who have been saved by grace (Eph. 2:5-10).

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Therefore, the "judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is "the second chance for salvation", because after this judgment Christ will appear: "To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…for salvation." (Heb. 9:28 NKJ).

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

That fits the meaning of the Greek krisis, it denotes a "trial, contest, selection" where an "opinion or decision" is given one way or the other.-Strong's Concordance.

The exclusion of Christians (because they believe in Christ and therefore already passed from death into life John 5:24) proves belief or non-belief in Christ is central to this "judgment". The "Judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is the "second chance trial" to decide if those being judged are among the "many" Christ offered to bear the sins for (Heb. 9:28).

Christ "was offered once" "at the end of the ages" (Heb. 9:26) so all who died without Christ, including the generations who lived and died " since "the foundation of the world", would be eligible for His sacrifice for sin. They were all lost without Christ " but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself…to bear the sins of many" (Heb. 9:26, 28 NKJ).

Read it for yourself, it screams "second chance for non-Christians", they died and were judged and now some of them eagerly wait for Christ's salvation.

24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 NKJ)

Good Christians disagree with me. I count many Catholics as "good Christians." So this doesn't affect anyone's salvation or standing with God.

[Don't be upset I limited this to "many". I do the same for both the Orthodox and Protestants. Clearly, some are tares sown among the wheat].

The reason I revisited my "Reformed Baptist" beliefs about eternal torment is because it contradicts many scriptures.

For a time I ignored how the classic view of hell didn't square with the Bible. I wanted to "fit in" with my fellow Christians.

"How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? (Jn. 5:44 NKJ)

But I have repented. I only want God's truth in my life.

Now I realize God is greater than our thoughts, and what we thought impossible He is able to do. I thank God He goes "the extra mile" to save sinners. Even Hell itself was created to save the vast majority of mankind this fallen realm deceives, and causes to die without Christ.

Its as though God, knowing how incompetent the Church is, made sure His will is carried out even when we fail to preach the gospel to everyone.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry for the confusion. I don't believe in purgatory and nothing I said concerns it. I pointed out the School of Hillel, from whence Gamaliel came who tutored the Apostle Paul, had a view of Hades that fits the NT data.

In hades, those who haven't committed eternal sins such as accept the mark of the beast, worship satan, stumble one of Christ's children or blaspheme the Holy Spirit, especially those who never heard the gospel, would hear the gospel preached to them and decide (after God purges all self-delusion and slavery to sin that affects their free will choice), so they can choose to live with God:

As for Hebrews 9:27, Christ said Christians "shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life" (Jn. 5:24 NKJ) [3]. That means the "judgment" (2920 κρίσις krisis) in Hebrews 9:27 is deciding what happens to non-Christians after they die, not Christians who have been saved by grace (Eph. 2:5-10).


Therefore, the "judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is "the second chance for salvation", because after this judgment Christ will appear: "To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…for salvation." (Heb. 9:28 NKJ).


That fits the meaning of the Greek krisis, it denotes a "trial, contest, selection" where an "opinion or decision" is given one way or the other.-Strong's Concordance.

The exclusion of Christians (because they believe in Christ and therefore already passed from death into life John 5:24) proves belief or non-belief in Christ is central to this "judgment". The "Judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is the "second chance trial" to decide if those being judged are among the "many" Christ offered to bear the sins for (Heb. 9:28).

Christ "was offered once" "at the end of the ages" (Heb. 9:26) so all who died without Christ, including the generations who lived and died " since "the foundation of the world", would be eligible for His sacrifice for sin. They were all lost without Christ " but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself…to bear the sins of many" (Heb. 9:26, 28 NKJ).

Read it for yourself, it screams "second chance for non-Christians", they died and were judged and now some of them eagerly wait for Christ's salvation.



Good Christians disagree with me. I count many Catholics as "good Christians." So this doesn't affect anyone's salvation or standing with God.

[Don't be upset I limited this to "many". I do the same for both the Orthodox and Protestants. Clearly, some are tares sown among the wheat].

The reason I revisited my "Reformed Baptist" beliefs about eternal torment is because it contradicts many scriptures.

For a time I ignored how the classic view of hell didn't square with the Bible. I wanted to "fit in" with my fellow Christians.

"How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? (Jn. 5:44 NKJ)

But I have repented. I only want God's truth in my life.

Now I realize God is greater than our thoughts, and what we thought impossible He is able to do. I thank God He goes "the extra mile" to save sinners. Even Hell itself was created to save the vast majority of mankind this fallen realm deceives, and causes to die without Christ.

Its as though God, knowing how incompetent the Church is, made sure His will is carried out even when we fail to preach the gospel to everyone.

Yes, AP, I must admit that your posts are confusing me a little.
So are you saying that there IS a second chance to miss hell?
That we could decide after death what our eternal destiny is to be?

To be honest, you seem to be changing from one post to another and I can't keep up!
You could plainly state what you believe.
I know a priest that does not believe hell exists.
This is nothing new to Christianity...

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry for the confusion. I don't believe in purgatory and nothing I said concerns it. I pointed out the School of Hillel, from whence Gamaliel came who tutored the Apostle Paul, had a view of Hades that fits the NT data.

In hades, those who haven't committed eternal sins such as accept the mark of the beast, worship satan, stumble one of Christ's children or blaspheme the Holy Spirit, especially those who never heard the gospel, would hear the gospel preached to them and decide (after God purges all self-delusion and slavery to sin that affects their free will choice), so they can choose to live with God:

As for Hebrews 9:27, Christ said Christians "shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life" (Jn. 5:24 NKJ) [3]. That means the "judgment" (2920 κρίσις krisis) in Hebrews 9:27 is deciding what happens to non-Christians after they die, not Christians who have been saved by grace (Eph. 2:5-10).


Therefore, the "judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is "the second chance for salvation", because after this judgment Christ will appear: "To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…for salvation." (Heb. 9:28 NKJ).


That fits the meaning of the Greek krisis, it denotes a "trial, contest, selection" where an "opinion or decision" is given one way or the other.-Strong's Concordance.

The exclusion of Christians (because they believe in Christ and therefore already passed from death into life John 5:24) proves belief or non-belief in Christ is central to this "judgment". The "Judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is the "second chance trial" to decide if those being judged are among the "many" Christ offered to bear the sins for (Heb. 9:28).

Christ "was offered once" "at the end of the ages" (Heb. 9:26) so all who died without Christ, including the generations who lived and died " since "the foundation of the world", would be eligible for His sacrifice for sin. They were all lost without Christ " but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself…to bear the sins of many" (Heb. 9:26, 28 NKJ).

Read it for yourself, it screams "second chance for non-Christians", they died and were judged and now some of them eagerly wait for Christ's salvation.



Good Christians disagree with me. I count many Catholics as "good Christians." So this doesn't affect anyone's salvation or standing with God.

[Don't be upset I limited this to "many". I do the same for both the Orthodox and Protestants. Clearly, some are tares sown among the wheat].

The reason I revisited my "Reformed Baptist" beliefs about eternal torment is because it contradicts many scriptures.

For a time I ignored how the classic view of hell didn't square with the Bible. I wanted to "fit in" with my fellow Christians.

"How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? (Jn. 5:44 NKJ)

But I have repented. I only want God's truth in my life.

Now I realize God is greater than our thoughts, and what we thought impossible He is able to do. I thank God He goes "the extra mile" to save sinners. Even Hell itself was created to save the vast majority of mankind this fallen realm deceives, and causes to die without Christ.

Its as though God, knowing how incompetent the Church is, made sure His will is carried out even when we fail to preach the gospel to everyone.

You used to be reformed?
But what do you believe now?

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry for the confusion. I don't believe in purgatory and nothing I said concerns it. I pointed out the School of Hillel, from whence Gamaliel came who tutored the Apostle Paul, had a view of Hades that fits the NT data.

In hades, those who haven't committed eternal sins such as accept the mark of the beast, worship satan, stumble one of Christ's children or blaspheme the Holy Spirit, especially those who never heard the gospel, would hear the gospel preached to them and decide (after God purges all self-delusion and slavery to sin that affects their free will choice), so they can choose to live with God:

As for Hebrews 9:27, Christ said Christians "shall not come into judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis), but has passed from death into life" (Jn. 5:24 NKJ) [3]. That means the "judgment" (2920 κρίσις krisis) in Hebrews 9:27 is deciding what happens to non-Christians after they die, not Christians who have been saved by grace (Eph. 2:5-10).


Therefore, the "judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is "the second chance for salvation", because after this judgment Christ will appear: "To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…for salvation." (Heb. 9:28 NKJ).


That fits the meaning of the Greek krisis, it denotes a "trial, contest, selection" where an "opinion or decision" is given one way or the other.-Strong's Concordance.

The exclusion of Christians (because they believe in Christ and therefore already passed from death into life John 5:24) proves belief or non-belief in Christ is central to this "judgment". The "Judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 is the "second chance trial" to decide if those being judged are among the "many" Christ offered to bear the sins for (Heb. 9:28).

Christ "was offered once" "at the end of the ages" (Heb. 9:26) so all who died without Christ, including the generations who lived and died " since "the foundation of the world", would be eligible for His sacrifice for sin. They were all lost without Christ " but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself…to bear the sins of many" (Heb. 9:26, 28 NKJ).

Read it for yourself, it screams "second chance for non-Christians", they died and were judged and now some of them eagerly wait for Christ's salvation.



Good Christians disagree with me. I count many Catholics as "good Christians." So this doesn't affect anyone's salvation or standing with God.

[Don't be upset I limited this to "many". I do the same for both the Orthodox and Protestants. Clearly, some are tares sown among the wheat].

The reason I revisited my "Reformed Baptist" beliefs about eternal torment is because it contradicts many scriptures.

For a time I ignored how the classic view of hell didn't square with the Bible. I wanted to "fit in" with my fellow Christians.

"How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? (Jn. 5:44 NKJ)

But I have repented. I only want God's truth in my life.

Now I realize God is greater than our thoughts, and what we thought impossible He is able to do. I thank God He goes "the extra mile" to save sinners. Even Hell itself was created to save the vast majority of mankind this fallen realm deceives, and causes to die without Christ.

Its as though God, knowing how incompetent the Church is, made sure His will is carried out even when we fail to preach the gospel to everyone.

What I know about Hades comes from Luke, I think 15...The Rich Man and Lazarus.
I don't quite see how this fits in with anything.
I also know who Gamaliel is from reading the book of Acts.
It seems to me that Paul was not preaching hades in his letters.

 

[Alfred Persson]

What I know about Hades comes from Luke, I think 15...The Rich Man and Lazarus.
I don't quite see how this fits in with anything.
I also know who Gamaliel is from reading the book of Acts.
It seems to me that Paul was not preaching hades in his letters.

Luke 16. Here's my exegesis:

Its different than a parable. The key difference Commentaries cite is the appearance of the personal name of Lazarus'. Rather than a parable, it seems Christ is prophesying He would send the risen Lazarus to the mocking Pharisees (Luke 16:14) who would not listen to Lazarus (John 12:9-11) just as they don't heed Moses and the prophets and their testimony about Christ (Luke 16:29-31). Because it can't be classified a "parable", the symbolism is usually taken as genuine revelation about the Afterlife.

A "second chance" doesn't require crossing over from hell to heaven. Rather, the repentant spirit is saved in the "Day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor. 5:5) when the Death and Hell are emptied out and those who "done good" upon obediently hearing Christ's voice (1 Peter 4:6) rise to a resurrection of life (John 5:28-29; Rev. 20:13-14).

Hades as a place of eternal torment is "a self-contradiction" [5]. Hades is emptied on Judgment Day (Rev. 20:13-14) therefore, the Rich Man was only temporarily in Hades and could not be suffering eternal punishment.

Other facts indicate the Rich Man was not irredeemable, that the gifts and calling of God were not revoked in his case (Romans 11:26-32).

1.) Rather than a self-absorbed man who curses both Abraham and God for his plight, the Rich Man shows selfless concern for his family (Luke 16:27).

2.) Abraham affectionately calls the Rich Man "son" (Luke 16:25). It is impossible Abraham would speak affectionately if the Rich Man were an irredeemable enemy of God: "Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate you? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?" (Psalm 139:21).

3.) Abraham and others wanted to comfort the Rich Man, but an impassible chasm prevented them (Luke 16:26). It is impossible the redeemed would rebelliously want to subvert God's punishment of the wicked (Rev. 15:3-4). Therefore, the scene does not depict God's punishment.

4.) When the Rich Man cried "I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox)", the symbolism implies a process commentators miss. The Rich Man is in "sorrow" (cp. Acts 20:38 3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) for his sins, for the first time he is 100% aware how badly he missed the mark of God's perfection. The tormenting flame that brings truth to the surface, symbolizes God's inspection. His "eyes like a flame of fire" are bringing every dark secret and sin to the light, all self-delusion is being purged. Just as it is written: The Lord has washed away the filth… and purged the blood of Jerusalem…by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning" (Isa. 4:4 NKJ).

Christ's prophecy to the Pharisees revealed even the children of Abraham(Matthew 3:9-10) like the Rich Man, if they die enemies of the gospel rejecting His authority, they will be chastised in Hades contrary to their belief Abraham would not permit an Israelite enter Hades: “In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant” (Genesis Rabbah xlviii). Paul touches on this subject declaring "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". All Israel will be saved even if they must suffer the torments of hell first (Romans 11:26-33; Compare 1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

Those who have not committed eternal sins will be purged of all that subverts their ability to make the free will confession Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and have life in His Name (John 20:28-31). All addiction to sin and self-delusion is burned away by the torment (931 βάσανος basano) of God's inspection, revealing the truth of the individual, who he really is. Once liberated and fully able to make a free will choice the gospel of Christ is preached, for belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for judgment (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12;1 Peter 2:6-8). Therefore, only after a definite and formal presentment of the Gospel of Christ is made to a soul fully capable of making an informed and free judgment will God judge the conscious and deliberate acceptance or rejection of Christ.

https://endtimenews.net/does-the-bible-teach-a-second-chance/

 

[Mungo]

Luke 16. Here's my exegesis:

Its different than a parable. The key difference Commentaries cite is the appearance of the personal name of Lazarus'. Rather than a parable, it seems Christ is prophesying He would send the risen Lazarus to the mocking Pharisees (Luke 16:14) who would not listen to Lazarus (John 12:9-11) just as they don't heed Moses and the prophets and their testimony about Christ (Luke 16:29-31). Because it can't be classified a "parable", the symbolism is usually taken as genuine revelation about the Afterlife.

A "second chance" doesn't require crossing over from hell to heaven. Rather, the repentant spirit is saved in the "Day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor. 5:5) when the Death and Hell are emptied out and those who "done good" upon obediently hearing Christ's voice (1 Peter 4:6) rise to a resurrection of life (John 5:28-29; Rev. 20:13-14).

Hades as a place of eternal torment is "a self-contradiction" [5]. Hades is emptied on Judgment Day (Rev. 20:13-14) therefore, the Rich Man was only temporarily in Hades and could not be suffering eternal punishment.

Other facts indicate the Rich Man was not irredeemable, that the gifts and calling of God were not revoked in his case (Romans 11:26-32).

1.) Rather than a self-absorbed man who curses both Abraham and God for his plight, the Rich Man shows selfless concern for his family (Luke 16:27).

2.) Abraham affectionately calls the Rich Man "son" (Luke 16:25). It is impossible Abraham would speak affectionately if the Rich Man were an irredeemable enemy of God: "Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate you? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?" (Psalm 139:21).

3.) Abraham and others wanted to comfort the Rich Man, but an impassible chasm prevented them (Luke 16:26). It is impossible the redeemed would rebelliously want to subvert God's punishment of the wicked (Rev. 15:3-4). Therefore, the scene does not depict God's punishment.

4.) When the Rich Man cried "I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox)", the symbolism implies a process commentators miss. The Rich Man is in "sorrow" (cp. Acts 20:38 3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) for his sins, for the first time he is 100% aware how badly he missed the mark of God's perfection. The tormenting flame that brings truth to the surface, symbolizes God's inspection. His "eyes like a flame of fire" are bringing every dark secret and sin to the light, all self-delusion is being purged. Just as it is written: The Lord has washed away the filth… and purged the blood of Jerusalem…by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning" (Isa. 4:4 NKJ).

Christ's prophecy to the Pharisees revealed even the children of Abraham(Matthew 3:9-10) like the Rich Man, if they die enemies of the gospel rejecting His authority, they will be chastised in Hades contrary to their belief Abraham would not permit an Israelite enter Hades: “In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant” (Genesis Rabbah xlviii). Paul touches on this subject declaring "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". All Israel will be saved even if they must suffer the torments of hell first (Romans 11:26-33; Compare 1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

Those who have not committed eternal sins will be purged of all that subverts their ability to make the free will confession Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and have life in His Name (John 20:28-31). All addiction to sin and self-delusion is burned away by the torment (931 βάσανος basano) of God's inspection, revealing the truth of the individual, who he really is. Once liberated and fully able to make a free will choice the gospel of Christ is preached, for belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for judgment (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12;1 Peter 2:6-8). Therefore, only after a definite and formal presentment of the Gospel of Christ is made to a soul fully capable of making an informed and free judgment will God judge the conscious and deliberate acceptance or rejection of Christ.

https://endtimenews.net/does-the-bible-teach-a-second-chance/

All this is nothing to do with Purgatory.

 

[Alfred Persson]

All this is nothing to do with Purgatory.

So you claim, but like me you have no hard data to support your conclusion. I think its probable there is some connection.

Clement of Alexandria (KLEM-әnt) c. 150–215. Learned Christian teacher at Alexandria, Egypt, who was in charge of the catechetical school there. Origen was one of his pupils. In his largest extant work, Miscellanies, Clement attempted unsuccessfuly to wrest the term “gnostic” (one who knows) away from the heretics and give it a Christian meaning. To avoid confusion, I have rendered his Christian “gnostic” as “spiritual man” herein. A few of the quotations herein from Clement have been translated from the Latin passages appearing in the Ante-Nicene Fathers, Bercot, D. W., ed. (1998). In A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (p. xvi). Hendrickson Publishers.

Clement argues God’s mercy to the dead parallels what is shown the living.

CHAP. VI.—THE GOSPEL WAS PREACHED TO JEWS AND GENTILES IN HADES.2
...
Wherefore the Lord preached the Gospel to those in Hades. Accordingly the Scripture says, “Hades says to Destruction. We have not seen His form, but we have heard His voice.”5 It is not plainly the place, which, the words above say, heard the voice, but those who have been put in Hades, and have abandoned themselves to destruction, as persons who have thrown themselves voluntarily from a ship into the sea. They, then, are those that hear the divine power and voice. For who in his senses can suppose the souls of the righteous and those of sinners in the same condemnation, charging Providence with injustice?

...
And, as I think, the Saviour also exerts His might because it is His work to save; which accordingly He also did by drawing to salvation those who became willing, by the preaching [of the Gospel], to believe on Him, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was either to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there; since God’s punishments are saving and disciplinary, leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance than the death of a sinner;1 and especially since souls, although darkened by passions, when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly, because of their being no longer obstructed by the paltry flesh.

...

So I think it is demonstrated that the God being good, and the Lord powerful, they save with a righteousness and equality which extend to all that turn to Him, whether here or elsewhere. For it is not here alone that the active power of God is beforehand, but it is everywhere and is always at work. Accordingly, in the Preaching of Peter, the Lord says to the disciples after the resurrection, “I have chosen you twelve disciples, judging you worthy of me,” whom the Lord wished to be apostles, having judged them faithful, sending them into the world to the men on the earth, that they may know that there is one God, showing clearly what would take place by the faith of Christ; that they who heard and believed should be saved; and that those who believed not, after having heard, should bear witness, not having the excuse to allege, We have not heard.

What then? Did not the same dispensation obtain in Hades, so that even there, all the souls, on hearing the proclamation, might either exhibit repentance, or confess that their punishment was just, because they believed not? And it were the exercise of no ordinary arbitrariness, for those who had departed before the advent of the Lord (not having the Gospel preached to them, and having afforded no ground from themselves, in consequence of believing or not) to obtain either salvation or punishment. For it is not right that these should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after the advent should have the advantage of the divine righteousness. But to all rational souls it was said from above, “Whatever one of you has done in ignorance, without clearly knowing God, if, on becoming conscious, he repent, all his sins will be forgiven him.”10 “For, behold,” it is said, “I have set before your face death and life, that ye may choose life.”11 God says that He set, not that He made both, in order to the comparison of choice. And in another Scripture He says, “If ye hear Me, and be willing, ye shall eat the good of the land. But if ye hear Me not, and are not willing, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken these things.”12

...

If, then, He preached the Gospel to those in the flesh that they might not be condemned unjustly, how is it conceivable that He did not for the same cause preach the Gospel to those who had departed this life before His advent? “For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness: His countenance beholdeth uprightness.”6 “But he that loveth wickedness hateth his own soul.”7

If, then, in the deluge all sinful flesh perished, punishment having been inflicted on them for correction, we must first believe that the will of God, which is disciplinary and beneficent,8 saves those who turn to Him. Then, too, the more subtle substance, the soul, could never receive any injury from the grosser element of water, its subtle and simple nature rendering it impalpable, called as it is incorporeal. But whatever is gross, made so in consequence of sin, this is cast away along with the carnal spirit which lusts against the soul.9

#4
Hippolytus (hip-ÄL-әt-әs) c. 170–236. A leading presbyter in the church in Rome near the beginning of the third century. He attacked the theology and discipline of two Roman bishops, Zephyrinus and Callistus, and apparently led a schism in the Roman church for awhile. His principal work was the Refutation of All Heresies. Among other works, he also wrote commentaries on Daniel and the Song of Songs. He died as a martyr.
Bercot, D. W., ed. (1998). In A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (p. xvii). Hendrickson Publishers.

Omnem potestatem ostendit, quæ a Patre data Filio est35, qui cœlestium, terrestrium et infernorum rex36, omniumque judex constitutus est: cœlestium quidem, quod Verbum Patris ante sæcula exstiterit; terrestrium vero, quod homo inter homines natus est, ut a se ipse Adamum reformaret; infernorum autem, quod inter mortuos reputatus, sanctorum animabus prædicans37, morte victor mortis exstitit.
Migne, J. P. (1857). Patrologia Graeca: Latin Text: Vol. X (p. 747). J. P. Migne

Logos10 English Translation:
He shows all the power which is given by the Father to the Son, who is the king of the heavens, the earth, and the hells, and is appointed the judge of all: indeed, of the heavens, because the Word of the Father existed before the ages; but earthly, that man was born among men, that he himself might reform Adam; and of the hells, because he was reckoned among the dead, preaching to the souls of the saints, and by death the conqueror of death existed.-

Hippolytus, THE DEMONSTRATION OF CHRIST AND THE ANTICHRIST, 37.

As the Palestinian Jewish influence vanished in the Church the idea God Himself would evangelize all the dead (excepting those who commit eternal sins), morphed into something reserved only for Christians in purgatory to cleanse them of all unrighteousness.

The conclusion Catholic Purgatory is a corruption of Apostolic Doctrine is obvious.

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[Mungo]

So you claim, but like me you have no hard data to support your conclusion. I think its probable there is some connection.

Clement of Alexandria (KLEM-әnt) c. 150–215. Learned Christian teacher at Alexandria, Egypt, who was in charge of the catechetical school there. Origen was one of his pupils. In his largest extant work, Miscellanies, Clement attempted unsuccessfuly to wrest the term “gnostic” (one who knows) away from the heretics and give it a Christian meaning. To avoid confusion, I have rendered his Christian “gnostic” as “spiritual man” herein. A few of the quotations herein from Clement have been translated from the Latin passages appearing in the Ante-Nicene Fathers, Bercot, D. W., ed. (1998). In A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (p. xvi). Hendrickson Publishers.

Clement argues God’s mercy to the dead parallels what is shown the living.

CHAP. VI.—THE GOSPEL WAS PREACHED TO JEWS AND GENTILES IN HADES.2
...
Wherefore the Lord preached the Gospel to those in Hades. Accordingly the Scripture says, “Hades says to Destruction. We have not seen His form, but we have heard His voice.”5 It is not plainly the place, which, the words above say, heard the voice, but those who have been put in Hades, and have abandoned themselves to destruction, as persons who have thrown themselves voluntarily from a ship into the sea. They, then, are those that hear the divine power and voice. For who in his senses can suppose the souls of the righteous and those of sinners in the same condemnation, charging Providence with injustice?

...
And, as I think, the Saviour also exerts His might because it is His work to save; which accordingly He also did by drawing to salvation those who became willing, by the preaching [of the Gospel], to believe on Him, wherever they were. If, then, the Lord descended to Hades for no other end but to preach the Gospel, as He did descend; it was either to preach the Gospel to all or to the Hebrews only. If, accordingly, to all, then all who believe shall be saved, although they may be of the Gentiles, on making their profession there; since God’s punishments are saving and disciplinary, leading to conversion, and choosing rather the repentance than the death of a sinner;1 and especially since souls, although darkened by passions, when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly, because of their being no longer obstructed by the paltry flesh.

...

So I think it is demonstrated that the God being good, and the Lord powerful, they save with a righteousness and equality which extend to all that turn to Him, whether here or elsewhere. For it is not here alone that the active power of God is beforehand, but it is everywhere and is always at work. Accordingly, in the Preaching of Peter, the Lord says to the disciples after the resurrection, “I have chosen you twelve disciples, judging you worthy of me,” whom the Lord wished to be apostles, having judged them faithful, sending them into the world to the men on the earth, that they may know that there is one God, showing clearly what would take place by the faith of Christ; that they who heard and believed should be saved; and that those who believed not, after having heard, should bear witness, not having the excuse to allege, We have not heard.

What then? Did not the same dispensation obtain in Hades, so that even there, all the souls, on hearing the proclamation, might either exhibit repentance, or confess that their punishment was just, because they believed not? And it were the exercise of no ordinary arbitrariness, for those who had departed before the advent of the Lord (not having the Gospel preached to them, and having afforded no ground from themselves, in consequence of believing or not) to obtain either salvation or punishment. For it is not right that these should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after the advent should have the advantage of the divine righteousness. But to all rational souls it was said from above, “Whatever one of you has done in ignorance, without clearly knowing God, if, on becoming conscious, he repent, all his sins will be forgiven him.”10 “For, behold,” it is said, “I have set before your face death and life, that ye may choose life.”11 God says that He set, not that He made both, in order to the comparison of choice. And in another Scripture He says, “If ye hear Me, and be willing, ye shall eat the good of the land. But if ye hear Me not, and are not willing, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken these things.”12

...

If, then, He preached the Gospel to those in the flesh that they might not be condemned unjustly, how is it conceivable that He did not for the same cause preach the Gospel to those who had departed this life before His advent? “For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness: His countenance beholdeth uprightness.”6 “But he that loveth wickedness hateth his own soul.”7

If, then, in the deluge all sinful flesh perished, punishment having been inflicted on them for correction, we must first believe that the will of God, which is disciplinary and beneficent,8 saves those who turn to Him. Then, too, the more subtle substance, the soul, could never receive any injury from the grosser element of water, its subtle and simple nature rendering it impalpable, called as it is incorporeal. But whatever is gross, made so in consequence of sin, this is cast away along with the carnal spirit which lusts against the soul.9

#4
Hippolytus (hip-ÄL-әt-әs) c. 170–236. A leading presbyter in the church in Rome near the beginning of the third century. He attacked the theology and discipline of two Roman bishops, Zephyrinus and Callistus, and apparently led a schism in the Roman church for awhile. His principal work was the Refutation of All Heresies. Among other works, he also wrote commentaries on Daniel and the Song of Songs. He died as a martyr.
Bercot, D. W., ed. (1998). In A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (p. xvii). Hendrickson Publishers.

Omnem potestatem ostendit, quæ a Patre data Filio est35, qui cœlestium, terrestrium et infernorum rex36, omniumque judex constitutus est: cœlestium quidem, quod Verbum Patris ante sæcula exstiterit; terrestrium vero, quod homo inter homines natus est, ut a se ipse Adamum reformaret; infernorum autem, quod inter mortuos reputatus, sanctorum animabus prædicans37, morte victor mortis exstitit.
Migne, J. P. (1857). Patrologia Graeca: Latin Text: Vol. X (p. 747). J. P. Migne

Logos10 English Translation:
He shows all the power which is given by the Father to the Son, who is the king of the heavens, the earth, and the hells, and is appointed the judge of all: indeed, of the heavens, because the Word of the Father existed before the ages; but earthly, that man was born among men, that he himself might reform Adam; and of the hells, because he was reckoned among the dead, preaching to the souls of the saints, and by death the conqueror of death existed.-

Hippolytus, THE DEMONSTRATION OF CHRIST AND THE ANTICHRIST, 37.

As the Palestinian Jewish influence vanished in the Church the idea God Himself would evangelize all the dead (excepting those who commit eternal sins), morphed into something reserved only for Christians in purgatory to cleanse them of all unrighteousness.

The conclusion Catholic Purgatory is a corruption of Apostolic Doctrine is obvious.

Edit

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Unlock the Scriptures Discover insights on the prophesied events and prepare for the future with End Time News. Explore Now Site Under Construction Ignore Starter Template Testimonies etc. Read Blog posts only. Guidance Receive expert analysis and interpretations on prophetic scriptures for...

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This is ridiculous.

You say "The conclusion Catholic Purgatory is a corruption of Apostolic Doctrine is obvious." but none of the texts you quote mention Purgatory.

You mention Jesus preaching to the souls in Hades but that has NOTHING to do with Purgatory.
God evangelising the dead has NOTHING to do with Purgatory.
What do you not understand about that?

 

[Mungo]

So you claim, but like me you have no hard data to support your conclusion. I think its probable there is some connection.

I said "All this is nothing to do with Purgatory." - referring to your post #15

The "hard data" is your post which has nothing to do with Purgatory.
There is no connection and you cannot show there is.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I said "All this is nothing to do with Purgatory." - referring to your post #15

The "hard data" is your post which has nothing to do with Purgatory.
There is no connection and you cannot show there is.

Both deal with the dead and purging of sin. Apart from Purgatory reserved for believers and Hades (apostolic view) for unbelievers, that's a lot of commonality.

The view of hades as a creation of God's love that purifies the vast majority of mankind (removing the dross defiling God's image in man) making them fit for His kingdom seems similar to what Catholics hope purgatory does for believers.

As Hades came first, purgatory would be a corruption of it and not vice versa.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is ridiculous.

You say "The conclusion Catholic Purgatory is a corruption of Apostolic Doctrine is obvious." but none of the texts you quote mention Purgatory.

You mention Jesus preaching to the souls in Hades but that has NOTHING to do with Purgatory.
God evangelising the dead has NOTHING to do with Purgatory.
What do you not understand about that?

I didn't say Hades (apostolic view 1st century, seen in the NT) and Purgatory are the same.

That is why I reject your objections, they aren't pertinent to my argument.

Somewhere in the past, as Palestinian Jews vanished from the church, who knew what Christ and His apostles believed about Hades, Gentiles became confused. Couldn't see the redemptive elements of Hades. Clement of Alexandria (150 AD). perhaps was one of the last to be aware of some elements of it.

I argue the similarly of Purgatory and Hades proves a common origin.

I can't prove it, but then again Catholics cannot disprove it.

But it seems a reasonable, and likely hypothesis.

On the Apologetics Forum I posted "Hell according to Jesus and His apostles. You are invited to criticize every aspect of it there.

Hell according to Jesus and His apostles

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 "And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "Then he cried and said, `Father...

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