Purgatory for believers is a corruption of the New Testament's concept of Hades for the unsaved

[Alfred Persson]

Yes, AP, I must admit that your posts are confusing me a little.
So are you saying that there IS a second chance to miss hell?
That we could decide after death what our eternal destiny is to be?

To be honest, you seem to be changing from one post to another and I can't keep up!
You could plainly state what you believe.
I know a priest that does not believe hell exists.
This is nothing new to Christianity...

Hell exists. It is a place of Torment for the wicked.

But God also makes it work for the good to all who love Him:

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Rom. 8:28 NKJ)

Since Adam and Eve perhaps billions of people died never learning the Truth about God and His love for us, so in Hades the Gospel is also preached to the Dead, lest anyone perish without having a chance to be redeemed from death:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

No one (except Jesus and those He lets out) escape from Hell, once there all must wait for Judgment Day and the Resurrection from the dead:


28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)


11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan. 12:2 NKJ)

But the unsaved dead (all from Adam and Eve onward who didn't commit eternal sins) will be liberated from sin and self-delusion, and once their free will and intellectual capacity is restored, they are presented with the Gospel.

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

"Live according to God in the spirit" could be rendered as in the Douay Rheims "may live according to God, in the Spirit"


For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.-The Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.

That implies torment ends when living in God the Holy Spirit, while in Hades.

God is there for us, even in Hades:

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. (Ps. 139:7-8 NKJ)

In the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus Christ revealed the Rich man was in Torment, but He carefully chose words the indicate the "torment" was causes by a process that uncovered truth, symbolized by fire:

When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, (Isa. 4:4 NKJ)
.
The "fire" consumes the "dross", leaving the gold of the individual intact. The Rich man was in sorrow for his sins.

But Christ's purpose at the time wasn't to discuss hell. The parable is actually a warning to the Pharisees they would end up in Hades in Torments, if they didn't accept His authority.

And He alluded to Lazarus risen from the dead whom the Pharisees would plot to kill, rather than pay him heed.

Is The Rich Man and Lazarus Story About Hell Prophecy Parable or both | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 13:34-35

endtimenews.net

Unlike that Priest and many others who reject Eternal Torment, I believe everything Christ and His apostles taught in Scripture.

There is eternal torment for those who commit eternal sins, but Hades isn't where that will happen.

The Lake of Fire, also known as "Gehenna", is the "garbage dump" where the evil dead will be imprisoned in hideous bodies reeking of decay and corruption.

42 and whoever may cause to stumble one of the little ones believing in me, better is it for him if a millstone is hanged about his neck, and he hath been cast into the sea.
43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
44 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
46 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
49 for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted. (Mk. 9:42-49 YLT)

Hades is NOT Gehenna. Gehenna is the place of Eternal torment, Hades is "the intermediate state" where the dead wait for their resurrection, to life or condemnation.


Hope that helps. My view is new, so you can only find out about it from me or the posts at my site or here where I discuss it.

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Postmortem Opportunity in Biblical Perspective: A New Argument Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans Life and the Afterlife The Fate of those who die unevangelized has been debated ever since the Apostles departed to be with Christ. Did God create knowing the opportunity for...

endtimenews.net

It springs from my personal research into 1st century sources and Scripture.

I am in the process of publishing my view to the learned scholars and doctors of the faith.

I hope most will give it careful consideration.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hell exists. It is a place of Torment for the wicked.

But God also makes it work for the good to all who love Him:

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Rom. 8:28 NKJ)

Since Adam and Eve perhaps billions of people died never learning the Truth about God and His love for us, so in Hades the Gospel is also preached to the Dead, lest anyone perish without having a chance to be redeemed from death:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

No one (except Jesus and those He lets out) escape from Hell, once there all must wait for Judgment Day and the Resurrection from the dead:


28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)


11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan. 12:2 NKJ)

But the unsaved dead (all from Adam and Eve onward who didn't commit eternal sins) will be liberated from sin and self-delusion, and once their free will and intellectual capacity is restored, they are presented with the Gospel.

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

"Live according to God in the spirit" could be rendered as in the Douay Rheims "may live according to God, in the Spirit"

That implies torment ends once one begins living in God the Holy Spirit, while in Hades.

God is there for us, even in Hades:

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. (Ps. 139:7-8 NKJ)


Unlike that Priest and many others who reject Eternal Torment, I believe everything Christ and His apostles taught in Scripture.

There is eternal torment for those who commit eternal sins, but Hades isn't where that will happen.

The Lake of Fire, also known as "Gehenna", is the "garbage dump" where the evil dead will be imprisoned in hideous bodies reeking of decay and corruption.

42 and whoever may cause to stumble one of the little ones believing in me, better is it for him if a millstone is hanged about his neck, and he hath been cast into the sea.
43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
44 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
46 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
49 for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted. (Mk. 9:42-49 YLT)

Hades is NOT Gehenna. Gehenna is the place of Eternal torment, Hades is "the intermediate state" where the dead wait for their resurrection, to life or condemnation.


Hope that helps. My view is new, so you can only find out about it from me or the posts at my site or here where I discuss it.

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Postmortem Opportunity in Biblical Perspective: A New Argument Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans Life and the Afterlife The Fate of those who die unevangelized has been debated ever since the Apostles departed to be with Christ. Did God create knowing the opportunity for...

endtimenews.net

It springs from my personal research into 1st century sources and Scripture.

I am in the process of publishing my view to the learned scholars and doctors of the faith.

I hope most will give it careful consideration.

I agree with you that Luke's hades is not a parable.
And I hope that you understand that Hades is not purgatory.
Also, I do believe that hades was a temporary holding place until Jesus died. Then the gates of heaven were open.
Hades is no longer necessary since Jesus' resurrection.

There will be no second chance after death.
One thing all Christians can agree on.

Do you wish to start a brand new denomination?
How many do we want?

Please join one that already exists.
There's a plethora of choice.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I agree with you that Luke's hades is not a parable.
And I hope that you understand that Hades is not purgatory.
Also, I do believe that hades was a temporary holding place until Jesus died. Then the gates of heaven were open.
Hades is no longer necessary since Jesus' resurrection.

There will be no second chance after death.
One thing all Christians can agree on.

Do you wish to start a brand new denomination?
How many do we want?

Please join one that already exists.
There's a plethora of choice.

Good. I do. Revelation 20:13-14 proves Hades will exist until after Christ's 1,000 year Kingdom, until the Great White Throne Judgment.

Its still necessary till then.

Nope
Already more denominations than we need

I have. I agree.

I'm in the process of publicizing my views about the "second chance" to the learned Pastors and scholars in Protestant Churches. Gotta start somewhere. Hopefully they will give this view careful consideration. Its taught in the New Testament and the OT is filled with scriptures about redemption from Sheol/Hades/Hell.

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Postmortem Opportunity in Biblical Perspective: A New Argument Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans Life and the Afterlife The Fate of those who die unevangelized has been debated ever since the Apostles departed to be with Christ. Did God create knowing the opportunity for...

endtimenews.net

 

[Alfred Persson]

You used to be reformed?
But what do you believe now?

Still "Southern Baptist".

But I consider myself primitive Orthodox. I reject the Filioque and icons, making everyone mad.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good. I do. Revelation 20:13-14 proves Hades will exist until after Christ's 1,000 year Kingdom, until the Great White Throne Judgment.

Its still necessary till then.

Nope
Already more denominations than we need

I have. I agree.

I'm in the process of publicizing my views about the "second chance" to the learned Pastors and scholars in Protestant Churches. Gotta start somewhere. Hopefully they will give this view careful consideration. Its taught in the New Testament and the OT is filled with scriptures about redemption from Sheol/Hades/Hell.

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Postmortem Opportunity in Biblical Perspective: A New Argument Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans Life and the Afterlife The Fate of those who die unevangelized has been debated ever since the Apostles departed to be with Christ. Did God create knowing the opportunity for...

endtimenews.net

I read Rev 20.
Intetesting.
Will read up on it tomorrow.
Also some other writings.

 

[Mungo]

I didn't say Hades (apostolic view 1st century, seen in the NT) and Purgatory are the same.

That is why I reject your objections, they aren't pertinent to my argument.

Somewhere in the past, as Palestinian Jews vanished from the church, who knew what Christ and His apostles believed about Hades, Gentiles became confused. Couldn't see the redemptive elements of Hades. Clement of Alexandria (150 AD). perhaps was one of the last to be aware of some elements of it.

I argue the similarly of Purgatory and Hades proves a common origin.

I can't prove it, but then again Catholics cannot disprove it.

But it seems a reasonable, and likely hypothesis.

On the Apologetics Forum I posted "Hell according to Jesus and His apostles. You are invited to criticize every aspect of it there.

Hell according to Jesus and His apostles

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 "And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "Then he cried and said, `Father...

christianforums.net

The Jews believed that Hades was in two parts. One was the abode of the damned. The other was "Abraham's bosom".
As wondering said about that part of hades it was "was a temporary holding place until Jesus died. Then the gates of heaven were open. Hades is no longer necessary since Jesus' resurrection."

It does not exist now.
The abode of the damned remained and is what we call hell.

Purgatory is therefore nothing to do with any concept of Hades, before or after the Resurrection of Jesus.
It is a final purification for those who die in God's friendship.
From the Catechism
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....
It is NOT "a corruption of the New Testament's concept of Hades for the unsaved". It is something entirely different.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good. I do. Revelation 20:13-14 proves Hades will exist until after Christ's 1,000 year Kingdom, until the Great White Throne Judgment.

Its still necessary till then.

Nope
Already more denominations than we need

I have. I agree.

I'm in the process of publicizing my views about the "second chance" to the learned Pastors and scholars in Protestant Churches. Gotta start somewhere. Hopefully they will give this view careful consideration. Its taught in the New Testament and the OT is filled with scriptures about redemption from Sheol/Hades/Hell.

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Postmortem Opportunity in Biblical Perspective: A New Argument Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans Life and the Afterlife The Fate of those who die unevangelized has been debated ever since the Apostles departed to be with Christ. Did God create knowing the opportunity for...

endtimenews.net

Hi AP,
You did mention purgatory in the title of your thread and it has confused me somewhat.

I think what you're speaking of is the intermediate state of what happens after death...
after death...
and before the resurrection.

I was wondering if you got any of your ideas from David Bercou.

I'd also like Mungo to read this.

When I have doubt about something Catholic, I like to refer to the ECFs. Early Church Fathers.
Usually they come into agreement with scripture (of course), but in this case I was left somewhat baffeled.
I couldn't get a clear idea of what they believed.

Now, I know Mungo is going to tell me to go by the CCC, but I'd like it if he read up a bit on this and let us both know something. Although it may not make much difference to you.... but you are hitting on some of their ideas.

PS
I don't know if you have this thread, or a similar one, in any other sub-forum, but it really doesn't belong in Catholicism. Maybe bible study?

 

[Alfred Persson]

The Jews believed that Hades was in two parts. One was the abode of the damned. The other was "Abraham's bosom".
As wondering said about that part of hades it was "was a temporary holding place until Jesus died. Then the gates of heaven were open. Hades is no longer necessary since Jesus' resurrection."

It does not exist now.
The abode of the damned remained and is what we call hell.

Purgatory is therefore nothing to do with any concept of Hades, before or after the Resurrection of Jesus.
It is a final purification for those who die in God's friendship.
From the Catechism
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....
It is NOT "a corruption of the New Testament's concept of Hades for the unsaved". It is something entirely different.

The Jews believed that Hades was in two parts. One was the abode of the damned. The other was "Abraham's bosom".

That is what our Lord Jesus and disciples believed as seen in the Rich Man and Lazarus parable. The theory the "gates of heaven were open" to Hades contradicts a key teaching:

`And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Lk. 16:26 NKJ)

As wondering said about that part of hades it was "was a temporary holding place until Jesus died. Then the gates of heaven were open. Hades is no longer necessary since Jesus' resurrection."

I don't agree, Hades continues to exist and the dead don't leave it until the Great White Throne Judgment which is at the end of the ages:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

Therefore, Jesus' resurrection didn't affect the location of Hades, but Hades can be defined as "the unseen realm" and as such Abraham's bosom is in third heaven, paradise (1 Cor. 12:2, 4) and Christ and the thief on the cross went there immediately when they died:

42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:42-43 NKJ)

Then our LORD descended into the lower part of Hades under the earth:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, (1 Pet. 3:18-19 NKJ)

He led some of its captives to third heaven paradise when He ascended, but its location remained unchanged:

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:8-10 NKJ)

It does not exist now.
The abode of the damned remained and is what we call hell.

There is no evidence for that view in the Bible. In the book of Revelation its revealed the martyrs of the faith remain segregated from Heaven proper in Third Heaven, beneath the Altar and this scene occurs in the end time, "the last days":

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11 NKJ)

Purgatory is therefore nothing to do with any concept of Hades, before or after the Resurrection of Jesus.

It is my hypothesis (I can't prove it), that Gentiles became confused about Hades as a place where the dead are judged after they died:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

That Hades purged sin and self-delusion liberating the Free Will of the dead so they could make an informed rational choice to accept the Gospel of Christ. Then the Gospel is preached also to the dead so they can repent and live according to God in the spirit:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:4-6 NKJ)

But as the Palestinian Jewish presence in the Gentile Church vanished, confusion about Hades set in. Some in the Gentile church began seeing Hades as the abode of the damned only, and sectioned off believers from into a region they called "purgatory".

The similarity of Purgatory and this concept of Hades cannot be denied. It seems reasonable to me "purgatory" diverged from this Jewish New Testament view of Hades and became a separate place for believers only to be purified before they enter heaven.

It is a final purification for those who die in God's friendship.
From the Catechism
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....
It is NOT "a corruption of the New Testament's concept of Hades for the unsaved". It is something entirely different.


That is your hypothesis Hades and Purgatory are unrelated, and just as I can't prove my hypothesis, neither can you.

But it seems probable they are connected somewhere in the hazy centuries of the church as it diverged from New Testament Teaching and created its own view of the afterlife.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Jews believed that Hades was in two parts. One was the abode of the damned. The other was "Abraham's bosom".

That is what our Lord Jesus and disciples believed as seen in the Rich Man and Lazarus parable. The theory the "gates of heaven were open" to Hades contradicts a key teaching:

`And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Lk. 16:26 NKJ)

As wondering said about that part of hades it was "was a temporary holding place until Jesus died. Then the gates of heaven were open. Hades is no longer necessary since Jesus' resurrection."

I don't agree, Hades continues to exist and the dead don't leave it until the Great White Throne Judgment which is at the end of the ages:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

Therefore, Jesus' resurrection didn't affect the location of Hades, but Hades can be defined as "the unseen realm" and as such Abraham's bosom is in third heaven, paradise (1 Cor. 12:2, 4) and Christ and the thief on the cross went there immediately when they died:

42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:42-43 NKJ)

Then our LORD descended into the lower part of Hades under the earth:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, (1 Pet. 3:18-19 NKJ)

He led some of its captives to third heaven paradise when He ascended, but its location remained unchanged:

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:8-10 NKJ)

It does not exist now.
The abode of the damned remained and is what we call hell.

There is no evidence for that view in the Bible. In the book of Revelation its revealed the martyrs of the faith remain segregated from Heaven proper in Third Heaven, beneath the Altar and this scene occurs in the end time, "the last days":

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11 NKJ)

Purgatory is therefore nothing to do with any concept of Hades, before or after the Resurrection of Jesus.

It is my hypothesis (I can't prove it), that Gentiles became confused about Hades as a place where the dead are judged after they died:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

That Hades purged sin and self-delusion liberating the Free Will of the dead so they could make an informed rational choice to accept the Gospel of Christ. Then the Gospel is preached also to the dead so they can repent and live according to God in the spirit:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:4-6 NKJ)

But as the Palestinian Jewish presence in the Gentile Church vanished, confusion about Hades set in. Some in the Gentile church began seeing Hades as the abode of the damned only, and sectioned off believers from into a region they called "purgatory".

The similarity of Purgatory and this concept of Hades cannot be denied. It seems reasonable to me "purgatory" diverged from this Jewish New Testament view of Hades and became a separate place for believers only to be purified before they enter heaven.

It is a final purification for those who die in God's friendship.
From the Catechism
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....
It is NOT "a corruption of the New Testament's concept of Hades for the unsaved". It is something entirely different.


That is your hypothesis Hades and Purgatory are unrelated, and just as I can't prove my hypothesis, neither can you.

But it seems probable they are connected somewhere in the hazy centuries of the church as it diverged from New Testament Teaching and created its own view of the afterlife.

As to all of this discussion, I DO want to confirm that the bible teaches that we have only one chance of being saved, and that is while we are still alive.

As to the rest, I've just posted on that.
Some ECFs do state what you're saying.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hi AP,
You did mention purgatory in the title of your thread and it has confused me somewhat.

I think what you're speaking of is the intermediate state of what happens after death...
after death...
and before the resurrection.

I was wondering if you got any of your ideas from David Bercou.

I'd also like Mungo to read this.

When I have doubt about something Catholic, I like to refer to the ECFs. Early Church Fathers.
Usually they come into agreement with scripture (of course), but in this case I was left somewhat baffeled.
I couldn't get a clear idea of what they believed.

Now, I know Mungo is going to tell me to go by the CCC, but I'd like it if he read up a bit on this and let us both know something. Although it may not make much difference to you.... but you are hitting on some of their ideas.

PS
I don't know if you have this thread, or a similar one, in any other sub-forum, but it really doesn't belong in Catholicism. Maybe bible study?

That is correct, Hades is the "intermediate state".

Never heard of David Bercou.

My ideas are from personal study of Christendom's ideas about Hades, and how it differs from New Testament teaching.

I believe a careful consideration of the texts the church historically evades about preaching to the dead etc., will prove the Palestinian Jewish Christian view of Hades is what the New Testament teaches, not the corrupt versions found in various sects of Christendom Catholic Orthodox or Protestant and all the others.

My discovery of the ancient Hillite view of hades is not replicated elsewhere by anyone to my knowledge.

It is unlike modern attempts at "watering down Hades". There still is eternal torment for those who commit eternal sins, and Hades is a place of punishment for sin as well as a place of possible redemption on Judgment Day:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Postmortem Opportunity in Biblical Perspective: A New Argument Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans Life and the Afterlife The Fate of those who die unevangelized has been debated ever since the Apostles departed to be with Christ. Did God create knowing the opportunity for...

endtimenews.net

 

[GodsGrace]

That is correct, Hades is the "intermediate state".

Never heard of David Bercou.

My ideas are from personal study of Christendom's ideas about Hades, and how it differs from New Testament teaching.

I believe a careful consideration of the texts the church historically evades about preaching to the dead etc., will prove the Palestinian Jewish Christian view of Hades is what the New Testament teaches, not the corrupt versions found in various sects of Christendom Catholic Orthodox or Protestant and all the others.

My discovery of the ancient Hillite view of hades is not replicated elsewhere by anyone to my knowledge.

It is unlike modern attempts at "watering down Hades". There still is eternal torment for those who commit eternal sins, and Hades is a place of punishment for sin as well as a place of possible redemption on Judgment Day:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Postmortem Opportunity in Biblical Perspective: A New Argument Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans Life and the Afterlife The Fate of those who die unevangelized has been debated ever since the Apostles departed to be with Christ. Did God create knowing the opportunity for...

endtimenews.net

Why do you use John 5:28 to support a second chance? It's not there at all.
It only states we will be judged by what we have done.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Why do you use John 5:28 to support a second chance? It's not there at all.
It only states we will be judged by what we have done.

Jesus promised "the dead in the grave "will hear His voice" and "those who have done good" will rise to the "resurrection of life". The wording parallels what Christ said about the living who hear and obey His voice:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (John 5:24 KJV)

Jesus used the same phrase ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς (hear his voice) in both John 5:24, 28. As it refers to obedient hearing leading to eternal life in John 5:24, it means obedient hearing will result in life in John 5:28-29. All who obey Christ's voice whether alive or dead shall live, be given eternal life....

Jesus speaks of "the dead" in two different senses, in John 5:25 the physically alive but spiritually "dead" who "obediently hear [His] voice" (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) pass from death into life. In John 5:28 the physically dead in the grave who "obediently hear [His] voice" (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς), will come rise to a resurrection of life.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (Jn. 5:24-25 KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good (ἀγαθὰ ποιήσαντες aorist participle), unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil (φαῦλα πράξαντες aorist participle), unto the resurrection of damnation (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)

The aorist participle in John 5:29 rendered "done" in many translations can be translated "do" or "did" (YLT, NAS, NJB), the action occurring AFTER hearing Christ's voice:

Many commentators minimize the subsequent (following) use of the aorist participle. Even such scholars as Robertson and Moulton, who recognize that the participle is not time-bound, resist this category of usage. But there are a number of examples in biblical and extra-biblical Greek where an aorist participle is used to refer to an action occurring after the action of the main verb. In virtually all of these examples, the aorist participle is placed after the main verb in syntactical order.-Porter, S. E. (1999). Idioms of the Greek New Testament (p. 189). JSOT.

The spiritually dead but physically alive who obediently hear Jesus' Voice shall spiritually live, the "dead" both physically and spiritually hear Christ's voice while in the grave and all who obey Jesus' voice shall spiritually live and rise in the resurrection of life.

https://endtimenews.net/does-the-bible-teach-a-second-chance/

 

[Mungo]

I don't know if you have this thread, or a similar one, in any other sub-forum, but it really doesn't belong in Catholicism. Maybe bible study?

I agree. Alfred Persson's fantasies don't belong in Catholicism, though I think Unorthodox Christian Ideas would be better.

 

[Mungo]

The Jews believed that Hades was in two parts. One was the abode of the damned. The other was "Abraham's bosom".

That is what our Lord Jesus and disciples believed as seen in the Rich Man and Lazarus parable. The theory the "gates of heaven were open" to Hades contradicts a key teaching:

`And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Lk. 16:26 NKJ)

No it doesn't. Heaven is not Abraham's bosom. You see very confused.

As wondering said about that part of hades it was "was a temporary holding place until Jesus died. Then the gates of heaven were open. Hades is no longer necessary since Jesus' resurrection."

I don't agree, Hades continues to exist and the dead don't leave it until the Great White Throne Judgment which is at the end of the ages:

That part of Hades in which the damned exist still exists. We call it hell.

It is a final purification for those who die in God's friendship.
From the Catechism
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.....
It is NOT "a corruption of the New Testament's concept of Hades for the unsaved". It is something entirely different.


That is your hypothesis Hades and Purgatory are unrelated, and just as I can't prove my hypothesis, neither can you.

Hades (now) = Hell. Purgatory and Hell are not the same thing.

But it seems probable they are connected somewhere in the hazy centuries of the church as it diverged from New Testament Teaching and created its own view of the afterlife.

No, Hell and Purgatory are not connected.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I agree. Alfred Persson's fantasies don't belong in Catholicism, though I think Unorthodox Christian Ideas would be better.

I disagree. Its probable "purgatory" originated from the School of Hillel's concept of Hades as a place where, after dying once, there is a judgment. And the unsaved who repent and believe will rise in the resurrection to life, because they heard Christ's voice and obeyed, they "did good":

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Even the unsaved churchgoer guilty of incest "may be saved" on Judgment Day, the Day of the LORD Jesus Christ, if he repents after destruction of his flesh = while in Hades:

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:5 NKJ)


The apostle Paul was steeped in the School of Hillel's teaching. Compared to the School of Shammai they were the most sympathetic to Christ and in the NT, when Pharisees dispute one another about Christ or His apostles, its "Hillelites" (Gamaliel) who defend Christ. Elements of their beliefs about Hades seems to found its way in the NT, as documented above.

 

[Mungo]

I disagree. Its probable "purgatory" originated from the School of Hillel's concept of Hades as a place where, after dying once, there is a judgment. And the unsaved who repent and believe will rise in the resurrection to life, because they heard Christ's voice and obeyed, they "did good":

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Even the unsaved churchgoer guilty of incest "may be saved" on Judgment Day, the Day of the LORD Jesus Christ, if he repents after destruction of his flesh = while in Hades:

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:5 NKJ)


The apostle Paul was steeped in the School of Hillel's teaching. Compared to the School of Shammai they were the most sympathetic to Christ and in the NT, when Pharisees dispute one another about Christ or His apostles, its "Hillelites" (Gamaliel) who defend Christ. Elements of their beliefs about Hades seems to found its way in the NT, as documented above.

You say "I disagree. Its probable "purgatory" originated from the School of Hillel's concept of Hades........."

Well, I disagree with that. So the issue seems to have come down to a matter of opinions.

I see no point in continuing on that basis.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You say "I disagree. Its probable "purgatory" originated from the School of Hillel's concept of Hades........."

Well, I disagree with that. So the issue seems to have come down to a matter of opinions.

I see no point in continuing on that basis.

Some Orthodox hint at the connection between the Catholic view of purgatory and the Jewish Schools in Palestine, 1st century doctrine on Hades.

The following is an article referencing Catholic Purgatory by Craig Truglia of Orthodox persuasion:

First Century Jewish Beliefs About “Purgatory”​

...

"In Review. Orthodox Christianity teaches the following pertaining to the afterlife:
...
3. The souls of the faithful who have not become dispassionate (i.e. they hunger not for righteousness only, but also have desires for worldly things) after angelic visitation experience a foretaste of eternal Hell. Yet, even there they experience the grace of God through intercessions on their behalf and “they are aware of their future release” (Decree 18, Council of Jerusalem of 1672). They have hope and look forward to their heavenly reward. There is no incomplete atonement for sins being dealt with.
...

It clearly separates Orthodoxy ...from Roman Catholicism, which similar to pre-Christian pagan beliefs in Purgatory, taught that payment for wicked deeds done in this life is exacted after death in an abode of pain.

The First Century Jewish Position. In the first century, there were several “sects” (if we may call them this) within Judaism. The main sect the Scriptures themselves are concerned with are the Pharisees, as they were the most mainstream of the sects. Within Phariseeism were two main schools: those who followed Hillel and others who followed Shammai. After the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem (70 AD), essentially the only sect of Judaism that survived were the Hillellite Pharisees.

In what scholars believe is a pre-70 AD document (or one written soon thereafter preserving doctrines that existed before 70 AD), the “School Disputes” contain some of the arguments and agreements between the schools of Hillel and Shammai. Within this document is an interesting passage which succinctly presents the mainstream Jeiwsh view of the afterlife at the time of Jesus Christ and the Apostles:

The School of Shammai says: There are three groups, “one for eternal life, one for shame and everlasting contempt” [Dan 12:2]—these are those who are completely evil.

An intermediate group go down to Gehenna and scream and come up again and are healed, as it is said: “I will bring the third part through fire and will refine them as silver is refined and will test them as gold is tested, and they shall call on my name and I will be their God” [Zech 13:9].

And concerning them did Hannah say, “The Lord kills and brings to life, brings down to
Sheol and brings up” [1 Sam 2:6].

And the School of Hillel says: “Great in mercy” (Exod 34:6)—He inclines the decision toward mercy, and concerning them David said: “I am happy that the Lord has heard the sound of my prayer” (Ps 116:1), and concerning them is said the entire passage. [Dan 12:2, see Tosephta Sanhedrin 13.3]

...

Conclusion. In previous articles, I have detailed that there is evidence of pre-Apostolic Jewish veneration of the saints and prayers to them. In this article, we show that the Jews believed in some sort of middle-state after death, one that is described by the Jews as an ascent out of “Gehenna” itself. The fact that this middle state was interpreted by the Shammaites as a punishment and from the Hillelites as a lesser reward, to me, proves two things:

First, it is clear that the Orthodox doctrine of the afterlife–that the faithful who die in sin experience a foretaste of Hell and through prayers are liberated from this condition, is referred to in the above Jewish sources. Unlike the Roman Catholic concept of Purgatory, the punishment in the Jewish sources is not described as a third place between Heaven and Hell, but literally the experience of Hell (Gehenna) itself. Further, there is no Jewish concept of there being a payment of debts or additional atonement for the temporal effect of sins in Gehenna. This shows that the Jewish doctrine is the same as the Orthodox one and lacks the Roman Catholic distinctives which make the doctrine of Purgatory different than Orthodox doctrine. In fact, because the experience of Gehenna is seen by some Jews as punishment and others as decreased reward, a conclusion we may draw is that both Jewish schools were trying to describe Orthodox doctrine from two different vantage points. In Orthodoxy, the afterlife is essentially a spectrum of enjoyment (or displeasure) pertaining to the experience of looking upon God’s face. The fact that the afterlife is a spectrum of sorts is consistent with the sort of relativism we see in the Jewish school disputes over what the middle state is like."

https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2018/08/20/first-century-jewish-beliefs-about-purgatory/

His conclusion connecting Orthodox "purgatory" to the view of Hades among the Jewish religious schools accomplishes the same as my hypothesis BOTH Orthodox and Catholic views, although dissimilar in some points, are outgrowths of a confused concept of Hades.

 

[Mungo]

Some Orthodox hint at the connection between the Catholic view of purgatory and the Jewish Schools in Palestine, 1st century doctrine on Hades.

The following is an article referencing Catholic Purgatory by Craig Truglia of Orthodox persuasion:

First Century Jewish Beliefs About “Purgatory”​

...

"In Review. Orthodox Christianity teaches the following pertaining to the afterlife:
...
3. The souls of the faithful who have not become dispassionate (i.e. they hunger not for righteousness only, but also have desires for worldly things) after angelic visitation experience a foretaste of eternal Hell. Yet, even there they experience the grace of God through intercessions on their behalf and “they are aware of their future release” (Decree 18, Council of Jerusalem of 1672). They have hope and look forward to their heavenly reward. There is no incomplete atonement for sins being dealt with.
...

It clearly separates Orthodoxy ...from Roman Catholicism, which similar to pre-Christian pagan beliefs in Purgatory, taught that payment for wicked deeds done in this life is exacted after death in an abode of pain.

The First Century Jewish Position. In the first century, there were several “sects” (if we may call them this) within Judaism. The main sect the Scriptures themselves are concerned with are the Pharisees, as they were the most mainstream of the sects. Within Phariseeism were two main schools: those who followed Hillel and others who followed Shammai. After the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem (70 AD), essentially the only sect of Judaism that survived were the Hillellite Pharisees.

In what scholars believe is a pre-70 AD document (or one written soon thereafter preserving doctrines that existed before 70 AD), the “School Disputes” contain some of the arguments and agreements between the schools of Hillel and Shammai. Within this document is an interesting passage which succinctly presents the mainstream Jeiwsh view of the afterlife at the time of Jesus Christ and the Apostles:

The School of Shammai says: There are three groups, “one for eternal life, one for shame and everlasting contempt” [Dan 12:2]—these are those who are completely evil.

An intermediate group go down to Gehenna and scream and come up again and are healed, as it is said: “I will bring the third part through fire and will refine them as silver is refined and will test them as gold is tested, and they shall call on my name and I will be their God” [Zech 13:9].

And concerning them did Hannah say, “The Lord kills and brings to life, brings down to
Sheol and brings up” [1 Sam 2:6].

And the School of Hillel says: “Great in mercy” (Exod 34:6)—He inclines the decision toward mercy, and concerning them David said: “I am happy that the Lord has heard the sound of my prayer” (Ps 116:1), and concerning them is said the entire passage. [Dan 12:2, see Tosephta Sanhedrin 13.3]

...

Conclusion. In previous articles, I have detailed that there is evidence of pre-Apostolic Jewish veneration of the saints and prayers to them. In this article, we show that the Jews believed in some sort of middle-state after death, one that is described by the Jews as an ascent out of “Gehenna” itself. The fact that this middle state was interpreted by the Shammaites as a punishment and from the Hillelites as a lesser reward, to me, proves two things:

First, it is clear that the Orthodox doctrine of the afterlife–that the faithful who die in sin experience a foretaste of Hell and through prayers are liberated from this condition, is referred to in the above Jewish sources. Unlike the Roman Catholic concept of Purgatory, the punishment in the Jewish sources is not described as a third place between Heaven and Hell, but literally the experience of Hell (Gehenna) itself. Further, there is no Jewish concept of there being a payment of debts or additional atonement for the temporal effect of sins in Gehenna. This shows that the Jewish doctrine is the same as the Orthodox one and lacks the Roman Catholic distinctives which make the doctrine of Purgatory different than Orthodox doctrine. In fact, because the experience of Gehenna is seen by some Jews as punishment and others as decreased reward, a conclusion we may draw is that both Jewish schools were trying to describe Orthodox doctrine from two different vantage points. In Orthodoxy, the afterlife is essentially a spectrum of enjoyment (or displeasure) pertaining to the experience of looking upon God’s face. The fact that the afterlife is a spectrum of sorts is consistent with the sort of relativism we see in the Jewish school disputes over what the middle state is like."

https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2018/08/20/first-century-jewish-beliefs-about-purgatory/

His conclusion connecting Orthodox "purgatory" to the view of Hades among the Jewish religious schools accomplishes the same as my hypothesis BOTH Orthodox and Catholic views, although dissimilar in some points, are outgrowths of a confused concept of Hades.

And some Othodox teach Aerial Toll-Houses regarding the souls journey after its departure from the body after death.
But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which – even thought they have repented over them – they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sin, (St. Mark of Ephesus)
(https://orthodoxwiki.org/Aerial_Toll-Houses)

Many Protestants believe in a purification after death but they call it Glorification.
Glorification is the Protestant alternative to purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven."
The majority of Protestant denominations believe in this form of glorification, although some have alternative names.
(askdefine.com)

“Glorification involves first of all the believer's sanctification or moral perfection (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Hebrews 2:10-11 ), in which the believer will be made glorious, holy, and blameless (Ephesians 5:27 ). The process of sanctification is at work in us now (2 Corinthians 3:18 ) but moves from one degree of glory to another until it reaches final glory.”
(Bakers Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Terms)

“Glorification marks the completion of Christ's work of redemption as the believer stands before God having been awakened from sin's deadly slumber, having been given a new heart and having been purified completely in soul and body.”
( Dr. James E. Bordwine – Westminster Presbyterian Church)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1080697/posts

Your claims are full of suppositions, possibles, hints and assertions with no evidence.
The fact is that you have no solid evidence for your claims, just speculations.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No it doesn't. Heaven is not Abraham's bosom. You see very confused.

That part of Hades in which the damned exist still exists. We call it hell.



Hades (now) = Hell. Purgatory and Hell are not the same thing.

No, Hell and Purgatory are not connected.

If you believe Scripture then "Abraham's bosom" is in "third heaven" "paradise":

And some Othodox teach Aerial Toll-Houses regarding the souls journey after its departure from the body after death.
But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which – even thought they have repented over them – they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sin, (St. Mark of Ephesus)
(https://orthodoxwiki.org/Aerial_Toll-Houses)

Many Protestants believe in a purification after death but they call it Glorification.
Glorification is the Protestant alternative to purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven."
The majority of Protestant denominations believe in this form of glorification, although some have alternative names.
(askdefine.com)

“Glorification involves first of all the believer's sanctification or moral perfection (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Hebrews 2:10-11 ), in which the believer will be made glorious, holy, and blameless (Ephesians 5:27 ). The process of sanctification is at work in us now (2 Corinthians 3:18 ) but moves from one degree of glory to another until it reaches final glory.”
(Bakers Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Terms)

“Glorification marks the completion of Christ's work of redemption as the believer stands before God having been awakened from sin's deadly slumber, having been given a new heart and having been purified completely in soul and body.”
( Dr. James E. Bordwine – Westminster Presbyterian Church)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1080697/posts

Your claims are full of suppositions, possibles, hints and assertions with no evidence.
The fact is that you have no solid evidence for your claims, just speculations.

"Sanctification" must happen in a "twinkling of an eye" because that is how quickly the living Church will be "changed", resurrected during the gathering at Christ's coming:

49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (1 Cor. 15:49-55 NKJ)

You say:

Your claims are full of suppositions, possibles, hints and assertions with no evidence.
The fact is that you have no solid evidence for your claims, just speculations.

Isn't that true for many hypothesis? Whether it Is "probable" is what gives a hypothesis credence.

The similarity of some aspects of "purgatory" to 1st century Christian concepts of Hades makes my hypothesis credible.

I don't have "smoking gun proof", but that is true for many theories on origins.

The only 100% reliable objective truth is God's Holy Word, the Bible.

 

[Mungo]

If you believe Scripture then "Abraham's bosom" is in "third heaven" "paradise":

I do believe scripture but not your interpretation of them.

"Sanctification" must happen in a "twinkling of an eye" because that is how quickly the living Church will be "changed", resurrected during the gathering at Christ's coming:

49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (1 Cor. 15:49-55 NKJ)

Time is a function of this world.

You say:

Your claims are full of suppositions, possibles, hints and assertions with no evidence.
The fact is that you have no solid evidence for your claims, just speculations.

Isn't that true for many hypothesis? Whether it Is "probable" is what gives a hypothesis credence.

The similarity of some aspects of "purgatory" to 1st century Christian concepts of Hades makes my hypothesis credible.

I don't have "smoking gun proof", but that is true for many theories on origins.

The only 100% reliable objective truth is God's Holy Word, the Bible.

You don't have much for any of your theories on this. Just assertions.