THE GREAT I AM

[GodsGrace]

In discussing the Trinity the I AM said by Jesus always comes up.

What did Jesus mean by saying:



John 8:42.....
“If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45“But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46“Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
48The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
49Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
50“But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
52The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’
53“Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?”
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;
55and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.



Is this not sufficient to show that Jesus believed He existed before the incarnation?
Why would the Jews have wanted to stone Him for saying this?
Does this statement by Jesus prove that John 1:1 is correct?



John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I think knowing Jesus is the great I am is something believers come to learn. We're told that Jesus is God the Son and we can believe that, but I think to know it we need to obey him.

Also I think it's important to point out that doubters make a big deal that Jesus never directly said, "I'm God", but dear God chose not to reveal himself in a way that would have brought immediate judgment on sinners.

 

[tigger 2]

In discussing the Trinity the I AM said by Jesus always comes up.

What did Jesus mean by saying:



John 8:42.....
“If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45“But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46“Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
48The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
49Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
50“But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
52The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’
53“Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?”
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;
55and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.



Is this not sufficient to show that Jesus believed He existed before the incarnation?
Why would the Jews have wanted to stone Him for saying this?
Does this statement by Jesus prove that John 1:1 is correct?



John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

...................................................
Some trinitarian translators go even further than merely not capitalizing at John 8:58 and further clarify the probable meaning in English and thereby refute the deceptive "I AM" interpretation of a few trinitarians.
These translations (most by trinitarians) render ego eimi at John 8:58 as:
(1) “I HAVE BEEN” - alternate reading in 1960 thru 1973 reference editions of NASB
(2) “I HAVE BEEN” - The New Testament, G. R. Noyes
(3) “I HAVE BEEN” - “The Four Gospels” According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest, A. S. Lewis
(4) “I HAVE ALREADY BEEN” - The Unvarnished New Testament
(5) “I HAVE EXISTED” - The Bible, A New Translation, Dr. James Moffatt
(6) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 ed., Beck
(7) “I EXISTED” - An American Translation, Goodspeed
(8) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams
(9) “I EXISTED” - New Simplified Bible
(10) “I WAS IN EXISTENCE” - Living Bible
(11) “I WAS ALIVE” - The Simple English Bible
(12)“I WAS” - Holy Bible - From the Ancient Eastern Text, Lamsa
(13)“I WAS” - Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1st ed. (Also see Young’s Concise Critical Commentary, p. 61 of “The New Covenant.”).
(14) “I WAS” - The Syriac New Testament, Jas. Murdock
(15) “I WAS” - H. T. Anderson
(16) “I WAS” - Twentieth Century New Testament
(17) "I EXISTED" - New Living Translation (NLT)

Additional (found in an on-line post):
The Living New Testament:

"The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born."

The 20th Century New Testament:
"before Abraham existed I was."

Parker, P.G. Clarified N.T.:
Jesus answered, before Abraham existed, I existed.

Cotton Patch Version (1970):
To this Jesus replied, I existed before Abraham was born.

Good News for the World (1969)
Jesus answer, I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.

New Believers Bible, New Living Translation:
"I existed before Abraham was even born."

The New Testament, Kleist and Lilly:
"I am here-and I was before Abraham."

Wakefield, G. N.T. (1795)
Jesus said unto them: Verily verily I say unto you, before Abraham was born, I am He.

The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, Burkitt & The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John, Blake & Briere:
"Before Abraham came to be, I was."

The New Testament Or Rather the New Covenant, Sharpe:
"I was before Abraham was born."

The New Testament, Stage:
"Before Abraham came to be, I was."

The Documents of the New Testament, Wade:
"Before Abraham came into being, I have existed."

Noli, M.F.S. N.T. (1961)
Jesus answered them: Well, well, I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born.

The Concise Gospel and The Acts, Christianson:
"I existed even before Abraham was born."

The Original New Testament, Schonfield: "I tell you for a positive fact, I existed before Abraham was born."

The Complete Gospels Annotated Scholars Version,
Miller: "I existed before there was an Abraham."

Swann, G. N.T. (1947)
Jesus said to them, verily, verily I say unto you, I existed before Abraham was born

International English Version (2001)
"I was alive before Abraham was born" - https://robertangle.com/john-858-various-english-translations-that-recognize-jesus-did-not-say-i-am/

It's interesting to see that even the paraphrase Bible, the Living Bible (also published as The Word and The Book), which often takes great liberties with the literal text in order to better bring out trinitarian interpretations, denies an " 'I' AM' = God" interpretation for John 8:58. It brings out, instead, the obvious intended meaning of John 8:58 as: "the absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!" ' not "I was God before Abraham...."

The point is that numerous trinitarian scholars would not ignore a popular 'Jesus is God' proof if it were not clearly in doubt.
- from my study: http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/i-am-part-1.html

 

[Free]

...................................................
Some trinitarian translators go even further than merely not capitalizing at John 8:58 and further clarify the probable meaning in English and thereby refute the deceptive "I AM" interpretation of a few trinitarians.
These translations (most by trinitarians) render ego eimi at John 8:58 as:
(1) “I HAVE BEEN” - alternate reading in 1960 thru 1973 reference editions of NASB
(2) “I HAVE BEEN” - The New Testament, G. R. Noyes
(3) “I HAVE BEEN” - “The Four Gospels” According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest, A. S. Lewis
(4) “I HAVE ALREADY BEEN” - The Unvarnished New Testament
(5) “I HAVE EXISTED” - The Bible, A New Translation, Dr. James Moffatt
(6) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 ed., Beck
(7) “I EXISTED” - An American Translation, Goodspeed
(8) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams
(9) “I EXISTED” - New Simplified Bible
(10) “I WAS IN EXISTENCE” - Living Bible
(11) “I WAS ALIVE” - The Simple English Bible
(12)“I WAS” - Holy Bible - From the Ancient Eastern Text, Lamsa
(13)“I WAS” - Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1st ed. (Also see Young’s Concise Critical Commentary, p. 61 of “The New Covenant.”).
(14) “I WAS” - The Syriac New Testament, Jas. Murdock
(15) “I WAS” - H. T. Anderson
(16) “I WAS” - Twentieth Century New Testament
(17) "I EXISTED" - New Living Translation (NLT)

Additional (found in an on-line post):
The Living New Testament:

"The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born."

The 20th Century New Testament:
"before Abraham existed I was."

Parker, P.G. Clarified N.T.:
Jesus answered, before Abraham existed, I existed.

Cotton Patch Version (1970):
To this Jesus replied, I existed before Abraham was born.

Good News for the World (1969)
Jesus answer, I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.

New Believers Bible, New Living Translation:
"I existed before Abraham was even born."

The New Testament, Kleist and Lilly:
"I am here-and I was before Abraham."

Wakefield, G. N.T. (1795)
Jesus said unto them: Verily verily I say unto you, before Abraham was born, I am He.

The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, Burkitt & The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John, Blake & Briere:
"Before Abraham came to be, I was."

The New Testament Or Rather the New Covenant, Sharpe:
"I was before Abraham was born."

The New Testament, Stage:
"Before Abraham came to be, I was."

The Documents of the New Testament, Wade:
"Before Abraham came into being, I have existed."

Noli, M.F.S. N.T. (1961)
Jesus answered them: Well, well, I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born.

The Concise Gospel and The Acts, Christianson:
"I existed even before Abraham was born."

The Original New Testament, Schonfield: "I tell you for a positive fact, I existed before Abraham was born."

The Complete Gospels Annotated Scholars Version,
Miller: "I existed before there was an Abraham."

Swann, G. N.T. (1947)
Jesus said to them, verily, verily I say unto you, I existed before Abraham was born

International English Version (2001)
"I was alive before Abraham was born" - https://robertangle.com/john-858-various-english-translations-that-recognize-jesus-did-not-say-i-am/

It's interesting to see that even the paraphrase Bible, the Living Bible (also published as The Word and The Book), which often takes great liberties with the literal text in order to better bring out trinitarian interpretations, denies an " 'I' AM' = God" interpretation for John 8:58. It brings out, instead, the obvious intended meaning of John 8:58 as: "the absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!" ' not "I was God before Abraham...."

The point is that numerous trinitarian scholars would not ignore a popular 'Jesus is God' proof if it were not clearly in doubt.
- from my study: http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/i-am-part-1.html

None of that proves that Jesus didn't say "I Am," nor does any of that put it in doubt. This becomes even more clear when we look at verses 23-24:

Joh 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am [he] you will die in your sins.” (ESV)

Notice that Jesus first says he is "from above" and "not of this world." It is then that he says "unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins." The "he" in verse 24 is not in the Greek and changes the meaning of the text. So, we already have Jesus claiming to be the I Am. It's also worth noting that Paul essentially makes the same point in Rom 10:9-13 by equating confessing that Jesus is Lord with calling on the name of Yahweh. Both passages are saying that unless one believes Jesus is God, they will die in their sins.

More problematic for you and the author of the site you link to, is that the NWT has ego eimi as "I am" in verse 24, but translates it differently than in verse 58. It also adds "the one" which isn't in the Greek. And then, when we look at the Kingdom Interlinear, things get interesting. In both verses 24 and 58 it translates ego eimi as "I am."

So, if the Kingdom Interlinear says "I am" in both verses, and the NWT does in verse 24, why does the NWT translate ego eimi differently in verse 58? It actually does support the assertion made by Trinitarians against the NWT "that the New World Translation is unique in that it renders the passage in a way that suits our belief that the trinity doctrine is a false teaching;" which the author of that site says is false. While it may not be unique in its rendering of ego eimi in verse 58, it certainly appears that the NWT does do it to support the belief that the Trinity is a false doctrine.

Can you think of any other reason for the discrepancy?

A proper understanding of the above must take into account all that John says, in his prologue about the preincarnate Son, the Word, and elsewhere about Jesus and God. The Logos had absolute existence and was in personal and intimate relationship with God. We read of the oft used title "Son of God," which is a claim to deity, since a son is always the same nature as his father; it cannot be otherwise without "sonship" being meaningless. The Jews clearly properly understood Jesus's claim that having God as his Father meant he was claiming equality with God. We also see that John says in 1 John 4:8 and 16, that God is love. God cannot be love--it cannot be intrinsic to his nature--if there was no other person with absolute existence along with the Father.

There is more that can be said, but that is enough to show that the clear and consistent message of John is that Jesus, as the only begotten Son of God, is truly God in nature.

 

[Runningman]

In discussing the Trinity the I AM said by Jesus always comes up.

What did Jesus mean by saying:



John 8:42.....
“If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45“But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46“Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
48The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
49Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
50“But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
52The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’
53“Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?”
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;
55and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.



Is this not sufficient to show that Jesus believed He existed before the incarnation?
Why would the Jews have wanted to stone Him for saying this?
Does this statement by Jesus prove that John 1:1 is correct?



John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In my humble view, it seems to not mesh well with what God said about Himself as the I AM in Exodus 3. Jesus is not known as YHWH, the God of their fathers, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob nor did God say His name would forever be Jesus, Yeshua, Yahoshua, Christ, Messiah, Son, etc or wanted to be remembered that way.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD,[YHWH] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

 

[Free]

In my humble view, it seems to not mesh well with what God said about Himself as the I AM in Exodus 3. Jesus is not known as YHWH, the God of their fathers, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob nor did God say His name would forever be Jesus, Yeshua, Yahoshua, Christ, Messiah, Son, etc or wanted to be remembered that way.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD,[YHWH] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

But that is just begging the question.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Wondering, Free, journeyman

In discussing the Trinity the I AM said by Jesus always comes up.
What did Jesus mean by saying:
John 8: 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

None of that proves that Jesus didn't say "I Am," nor does any of that put it in doubt. This becomes even more clear when we look at verses 23-24:
Joh 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am [he] you will die in your sins.” (ESV)
Notice that Jesus first says he is "from above" and "not of this world." It is then that he says "unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins." The "he" in verse 24 is not in the Greek and changes the meaning of the text.

I am he is an acceptable translation and DOES NOT change the meaning of the text. I consider that John 8:58 should be translated as "I am he" where the same words occur in the immediate context:
John 8:24–28 (KJV): 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
The second of these above, verse 28 Jesus IS NOT claiming to be Deity, but he is completely dependent on God, His Father. The theme in John's Gospel here is whether on not Jesus is the Christ.

THE GREAT I AM​

I think knowing Jesus is the great I am is something believers come to learn.

In my humble view, it seems to not mesh well with what God said about Himself as the I AM in Exodus 3. Jesus is not known as YHWH, the God of their fathers, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob nor did God say His name would forever be Jesus, Yeshua, Yahoshua, Christ, Messiah, Son, etc or wanted to be remembered that way.
Exodus 3: 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
15 God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD,[YHWH] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

I consider that Tyndale's translation and the RV and RSV margin renditions is the correct translation "I will be", not "I AM":
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Runningman]

Greetings Wondering, Free, journeyman


I am he is an acceptable translation and DOES NOT change the meaning of the text. I consider that John 8:58 should be translated as "I am he" where the same words occur in the immediate context:
John 8:24–28 (KJV): 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
The second of these above, verse 28 Jesus IS NOT claiming to be Deity, but he is completely dependent on God, His Father. The theme in John's Gospel here is whether on not Jesus is the Christ.



I consider that Tyndale's translation and the RV and RSV margin renditions is the correct translation "I will be", not "I AM":
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

Kind regards
Trevor

They may be many different ways to translate something into English, but the context should inform and guide the translation. It wouldn't really be possible to render an accurate translation if one didn't understand the context and purpose of what the writer is saying. That's why I am definitely open to looking more into how to interpret the scripture in a way that creates harmony.

 

[Free]

Greetings Wondering, Free, journeyman


I am he is an acceptable translation and DOES NOT change the meaning of the text. I consider that John 8:58 should be translated as "I am he" where the same words occur in the immediate context:
John 8:24–28 (KJV): 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
The second of these above, verse 28 Jesus IS NOT claiming to be Deity, but he is completely dependent on God, His Father.

The problem is, of course, that "he" isn't in the Greek text in any of those verses. Adding "he" changes the meaning from I Am to the Messiah or Son of God or something else. Of course, in one sense it doesn't matter, as John has already made the clear case that the Son is God, equal to the Father. But, in another sense, it matters because many believe that "Messiah" and "Son of God" refer to a person who is less than God.

There is no basis for translating John 8:58 as "I am he." First, because "he" isn't in the Greek. Second, that doesn't fit the context of verse 58 or the context of verses 53-59.

The theme in John's Gospel here is whether on not Jesus is the Christ.

Yes, he states why he wrote in John 20:31. But we cannot ignore his prologue, where he defines who the Son is--he is both God and man. That is the foundation of who Jesus is for the rest of his gospel; we can never let that out of our sight as we read everything else he wrote.

I consider that Tyndale's translation and the RV and RSV margin renditions is the correct translation "I will be", not "I AM":
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

Kind regards
Trevor

Why do you believe that translation is correct over against the various other translations?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I think knowing Jesus is the great I am is something believers come to learn. We're told that Jesus is God the Son and we can believe that, but I think to know it we need to obey him.

Also I think it's important to point out that doubters make a big deal that Jesus never directly said, "I'm God", but dear God chose not to reveal himself in a way that would have brought immediate judgment on sinners.

Hello journeyman, why do think Jesus said God is a Spirit?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Greetings Wondering, Free, journeyman

I consider that Tyndale's translation and the RV and RSV margin renditions is the correct translation "I will be", not "I AM":
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hello Trevor.
To me your version doesn't matter for the reason I gave in post #2, because knowing Jesus is knowing the only One who has never changed.
He will be who he will be, because he was who he always was.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hello journeyman, why do think Jesus said God is a Spirit?

So they would recognize him as their only King,

I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes? Hos.13:10

He "would be" only in the sense that he's referring back to when Israel first demanded a human king.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

So they would recognize him as their only King,

I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes? Hos.13:10

He "would be" only in the sense that he's referring back to when Israel first demanded a human king.

journeyman, I understand, and thanks, I have been curious, ever since He made that statement, but it is my understanding that not only for worship but the way that I see it, God was in Christ.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

journeyman, I understand, and thanks, I have been curious, ever since He made that statement, but it is my understanding that not only for worship but the way that I see it, God was in Christ.

Yes, God in Christ reconciling sinners to himself. God is doing the same work us,

as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2Cor.5:20

We don't beseech people in our own names, or in the name of each other though. ?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Yes, God in Christ reconciling sinners to himself. God is doing the same work us,

as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2Cor.5:20

We don't beseech people in our own names, or in the name of each other though. ?

Amen! to that Brother.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Runningman, Free and journeyman,

They may be many different ways to translate something into English, but the context should inform and guide the translation. It wouldn't really be possible to render an accurate translation if one didn't understand the context and purpose of what the writer is saying. That's why I am definitely open to looking more into how to interpret the scripture in a way that creates harmony.

Yes, we need to carefully consider the context on each occasion. Could I ask you and others, how do you understand the following. What is Jesus saying and referring to when he said that Abraham "rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad"? Does this have a significant bearing on what happened next and what Jesus states in John 8:58?
John 8:56 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The problem is, of course, that "he" isn't in the Greek text in any of those verses. Adding "he" changes the meaning from I Am to the Messiah or Son of God or something else.

You keep on insisting that the "he" is not in the Greek text and as such inferring that it is WRONG to in any way insert it. But the KJV translators saw the necessity to add the "he" in both John 8:24 and John 8:28 in the immediate context in order to smoothly translate from the Greek to the English. They also added the "he" to both of the following and I consider that this demonstrates that the meaning in these particular contexts demand the addition of "he" and in some Bible versions they simply add "he" in this context, suggesting that the Greek is different to our usual English expression:
John 4:25–26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

John 9:8–9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
The first reference is part of the theme of whether Jesus is the Christ or not, and the second proves that the addition of "he" is not altering the Greek text, but is necessary to properly understand the expression in English.

But, in another sense, it matters because many believe that "Messiah" and "Son of God" refer to a person who is less than God.
There is no basis for translating John 8:58 as "I am he." First, because "he" isn't in the Greek. Second, that doesn't fit the context of verse 58 or the context of verses 53-59.

I am among those that believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, not God the Son. I also believe that the context of John 8:58 helps to accept that Jesus is stating "I am he", that is the Christ.

Why do you believe that translation is correct over against the various other translations?

First I like the interesting spelling, historical, but also it reminds us by "wilbe" that "will be" is one verb. But mainly the context is that God would be with Moses to help him deliver Israel out of Egypt and into the promised land. God had already proclaimed his existence in and through the burning bush, and the words are in the English present tense. But here God is stating what he is about to accomplish. Exodus 3:12 translates the same word as "I will be". Many scholars teach that the Hebrew tense here is best represented by the English future tense.

Hello Trevor. To me your version doesn't matter for the reason I gave in post #2, because knowing Jesus is knowing the only One who has never changed.
He will be who he will be, because he was who he always was.

Jesus reveals God the Father, but I do not accept that Jesus is God the Son. I believe that he is the Son of God, a human, now exalted to sit at the right hand of God in God the Father's throne, and Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Jesus reveals God the Father, but I do not accept that Jesus is God the Son. I believe that he is the Son of God, a human, now exalted to sit at the right hand of God in God the Father's throne, and Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hi Trevor.
The reason Jesus sits on the Throne of God is why he is God in human flesh.
His Throne is the mercy seat and the way he was abused without annihilating his enemies makes it quite clear why He sits in mercy.
It's all about God. He's on his Throne as God, the High Priest and the Sacrifice. Look at him that way my friend and It becomes crystal clear why reformed theology is way off the truth.

 

[Runningman]

Greetings Runningman, Free and journeyman,

Yes, we need to carefully consider the context on each occasion. Could I ask you and others, how do you understand the following. What is Jesus saying and referring to when he said that Abraham "rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad"? Does this have a significant bearing on what happened next and what Jesus states in John 8:58?
John 8:56 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

I don't believe Abraham literally saw Jesus' day. There aren't any examples of Jesus having a day in the Old Testament, that I am aware of, but there are plenty prophecies regarding him coming in the future.

I don't believe seeing is always literally visually looking at something with your eyes. For example, in Hebrews 11 they died without having received their promise even though they still saw them. It's about faith. Abraham saw the prophecies of Jesus' day in faith.

Hebrews 11
13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Amen! to that Brother.

Amen!

It used to be strange to me when our Lord said things like, "My hour hasn't come yet"
But when we read about how Jesus' followers were persecuted, it's understandable why they didn't go into every synagogue proclaiming Jesus is God.
They put him to death for blasphemy anyway. The Truth is, he patiently allowed unimaginable cruelty (sin) against Himself and continued loving his torturers,

for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Lk.6:35

He's describing Himself and He proved it.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Amen!

It used to be strange to me when our Lord said things like, "My hour hasn't come yet"
But when we read about how Jesus' followers were persecuted, it's understandable why they didn't go into every synagogue proclaiming Jesus is God.
They put him to death for blasphemy anyway. The Truth is, he patiently allowed unimaginable cruelty (sin) against Himself and continued loving his torturers,

for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Lk.6:35

He's describing Himself and He proved it.

I see, it shows in the scripture He demonstrates the fruit of the Spirit.