THE GREAT I AM

[CherubRam]

John 1:1

Greek:
en arche eimi ho logos kai ho logos eimi pros ton theon kai theos eimi ho logos

Interlinear:
en (in) arche (beginning) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (Word) kai (and) ho (the) logos (Word) eimi (was) pos (toward or with) ton (TON is a special definite article "the" meaning "the only," it appears as TON instead of O in the Greek) theon (Divine Eternal) kai (and) theos (divine) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (Word)

In English we have:
In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (the only) Divine Eternal, and divine was the Word.

Why do translators drop off the definite article TON (the only) before Divine Eternal?

 

[Alfred Persson]

John 1:1

Greek:
en arche eimi ho logos kai ho logos eimi pros ton theon kai theos eimi ho logos

Interlinear:
en (in) arche (beginning) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (Word) kai (and) ho (the) logos (Word) eimi (was) pos (toward or with) ton (TON is a special definite article "the" meaning "the only," it appears as TON instead of O in the Greek) theon (Divine Eternal) kai (and) theos (divine) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (Word)

In English we have:
In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (the only) Divine Eternal, and divine was the Word.

Why do translators drop off the definite article TON (the only) before Divine Eternal?

Because in English its not needed, as the very next verse proves:

BYZ John 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

2 Οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν. (Jn. 1:1-2 BYZ)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God. (Jn. 1:1-2 NKJ)

"The God" in Greek means "God" in English.

Your addition of "the only" is eisegesis, not translation.

 

[Free]

John 1:1

Greek:
en arche eimi ho logos kai ho logos eimi pros ton theon kai theos eimi ho logos

Interlinear:
en (in) arche (beginning) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (Word) kai (and) ho (the) logos (Word) eimi (was) pos (toward or with) ton (TON is a special definite article "the" meaning "the only," it appears as TON instead of O in the Greek) theon (Divine Eternal) kai (and) theos (divine) eimi (was) ho (the) logos (Word)

In English we have:
In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (the only) Divine Eternal, and divine was the Word.

Why do translators drop off the definite article TON (the only) before Divine Eternal?

This argument has been shown to be false several times. It would do you well to stop posting it.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free and Greetings JLB,

he is greater than Abraham

Jesus was greater than Abraham because he was in the plan and purpose of God as the promised before Abraham came into existence.
Genesis 3:14–15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;

Also contextually, by referring to himself with the name of God, he is claiming to be God

I AM is not the Name of God.

"I will be" doesn't make sense as a name--I will be...what?

It makes a lot of sense to those who have carefully considered God's Name.

The Angel of the LORD is one Entity; God

The Angel of the LORD is the Messenger of the LORD. Two distinct Beings.

Kind regards
Trvor

 

[Runningman]

Jesus has two natures, He is both God and man, even while He spoke on earth, He never ceased being God in Heaven:

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 NKJ)

No one has ascended to heaven and returned to teach God's Truth. The only One from Heaven now speaking on the earth is the Son of Man, and not only that, He never ceases to exist as God in heaven.

I believe you are misunderstanding that. According to your line of thinking, you are saying that the Son of Man was in heaven existing as God (YHWH) but from heaven God said that He is not a son of man. He said He would not lie or change His mind about these facts.

Numbers 23​

19God is not a man, that He should lie,​

or a son of man, that He should change His mind.​

Does He speak and not act?​

Does He promise and not fulfill?​

Therefore, the correct interpretation of what you're referring to is in regards to Jesus non literally existing in heaven except for in the mind of, the foreknowledge of, the Logos of, God. This is the best and only way to remove the contractions like the one you introduced above. Jesus existed in heaven in the logos of God (in the bosom or heart of God) and then came down to earth where God's plans manifested by creating a man. (John 1:1-14)

A parallel to this is seen here:

Then Yahweh rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from Yahweh out of the heavens. (Gen. 19:24).

Yahweh the Son is on earth, calling down fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from Yahweh the Father and Spirit in heaven.


Just as Jesus never ceased being God in heaven while He spoke to men on earth, so also Yahweh God the Son never ceased be in heaven, even as He appeared as a man to Abraham on earth:


1 Then Yahweh appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground
...

13 And Yahweh said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, `Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?'
14 "Is anything too hard for Yahweh?... (Gen. 18:1-14 NKJ)

Yahweh the Son was on earth with two angels, all three appeared as men to Abraham. But God the Holy Spirit identifies one of them, who ate and drank with Abraham, was Yahweh God Himself.

But being on earth with Abraham didn't mean God ceased to exist in heaven, He is omnipresent and can manifest a "theophany" or "form" anywhere He wants.

This is not a "hologram", its His actual real presence, His "Name". He manifests it anywhere He desires, like in the Temple, in the Holy of Holies:

for Thine eyes being open towards this house night and day, towards the place of which Thou hast said, My Name is there; to hearken unto the prayer which Thy servant prayeth towards this place. (1 Ki. 8:29 YLT)

Infinite Spirit Yahweh the Son localizes His presence to angels in heaven by manifesting a "form" of God. When Christ added to Himself human nature via the virgin birth of Christ, He never ceased to be infinite God in heaven. Rather, He "made Himself of no reputation" "emptying Himself of the prerogatives and privileges of being God, to appear as man on earth:

YHWH and Jesus are not the same person. Here is just one clear example of this.

The Lord (Jesus) is at the LORD's(YHWH) right hand.

Psalm 110
1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”

5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, (Phil. 2:5-8 YLT)

"the form of a servant having TAKEN (λαβών)" = an addition, not substitution. He added to Himself human nature via the virgin birth.

Therefore, when Jesus was conceived in Mary's Womb by Holy Spirit, the "sphere of infinite radius that is Yahweh the Son", became "centered" in the humanity of Jesus. Both natures, human and divine belong to the Person of Yahweh the Son, and He simultaneously exists in both.

What is your definition of the word "form" in the above passage? Do you consider it to be the outward appearance or shape like Greek lexicons say?

 

[CherubRam]

Because in English its not needed, as the very next verse proves:

BYZ John 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

2 Οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν. (Jn. 1:1-2 BYZ)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God. (Jn. 1:1-2 NKJ)

"The God" in Greek means "God" in English.

Your addition of "the only" is eisegesis, not translation.

Etymology of the word God.
From Old Norse guð ("god"), from Proto-Germanic gudą. Cognate with the English word "god," and German Gott.

 

[CherubRam]

This argument has been shown to be false several times. It would do you well to stop posting it.

You keep saying that, but you offer no proof.

 

[Free]

You keep saying that, but you offer no proof.

Substantial proof has been given each time. That you prefer your unsubstantiated opinion over truth doesn’t mean evidence hasn’t been given.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe you are misunderstanding that. According to your line of thinking, you are saying that the Son of Man was in heaven existing as God (YHWH) but from heaven God said that He is not a son of man. He said He would not lie or change His mind about these facts.

Numbers 23​

19God is not a man, that He should lie,​

or a son of man, that He should change His mind.​

Does He speak and not act?​

Does He promise and not fulfill?​

Therefore, the correct interpretation of what you're referring to is in regards to Jesus non literally existing in heaven except for in the mind of, the foreknowledge of, the Logos of, God. This is the best and only way to remove the contractions like the one you introduced above. Jesus existed in heaven in the logos of God (in the bosom or heart of God) and then came down to earth where God's plans manifested by creating a man. (John 1:1-14)


YHWH and Jesus are not the same person. Here is just one clear example of this.

The Lord (Jesus) is at the LORD's(YHWH) right hand.

Psalm 110
1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”


What is your definition of the word "form" in the above passage? Do you consider it to be the outward appearance or shape like Greek lexicons say?

Nope. I understand Christian doctrine. Its not according to my line of thinking, its taught in scripture.

You object to the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation of Christ and the hypostatic unition of His two natures in the One Person of Yahweh the Son.

You quote Numbers for proof. But that text says God can’t lie like men, it says nothing about whether God can be incarnate in human flesh and still be God in heaven.

The logical fallacy causing you to err is caused by the “undistributed middle”, nothing in the text is relevant to the question.

Numbers isn’t discussing God’s Being, who in what way He can manifest Himself.

God is contrasting Himself to men, unlike men who lie and change their minds often, God does not.

Therefore, the text is irrelevant to the question of what forms God can manifest Himself in. Nothing is impossible for God.

AND I cited a text that shows Yahweh in the form of a man with two other “men” and He ate and drank a meal Abraham prepared:

NKJ Genesis 18:1 Then the LORD [Yahweh] appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.

2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
4 "Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree.
5 "And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant." They said, "Do as you have said."
6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, "Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes."
7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it.
8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate. (Gen. 18:1-8 NKJ)


Yahweh never ceased to be God in heaven even while He was there eating cakes with Abraham on earth. Whether the “three men” were angels or actual men is not revealed in this context, but God was present in one of them even while He remained God in heaven holding all things together.



The Greek Word translated “form” (3444 μορφή) in Phil. 2:5-8 isn’t referring to a physical form:

Meaning: 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision 2) external appearance-Strong's


The “form of God” is a "sinking into the realm of the finite creature, a presence that is visible. The infinite substance of God enters the dimension of the finite creature, but does not actually move from one place to another. Its a "localization" finite creatures can see, and hear but it isn't a "body" like ours or the angels.

Its not holographic, it really is God's Substance made into a visible "form". Recall at Jesus' Baptism, the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a Dove.

Perhaps water can be used to illustrate this concept. Imagine God is made of water, an infinite Ocean of Water but it exists in a dimension all around us, but we cannot see or feel it.

It cannot be contained in any place, even heaven and heavens of heavens aren't big enough (1 Ki. 8:28).

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! (1 Ki. 8:27 NKJ)

So how might God localize a "presence" for finite creatures in heaven, or on earth can see?

Water can manifest itself in various forms, Steam or Cloud or Ice or water.

If God localized some water as a "cloud" or "ice" that people can see, that would be God's "morphe form".

 

[Alfred Persson]

Etymology of the word God.
From Old Norse guð ("god"), from Proto-Germanic gudą. Cognate with the English word "god," and German Gott.

Good thing our bibles were not translated for old Norse and Proto Germanic people to read.

 

[Runningman]

Nope. I understand Christian doctrine. Its not according to my line of thinking, its taught in scripture.

You object to the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation of Christ and the hypostatic unition of His two natures in the One Person of Yahweh the Son.

You quote Numbers for proof. But that text says God can’t lie like men, it says nothing about whether God can be incarnate in human flesh and still be God in heaven.

If God was a man He would be capable of lying, which is why God is not a man that He should lie. God who cannot lie is never a man, never was a man, never will be a man; God cannot lie, but men can lie. God cannot even be tempted, but Jesus was tempted in every way.

Hebrews 6
18Thus by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be strongly encouraged.

The logical fallacy causing you to err is caused by the “undistributed middle”, nothing in the text is relevant to the question.

Numbers isn’t discussing God’s Being, who in what way He can manifest Himself.

God is contrasting Himself to men, unlike men who lie and change their minds often, God does not.

Therefore, the text is irrelevant to the question of what forms God can manifest Himself in. Nothing is impossible for God.

Therefore God is not a man. If God was a man then He could theoretically lie couldn't He? You're close to seeing what the scripture is saying I think.

AND I cited a text that shows Yahweh in the form of a man with two other “men” and He ate and drank a meal Abraham prepared:

NKJ Genesis 18:1 Then the LORD [Yahweh] appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.

2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
4 "Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree.
5 "And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant." They said, "Do as you have said."
6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, "Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes."
7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it.
8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate. (Gen. 18:1-8 NKJ)

God isn't three men. See above.

Yahweh never ceased to be God in heaven even while He was there eating cakes with Abraham on earth. Whether the “three men” were angels or actual men is not revealed in this context, but God was present in one of them even while He remained God in heaven holding all things together.

That's an unwarranted assumption not supported by the scripture. We should try not to project an idea into the Bible that isn't supported and contradicts God being a man.

The Greek Word translated “form” (3444 μορφή) in Phil. 2:5-8 isn’t referring to a physical form:

Meaning: 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision 2) external appearance-Strong's


The “form of God” is a "sinking into the realm of the finite creature, a presence that is visible. The infinite substance of God enters the dimension of the finite creature, but does not actually move from one place to another. Its a "localization" finite creatures can see, and hear but it isn't a "body" like ours or the angels.

Its not holographic, it really is God's Substance made into a visible "form". Recall at Jesus' Baptism, the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a Dove.

Perhaps water can be used to illustrate this concept. Imagine God is made of water, an infinite Ocean of Water but it exists in a dimension all around us, but we cannot see or feel it.

It cannot be contained in any place, even heaven and heavens of heavens aren't big enough (1 Ki. 8:28).

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! (1 Ki. 8:27 NKJ)

So how might God localize a "presence" for finite creatures in heaven, or on earth can see?

Water can manifest itself in various forms, Steam or Cloud or Ice or water.

If God localized some water as a "cloud" or "ice" that people can see, that would be God's "morphe form".

All Greek lexicons correctly define morphé as the form, shape, or outward appearance. God is invisible, Jesus is not invisible, hence he is in the form of God. Obviously that refers to godliness, righteousness, holiness, etc. Being godly, righteous, holy is something all Christians should be doing, hence why Phil. 2:5 says "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:"

G3444. morphé
Strong's Concordance
morphé: form, shape
Original Word: μορφή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: morphé
Phonetic Spelling: (mor-fay')
Definition: form, shape
Usage: form, shape, outward appearance.

You may also see Mark 16:12 where morphé clearly refers to the visual appearance:

12After this, Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them as they walked along in the country.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If God was a man He would be capable of lying, which is why God is not a man that He should lie. God who cannot lie is never a man, never was a man, never will be a man; God cannot lie, but men can lie. God cannot even be tempted, but Jesus was tempted in every way.

Hebrews 6
18Thus by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be strongly encouraged.



Therefore God is not a man. If God was a man then He could theoretically lie couldn't He? You're close to seeing what the scripture is saying I think.


God isn't three men. See above.


That's an unwarranted assumption not supported by the scripture. We should try not to project an idea into the Bible that isn't supported and contradicts God being a man.


All Greek lexicons correctly define morphé as the form, shape, or outward appearance. God is invisible, Jesus is not invisible, hence he is in the form of God. Obviously that refers to godliness, righteousness, holiness, etc. Being godly, righteous, holy is something all Christians should be doing, hence why Phil. 2:5 says "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:"

G3444. morphé
Strong's Concordance
morphé: form, shape
Original Word: μορφή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: morphé
Phonetic Spelling: (mor-fay')
Definition: form, shape
Usage: form, shape, outward appearance.

You may also see Mark 16:12 where morphé clearly refers to the visual appearance:

12After this, Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them as they walked along in the country.

Repeating a logically flawed argument doesn't fix it. God is not explaining His divine nature, therefore you are taking His words out of context.

15 And he said to Balak, "Stand here by your burnt offering while I meet the LORD over there."
16 Then the LORD met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth, and said, "Go back to Balak, and thus you shall speak."
17 So he came to him, and there he was, standing by his burnt offering, and the princes of Moab were with him. And Balak said to him, "What has the LORD spoken?"
18 Then he took up his oracle and said: "Rise up, Balak, and hear! Listen to me, son of Zippor!
19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
20 Behold, I have received a command to bless; He has blessed, and I cannot reverse it. (Num. 23:15-20 NKJ)

King Balak is being contradicted by God, gold and offerings will not cause Him to curse Israel, unlike men He cannot be bribed to lie.


This has NOTHING to do with God's Infinite Being, or His ability to manifest a theophany localizing His presence. Or causing His presence to dwell in a localized place like in the "angel of the LORD", the pillar of fire or clouds that led Israel in the Wilderness, or was in the Holy of Holies of the Tent of meeting and later the Temple.

Just as you can phone-call your parents in another city and this wouldn't prove you aren't human, the middle term is undistributed, so also God telling Balak He cannot be bribed into cursing Israel, not keeping His promises---lying like men do..... does not prove anything about God's Being.

It rather proves His character is impeccable.

THAT God is One Infinite Being subsisting in Three Divine Persons, is the point He made in Genesis 18:

Yahweh appeared to Abraham, in THREE Men:

1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, (Gen. 18:1-2 NKJ)

The text never says one of them was Yahweh and the other two angels, that eisegesis people read into the text. It says Yahweh appeared, and Abraham's eyes beheld three men.

If you wanted to be a mechanic, you would learn from other mechanics. Otherwise, a trial of badly fixed cars would follow you wherever you go, until finally, after years of trial and error, you get it right.

By what law of logic can you be a Theologian, or Teacher of God's Nature, when you haven't taken the time to learn from other Theologians, or Christian Teachers? A trail of heretical opinion follows you, and your post here is proof.

Why should it take decades to get it right?

Go to any Christian book store and ask for materials explaining, in laymen terms, how the Bible teaches the Christian Doctrine of the Holy Trinity.


PS: "Form" has a range of meaning, which includes how Jesus appeared in another form, and the "form of God" that was an appearance of the Divine Substance in a form finite creatures can see, in a locality of God's choosing.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If God was a man He would be capable of lying, which is why God is not a man that He should lie. God who cannot lie is never a man, never was a man, never will be a man; God cannot lie, but men can lie. God cannot even be tempted, but Jesus was tempted in every way.

Straw man fallacy, a very deceptive way to claim victory.

No one ever said God is a man.

That you were barely able to beat up that easily defeated "straw man", is nothing to brag about.

In some venues, there would be laughter.

 

[Runningman]

Repeating a logically flawed argument doesn't fix it. God is not explaining His divine nature, therefore you are taking His words out of context.

15 And he said to Balak, "Stand here by your burnt offering while I meet the LORD over there."
16 Then the LORD met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth, and said, "Go back to Balak, and thus you shall speak."
17 So he came to him, and there he was, standing by his burnt offering, and the princes of Moab were with him. And Balak said to him, "What has the LORD spoken?"
18 Then he took up his oracle and said: "Rise up, Balak, and hear! Listen to me, son of Zippor!
19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
20 Behold, I have received a command to bless; He has blessed, and I cannot reverse it. (Num. 23:15-20 NKJ)

King Balak is being contradicted by God, gold and offerings will not cause Him to curse Israel, unlike men He cannot be bribed to lie.


This has NOTHING to do with God's Infinite Being, or His ability to manifest a theophany localizing His presence. Or causing His presence to dwell in a localized place like in the "angel of the LORD", the pillar of fire or clouds that led Israel in the Wilderness, or was in the Holy of Holies of the Tent of meeting and later the Temple.

Just as you can phone-call your parents in another city and this wouldn't prove you aren't human, the middle term is undistributed, so also God telling Balak He cannot be bribed into cursing Israel, not keeping His promises---lying like men do..... does not prove anything about God's Being.

It rather proves His character is impeccable.

THAT God is One Infinite Being subsisting in Three Divine Persons, is the point He made in Genesis 18:

Yahweh appeared to Abraham, in THREE Men:

1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, (Gen. 18:1-2 NKJ)

The text never says one of them was Yahweh and the other two angels, that eisegesis people read into the text. It says Yahweh appeared, and Abraham's eyes beheld three men.

If you wanted to be a mechanic, you would learn from other mechanics. Otherwise, a trial of badly fixed cars would follow you wherever you go, until finally, after years of trial and error, you get it right.

By what law of logic can you be a Theologian, or Teacher of God's Nature, when you haven't taken the time to learn from other Theologians, or Christian Teachers? A trail of heretical opinion follows you, and your post here is proof.

Why should it take decades to get it right?

Go to any Christian book store and ask for materials explaining, in laymen terms, how the Bible teaches the Christian Doctrine of the Holy Trinity.


PS: "Form" has a range of meaning, which includes how Jesus appeared in another form, and the "form of God" that was an appearance of the Divine Substance in a form finite creatures can see, in a locality of God's choosing.

Straw man fallacy, a very deceptive way to claim victory.

No one ever said God is a man.

That you were barely able to beat up that easily defeated "straw man", is nothing to brag about.

In some venues, there would be laughter.

Well, let's agree to disagree instead of going in circles. I am just going to stick with what the Bible says. You're free to go your way if you wish. My door is open if you want to learn more about who God and Jesus are according to scripture.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Well, let's agree to disagree instead of going in circles. I am just going to stick with what the Bible says. You're free to go your way if you wish. My door is open if you want to learn more about who God and Jesus are according to scripture.

What? You claimed God couldn't manifest Himself as a man, I showed you Scripture where God manifested Himself as three men, and now you want to run away?

Yahweh appeared to Abraham, in THREE Men:

1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, (Gen. 18:1-2 NKJ)




“ Yhwh manifested Himself () to Abraham amidst the trees of Mamre while Abraham was sitting at the entrance of his tent, at the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and saw three men coming toward him” (Genesis 18.1– 2). The juxtaposition of these two sentences (which are from a single Pentateuchal source implies that Yhwh appears in the form of three men, or at least in the form of one of the three men.-Sommer, Benjamin D.. The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (p. 40). Cambridge University Press. Kindle Edition.

Benjamin D. Sommer is Professor in the Department of Bible and Ancient Semitic Languages at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America.

 

[Runningman]

What? You claimed God couldn't manifest Himself as a man, I showed you Scripture where God manifested Himself as three men, and now you want to run away?

God is not a man. The Bible doesn't say that even one time.

Here's a question for you.. do you think a human being worshipped as God is idolatry?

Yahweh appeared to Abraham, in THREE Men:

1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, (Gen. 18:1-2 NKJ)

That doesn't say YHWH appeared as three men. YHWH appearing and three men standing there can coexist without one canceling out the other. Read it again, slowly. You should also be aware that God said He isn't a man so your interpretation doesn't work.

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that He should lie,
or a son of man, that He should change His mind.
Does He speak and not act?
Does He promise and not fulfill?

“ Yhwh manifested Himself () to Abraham amidst the trees of Mamre while Abraham was sitting at the entrance of his tent, at the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and saw three men coming toward him” (Genesis 18.1– 2). The juxtaposition of these two sentences (which are from a single Pentateuchal source implies that Yhwh appears in the form of three men, or at least in the form of one of the three men.-Sommer, Benjamin D.. The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (p. 40). Cambridge University Press. Kindle Edition.

Benjamin D. Sommer is Professor in the Department of Bible and Ancient Semitic Languages at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America.

I disagree with him.

 

[Alfred Persson]

God is not a man. The Bible doesn't say that even one time.

Here's a question for you.. do you think a human being worshipped as God is idolatry?


That doesn't say YHWH appeared as three men. YHWH appearing and three men standing there can coexist without one canceling out the other. Read it again, slowly. You should also be aware that God said He isn't a man so your interpretation doesn't work.

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that He should lie,
or a son of man, that He should change His mind.
Does He speak and not act?
Does He promise and not fulfill?





I disagree with him.

No, you disagree with Scripture even a non Christian Jewish Scholar admits it says Yahweh appeared to Abraham, in THREE Men:

1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, (Gen. 18:1-2 NKJ)

This is a clear revelation of God, Yahweh is a compound "One", in three Divine Persons:

"Hear, O Israel: Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one (0259 אֶחָד 'echad)! (Deut. 6:4 NKJ)

In the One Name of God, Yahweh is His Name, are three divine Persons: Father Son and Holy Spirit and this truth is so important, believers are baptized in this divine revelation:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matt. 28:19 NKJ)

Cognitive Dissonance caused your desire to run away. You can repent and believe the Scriptures, that is far better.

 

[Runningman]

No, you disagree with Scripture even a non Christian Jewish Scholar admits it says Yahweh appeared to Abraham, in THREE Men:

1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, (Gen. 18:1-2 NKJ)

This is a clear revelation of God, Yahweh is a compound "One", in three Divine Persons:

Your premise is that God is three men and then you quote a passage where there are three men. Gen 18:1,2 doesn't say what you're saying. Please read it again and quote the part that says what your commentary says.

"Hear, O Israel: Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one (0259 אֶחָד 'echad)! (Deut. 6:4 NKJ)

And Jesus is not God.

Psalm 110:1
1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”

In the One Name of God, Yahweh is His Name, are three divine Persons: Father Son and Holy Spirit and this truth is so important, believers are baptized in this divine revelation:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matt. 28:19 NKJ)

Cognitive Dissonance caused your desire to run away. You can repent and believe the Scriptures, that is far better.

None of your verses say "In the One Name of God, Yahweh is His Name, are three divine Persons: Father Son and Holy Spirit and this truth is so important, believers are baptized in this divine revelation:"

Let's be clear, that is your belief but it isn't what the Bible actually says. Decorating your theology with Bible verses doesn't make it Biblical. Can you see that?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Your premise is that God is three men and then you quote a passage where there are three men. Gen 18:1,2 doesn't say what you're saying. Please read it again and quote the part that says what your commentary says.


And Jesus is not God.

Psalm 110:1
1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”



None of your verses say "In the One Name of God, Yahweh is His Name, are three divine Persons: Father Son and Holy Spirit and this truth is so important, believers are baptized in this divine revelation:"

Let's be clear, that is your belief but it isn't what the Bible actually says. Decorating your theology with Bible verses doesn't make it Biblical. Can you see that?

Yahweh appeared to Abraham, in THREE Men:

1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, (Gen. 18:1-2 NKJ)

Later, Yahweh on earth rained fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from Yahweh in Heaven:

And Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven, (Gen. 19:24 DBY)

At Jesus' Baptism, Yahweh appears in three forms, a voice from heaven, a dove, and Jesus:

And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased." (Lk. 3:22 NKJ)

Behold, Yahweh the Almighty is coming, the Alpha and Omega...."I Jesus"

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:7-8 NKJ)

13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
...
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." (Rev. 22:13-16 NKJ)


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

 

[Runningman]

Yahweh appeared to Abraham, in THREE Men:

1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, (Gen. 18:1-2 NKJ)

Later, Yahweh on earth rained fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from Yahweh in Heaven:

And Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven, (Gen. 19:24 DBY)

At Jesus' Baptism, Yahweh appears in three forms, a voice from heaven, a dove, and Jesus:

And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased." (Lk. 3:22 NKJ)

Behold, Yahweh the Almighty is coming, the Alpha and Omega...."I Jesus"

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:7-8 NKJ)

13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
...
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." (Rev. 22:13-16 NKJ)


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob therefore he isn't God. I hope this helps.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.