THE GREAT I AM

[journeymanisnothing]

I see, it shows in the scripture He demonstrates the fruit of the Spirit.

Exactly! When compared to his teachings, fruit is a perfect example of why Jesus is God,

the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine.....I am the vine, ye are the branches Jn.15:4-5

He's the Source of all life.

 

[Alfred Persson]

In discussing the Trinity the I AM said by Jesus always comes up.

What did Jesus mean by saying:



John 8:42.....
“If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45“But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46“Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
48The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
49Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
50“But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
52The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’
53“Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?”
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;
55and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.



Is this not sufficient to show that Jesus believed He existed before the incarnation?
Why would the Jews have wanted to stone Him for saying this?
Does this statement by Jesus prove that John 1:1 is correct?



John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Christ's meaning can be inferred from a parallel text, where ἐγώ εἰμι appears without a predicate unlike "I am the light Jn. 8:12; I am from above Jn. 8:23:

Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [He], and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. (Jn. 8:28 NKJ)

They would know "He" is the Messiah, prophesied to suffer and die for the sins of the nation.

Therefore, Christ's intent in in our target text is clear. He contrasts Abraham who "came into existence"(Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι), to Himself as having no beginning, which is true only of God.

Christ is precise in both texts, just as John 8:28 revealed He is the suffering servant of Isaiah, "Before Abrahm came into existence" is revealing He is the "I AM", that He "already WAS" (Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος John 1:1) existing "in the beginning when God created all things"; That is true only of God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Runningman,

I don't believe Abraham literally saw Jesus' day. There aren't any examples of Jesus having a day in the Old Testament, that I am aware of, but there are plenty prophecies regarding him coming in the future.

Yes, I agree with you here. I do not believe that any of the "Theophanies" was a pre-existent Jesus, but they were Angels representing the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. I consider that Jesus is speaking of Abraham foreseeing what Jesus would be like in his ministry, and in his death and resurrection.

I don't believe seeing is always literally visually looking at something with your eyes. For example, in Hebrews 11 they died without having received their promise even though they still saw them. It's about faith. Abraham saw the prophecies of Jesus' day in faith.
Hebrews 11: 13 All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Yes. I also consider that Jesus could be alluding to the following:
Genesis 22:11–14 (KJV): 11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

Abraham recognised that what he had encountered with Isaac foreshadowed the Offering of Jesus in his death and resurrection. Jesus would be the Lamb whom God provided:
Genesis 22:7–8 (KJV): 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

I suggest that based on the above conclusion, that Jesus was speaking about Abraham's faith, in looking forward to the day of Christ, then the response of the Pharisees is either a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters, or they simply did not understand what Jesus was saying:
John 8:56–57 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
I suggest that this has a direct bearing on a proper understanding of John 8:58. Jesus is not speaking about his pre-existence, but he is speaking about Abraham's faith and Jesus' role as the Messiah. Hence the correct translation is "I am he". Jesus was in the plan and purpose of God before Abraham came into existence, and he is greater than Abraham.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

In my humble view, it seems to not mesh well with what God said about Himself as the I AM in Exodus 3. Jesus is not known as YHWH, the God of their fathers, or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob nor did God say His name would forever be Jesus, Yeshua, Yahoshua, Christ, Messiah, Son, etc or wanted to be remembered that way.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD,[YHWH] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

Do you believe the Angel of the Lord is God the Father or God the Son?

The progression of understanding is:

The Angel of the LORD
The LORD
God

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

JLB

 

[Runningman]

Greetings again Runningman,

Yes, I agree with you here. I do not believe that any of the "Theophanies" was a pre-existent Jesus, but they were Angels representing the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. I consider that Jesus is speaking of Abraham foreseeing what Jesus would be like in his ministry, and in his death and resurrection.

Yes. I also consider that Jesus could be alluding to the following:
Genesis 22:11–14 (KJV): 11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

Abraham recognised that what he had encountered with Isaac foreshadowed the Offering of Jesus in his death and resurrection. Jesus would be the Lamb whom God provided:
Genesis 22:7–8 (KJV): 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

I suggest that based on the above conclusion, that Jesus was speaking about Abraham's faith, in looking forward to the day of Christ, then the response of the Pharisees is either a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters, or they simply did not understand what Jesus was saying:
John 8:56–57 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
I suggest that this has a direct bearing on a proper understanding of John 8:58. Jesus is not speaking about his pre-existence, but he is speaking about Abraham's faith and Jesus' role as the Messiah. Hence the correct translation is "I am he". Jesus was in the plan and purpose of God before Abraham came into existence, and he is greater than Abraham.

Kind regards
Trevor

Yes I agree with all of that. It's an astute observation that you caught the fact that they attempted to put words in Jesus mouth, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" It seems to amount to gaslighting and possibly attempting to bait him into a strawman argument. Jesus didn't take the bait and maintained control of the flow and direction of the dialogue.

I also agree with your proposed translation of John 8:58 being, "I am he." Another possible translation would be "I am the one" or "I am the man." This is how ego eimi is typically translated in the New Testament because simply ending a sentence with the primary clause "I am" is considered an unconventional sentence structure and it isn't how Jesus or anyone talks in the Bible. The awkward way John 8:58 is typically translated may be an indicator of some possible tampering.

You can see Mark 13:6 and Luke 21:8 where ego eimi is translated as "I am he" in accordance with your suggestion.

Mark 13
6Many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many.

Luke 21
8Jesus answered, “See to it that you are not deceived. For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them.

 

[Runningman]

Do you believe the Angel of the Lord is God the Father or God the Son?

The progression of understanding is:

The Angel of the LORD
The LORD
God

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

• “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

JLB

I would say any reference to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a reference to God the Father and any reference to Jesus or the Son is a reference to God the Father's servant.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus. You handed Him over and rejected Him before Pilate, even though he had decided to release Him.

 

[JLB]

I would say any reference to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a reference to God the Father and any reference to Jesus or the Son is a reference to God the Father's servant.

My question is…:

Do you believe the Angel of the LORD is a reference to God the Father?

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Exodus 3:1-2



JLB

 

[Runningman]

My question is…:

Do you believe the Angel of the LORD is a reference to God the Father?

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Exodus 3:1-2



JLB

I read "Angel of the LORD" like two different persons being referred to.

Person 1 = Angel
of
Person 2 = the LORD

I think the angel is someone else aside from the LORD and therefore not God. The passage isn't perfectly clear where one thought begins and one ends, but the idea I see is that God and an angel are present. I am sure there is more than one way to understand that passage. How do you see it?

 

[Free]

Greetings Runningman, Free and journeyman,

Yes, we need to carefully consider the context on each occasion. Could I ask you and others, how do you understand the following. What is Jesus saying and referring to when he said that Abraham "rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad"? Does this have a significant bearing on what happened next and what Jesus states in John 8:58?
John 8:56 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

It could mean a couple of things. It could be referring to the birth of Isaac and Abraham recognizing the fulfillment of God's promise. It could also be referring to the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son. It could also be referring to the coming of the Messiah and kingdom of God. It could possibly even mean that Abraham saw the birth of Jesus and rejoiced. It could be something else or all of the above.

Whatever it means, it's a reference to time. Jesus said Abraham saw him, but the Jews turned that around by asking if Jesus had seen Abraham. It seems then, that the Jews were reasoning that if Abraham saw Jesus, Jesus must have seen Abraham. Yet, there were around 2000 years separating the two of them; hence their question, prefaced by "You are not yet fifty years old." Jesus responds by stating that even before Abraham's existence, he had absolute existence.

You keep on insisting that the "he" is not in the Greek text and as such inferring that it is WRONG to in any way insert it.

If you're saying that I'm saying it is always wrong to insert 'he' into the English text, then, no, that is not what I am saying. Context determines whether it can or should be added. The issue arises when it is added and it changes the meaning of the text.

But the KJV translators saw the necessity to add the "he" in both John 8:24 and John 8:28 in the immediate context in order to smoothly translate from the Greek to the English.

While they added "he" to verse 24, it is unnecessary to smooth out the English and changes the meaning. It would be preferable to just let the Greek speak for itself. In verse 28 it isn't needed either. In both cases, it changes the meaning from I Am (God's name) to I am the Messiah.

They also added the "he" to both of the following and I consider that this demonstrates that the meaning in these particular contexts demand the addition of "he" and in some Bible versions they simply add "he" in this context, suggesting that the Greek is different to our usual English expression:
John 4:25–26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

John 9:8–9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
The first reference is part of the theme of whether Jesus is the Christ or not, and the second proves that the addition of "he" is not altering the Greek text, but is necessary to properly understand the expression in English.

Yes, in these cases it makes sense and doesn't change the meaning of what is being said. All you are showing here is what I agree with--context determines meaning and in certain contexts, adding a word brings clarification to the English.

I am among those that believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, not God the Son.

When do you think the Son came into being? Did the Son exist prior to the man Jesus? What is a son?

I also believe that the context of John 8:58 helps to accept that Jesus is stating "I am he", that is the Christ.

Except that doesn't make sense grammatically with the rest of the verse nor does it answer the question of the Jews.

Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

The Jews misquote Jesus, or perhaps ask rhetorically, if he has seen Abraham. This is a question of age. If, in verse 58, Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am he," it's very awkward grammatically and doesn't answer the question. The best reading is simply what the Greek states: "I am." What Jesus is doing is answering who he is (verse 53) which affirms that he has indeed seen Abraham. Jesus is comparing the former, limited existence of Abraham with his absolute existence as the Son.

Again, it is best to just let the Greek speak for itself. A plain reading of the text shows that "he" isn't necessary.

First I like the interesting spelling, historical, but also it reminds us by "wilbe" that "will be" is one verb. But mainly the context is that God would be with Moses to help him deliver Israel out of Egypt and into the promised land. God had already proclaimed his existence in and through the burning bush, and the words are in the English present tense. But here God is stating what he is about to accomplish. Exodus 3:12 translates the same word as "I will be". Many scholars teach that the Hebrew tense here is best represented by the English future tense.

Yet, that isn't necessarily the case. The word in Hebrew is 'ehyeh, and is in the imperfect tense. All that means it is an incomplete condition.

https://uhg.readthedocs.io/en/latest/verb_imperfect.html

To me, God saying his name is "I will be" is fairly abstract and doesn't really say much at all about God. His name should communicate something to us about who he is.

For God to say that his name is "I Am," communicates something significant, which leads to other things that we can actually know about him. It's a name that indicates he is a necessary being, that he has absolute self-existence. That instantly puts him above every other god.

Jesus reveals God the Father, but I do not accept that Jesus is God the Son. I believe that he is the Son of God, a human, now exalted to sit at the right hand of God in God the Father's throne, and Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Yet, John reveals the Son, the preincarnate Word, to be God in nature, having been in intimate relationship and union with God prior to anything ever having been created. That is what the very first three verses of John's gospel tell us. Every single thing he states about Jesus or records Jesus saying, must have that as its foundation. It's rather the whole point of his prologue--to introduce us to the Son of God (a title indicating deity).

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

Jesus responds by stating that even before Abraham's existence, he had absolute existence.

I disagree that that is what Jesus is saying. I consider that Jesus is repeating "I am he", that is the Christ, the same as in John 8:24 and John 8:28.

If you're saying that I'm saying it is always wrong to insert 'he' into the English text, then, no, that is not what I am saying. Context determines whether it can or should be added. The issue arises when it is added and it changes the meaning of the text.

It is not "added", it is a, or the, correct translation of the Greek into English. To keep on saying it is added gives the wrong impression. John's continual quotation of Jesus and also the blind man, using these words in the sense "I am he" could well dismiss any possibility that the rendition "I Am" for John 8:58 is correct. I suggest that most Trinitarians base their claim on a misunderstanding of what the Jews stated, and what Jesus is claiming.

While they added "he" to verse 24, it is unnecessary to smooth out the English and changes the meaning. It would be preferable to just let the Greek speak for itself. In verse 28 it isn't needed either. In both cases, it changes the meaning from I Am (God's name) to I am the Messiah.

I am not sure if you meant verse 24, but in verse 28 Jesus is not claiming Divinity. I reject that "I Am" is God's Name. I consider that it is "I Will Be", "He will be".

When do you think the Son came into being? Did the Son exist prior to the man Jesus? What is a son?

Jesus came into existence at his conception/birth. He is a human. Jesus is the Son of God because God the Father was his father and Mary is his mother.

What Jesus is doing is answering who he is (verse 53) which affirms that he has indeed seen Abraham.

I do not accept that Jesus had seen Abraham.

To me, God saying his name is "I will be" is fairly abstract and doesn't really say much at all about God. His name should communicate something to us about who he is.

The context is about what He will do, not his existence. He was going to be with Moses to deliver Israel out of Egypt and bring them into the promised land. The word “ehyeh” that occurs in Exodus 3:14 is the same that occurs in the earlier statement in v12 rendered in the KJV “I will be”, and here most other translators also give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense in this context, but it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is associated with some future activity.

This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, “I will be with thee”, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this work of delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD (Yahweh) is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

Yet, John reveals the Son, the preincarnate Word, to be God in nature

I consider that "The Word" in John 1:1 is a personification, similar to the Wise Woman, Wisdom in Proverbs 8.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

I read "Angel of the LORD" like two different persons being referred to.

Person 1 = Angel
of
Person 2 = the LORD

I think the angel is someone else aside from the LORD and therefore not God. The passage isn't perfectly clear where one thought begins and one ends, but the idea I see is that God and an angel are present. I am sure there is more than one way to understand that passage. How do you see it?

The Angel of the LORD is God.

Not God the Father but God the Son; the only begotten of the Father.


And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2-6

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

The Angel of the LORD appeared to Moses and Moses was looking at Him. Plainly the scripture says Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look upon God.



There are other scriptures that reveal to us the Angel of the LORD as being God.


The story of Samson’s parents who encountered the Angel of the LORD.


And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:18-22


Gideon —


Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the LORD. So Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord GOD! For I have seen the Angel of the LORD face to face.” Judges 6:22


Hagar —


Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” And the Angel of the LORD said to her:
“Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has heard your affliction.
He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; Genesis 16:10-13



Zechariah 12:8 directly refers to the Angel of the LORD as God —


In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. Zechariah 12:8


There is more but I will wait for your response to this post.






JLB

 

[Runningman]

The Angel of the LORD is God.

Not God the Father but God the Son; the only begotten of the Father.


And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2-6

• And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

The Angel of the LORD appeared to Moses and Moses was looking at Him. Plainly the scripture says Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look upon God.



There are other scriptures that reveal to us the Angel of the LORD as being God.


The story of Samson’s parents who encountered the Angel of the LORD.


And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:18-22


Gideon —


Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the LORD. So Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord GOD! For I have seen the Angel of the LORD face to face.” Judges 6:22


Hagar —


Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” And the Angel of the LORD said to her:
“Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has heard your affliction.
He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; Genesis 16:10-13



Zechariah 12:8 directly refers to the Angel of the LORD as God —


In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. Zechariah 12:8


There is more but I will wait for your response to this post.






JLB

In this case I would see of as being defined as an association between two entities, typically one of belonging.

Entity 1 = Angel
of (belonging to)
Entity 2 = the LORD

The angel appearing and the LORD speaking doesn't presuppose the Angel is the LORD. They can both be present without the author clearly explaining that. I get it, we do only know as much as what the writer tells us, but perhaps the LORD needs no introduction, being omnipresent, He was already there in the first place.

On the other hand, the angel being a messenger, could just be speaking on behalf of God. I don't see a clear reason to believe the angel of the LORD is God.

 

[Free]

Greetings again Free,

I disagree that that is what Jesus is saying. I consider that Jesus is repeating "I am he", that is the Christ, the same as in John 8:24 and John 8:28.

But, again, how does that even make sense of what was asked and what he answers? Notice that in John 8:25, the Jews ask Jesus, "Who are you?" and in verse 53, "Are you greater than our father Abraham? And the prophets who died! Who do you make yourself out to be?" Then, in verse 57, they express the impossibility of Jesus having seen Abraham because of the separation of 2000 years.

If Jesus's response is "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am he," then what is he answering? He could be answering the questions in verses 25 and 53, but he cannot be answering the one in verse 57. Grammatically, it doesn't make sense to say "before Abraham was, I am he," because the former is about time and the latter is not; it doesn't answer how he could have seen Abraham. If, however, Jesus says, as the Greek states, "before Abraham was, I am," he answers all the questions--who he is, that he is greater than Abraham and the prophets who died, and how he could have seen Abraham. And contextually it makes sense, since I Am contrasts the temporary existence of Abraham to his timeless existence. Also contextually, by referring to himself with the name of God, he is claiming to be God, to be equal with the Father. Because of this, they want to stone him, which is the punishment for blasphemy.

It is not "added", it is a, or the, correct translation of the Greek into English.

Depending on the context, that is begging the question.

To keep on saying it is added gives the wrong impression. John's continual quotation of Jesus and also the blind man, using these words in the sense "I am he" could well dismiss any possibility that the rendition "I Am" for John 8:58 is correct. I suggest that most Trinitarians base their claim on a misunderstanding of what the Jews stated, and what Jesus is claiming.

Not at all. As I have shown, grammatically and contextually, it not only is unnecessary in John 8:58 (and verse 24) to add "he," it actually makes no sense.

I am not sure if you meant verse 24, but in verse 28 Jesus is not claiming Divinity. I reject that "I Am" is God's Name. I consider that it is "I Will Be", "He will be".

You can reject it if you want, but as I stated, "I Will Be" doesn't communicate anything to Moses or us about God, whereas "I Am" communicates something significant.

Jesus came into existence at his conception/birth. He is a human. Jesus is the Son of God because God the Father was his father and Mary is his mother.

So, you are saying the Son only refers to Jesus, who came into existence when born through Mary? What about the times Jesus said he came from heaven and possessed the glory of the Father prior to the creation of the earth?

Joh 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. (ESV)

Joh 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
Joh 12:45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.
Joh 12:46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
Joh 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. (ESV)

Joh 16:28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”
Joh 16:29 His disciples said, “Ah, now you are speaking plainly and not using figurative speech!
Joh 16:30 Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God.” (ESV)

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Joh 17:4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
...
Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
...
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. (ESV)

Based on Jesus's own words, I cannot see how anyone could deny that Jesus believed he existed, in some real way, prior to being born. Add to that passages such as John 1:1-18, 1 Cor 8:8, Phil 2:5-8, and Col 1:16-17, and the only logical conclusion is that Jesus existed prior to the creation of all things; from which it necessarily follows that he is truly God (in addition to being man).

I do not accept that Jesus had seen Abraham.

You don't have to, but a plain reading of the text suggests otherwise. Not only does Jesus not deny or try to correct the Jews, he states he is "I Am," which, as I pointed out, answers all questions and contrasts Abraham's temporary existence with his timeless existence.

The context is about what He will do, not his existence. He was going to be with Moses to deliver Israel out of Egypt and bring them into the promised land. The word “ehyeh” that occurs in Exodus 3:14 is the same that occurs in the earlier statement in v12 rendered in the KJV “I will be”, and here most other translators also give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense in this context, but it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is associated with some future activity.

This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, “I will be with thee”, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this work of delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV):
...
When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): ...
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

Remember, there is one tense used in both instances in Exo 3--the imperfect tense. It can be rendered either as present or future; it is an ongoing, unfinished action. It makes sense as future in verse 12 because God is clearly speaking of future things. However, in verse 14, God is giving his name to Moses, not speaking of future things. To translate it as "I Am that I Am" tells us something concrete about God; several concrete things, actually. It tells them he is self-existent and therefore eternal and immutable. This means he is absolutely faithful and can be trusted. Because it includes all time, it also means not only what he was at present, but what he had been and what he will be.

"I will be" doesn't make sense as a name--I will be...what? What will he be? Why should he be trusted if they didn't know who he was but only nebulously what he will be? It only refers to something future and not past or present, and so communicates nothing concrete or significant.

I consider that "The Word" in John 1:1 is a personification, similar to the Wise Woman, Wisdom in Proverbs 8.

Based on what though? Paul seems to think that it was the Son (see 1 Cor 8:6, Phil 2:5-8, and Col 1:16-17).

 

[gordon777]

Good, disputes, debate, contentions, its a sign of godliness by the moderators and those who run the forums.


Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

1 Corinthians 1: 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 

[JLB]

In this case I would see of as being defined as an association between two entities, typically one of belonging.

Entity 1 = Angel
of (belonging to)
Entity 2 = the LORD

The Angel of the LORD is one Entity; God

You are just making up nonsense.





Please read all the scriptures that I have presented on the Angel of the LORD being God.


Please respond with a rational reply.





JLB

 

[Runningman]

The Angel of the LORD is one Entity; God

You are just making up nonsense.





Please read all the scriptures that I have presented on the Angel of the LORD being God.


Please respond with a rational reply.





JLB

?

God is not His own messenger. What you're saying does not follow to it's conclusion because it's a non sequitur. An angel is a messenger or representative while GOD, LORD (meaning YHWH - God's personal name) is not an angel.

Additionally, the word of operates in the English language in such a way that, in this context, is defined as an association between two entities, typically one of belonging.

If you will take note of the below verse, you will see my point proven with the angel of the LORD and the LORD being two distinctly different persons.

Zechariah 1
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”
13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.
14Then the angel who was speaking with me said, “Proclaim this word: This is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion, 15but I am fiercely angry with the nations that are at ease. For I was a little angry, but they have added to the calamity

 

[Alfred Persson]

In discussing the Trinity the I AM said by Jesus always comes up.

What did Jesus mean by saying:



John 8:42.....
“If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45“But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46“Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
48The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
49Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
50“But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
52The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’
53“Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?”
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;
55and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.



Is this not sufficient to show that Jesus believed He existed before the incarnation?
Why would the Jews have wanted to stone Him for saying this?
Does this statement by Jesus prove that John 1:1 is correct?



John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I apologize, I only answered part of your question, that it was Christ's claim to be God and that is why they picked up stones to stone Him.

Christ didn't claim pre-existence at first. The Jews "twisted His words" to accuse Him:

56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

Jesus said Abraham prophetically saw His day was glad. They turn this around so it becomes a claim Christ saw Abraham, which He did not say.

To paraphrase verse 57: "you are only 50 years old, therefore we don't believe you have seen Abraham."

But rather than correct them "I didn't say I saw Abraham," He states precisely He existed before Abraham was, which is a claim to be God and why they picked up stones to stone Him, as they also did here:

30 "I and My Father are one."
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." (Jn. 10:30-33 NKJ)

 

[Runningman]

I apologize, I only answered Christ's did claim to be God and that is why they picked up stones to stone Him.

But, notice how they "twisted Christ's words to accuse Him":

He said Abraham prophetically saw His day was glad. They turn this around so it becomes a claim Christ saw Abraham, which He did not say.

To paraphrase verse 57: "you are only 50 years old, therefore we don't believe you have seen Abraham."

But rather than correct them "I didn't say I saw Abraham," He states precisely He existed before Abraham was, which is a claim to be God and why they picked up stones to stone Him, as they also did here:

30 "I and My Father are one."
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." (Jn. 10:30-33 NKJ)

Contrary to the accusations against him, Jesus said he's a man.

John 8
40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing.

 

[CherubRam]

"I am" can be a profound statement of being at best. The problem is this, it can be used by anyone. By the way, the term "I am" is not in the Hebrew language, it is AIT. (Assisting In Translation.)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Contrary to the accusations against him, Jesus said he's a man.

John 8
40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing.

Jesus has two natures, He is both God and man, even while He spoke on earth, He never ceased being God in Heaven:

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 NKJ)

No one has ascended to heaven and returned to teach God's Truth. The only One from Heaven now speaking on the earth is the Son of Man, and not only that, He never ceases to exist as God in heaven.

A parallel to this is seen here:

Then Yahweh rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from Yahweh out of the heavens. (Gen. 19:24).

Yahweh the Son is on earth, calling down fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from Yahweh the Father and Spirit in heaven.


Just as Jesus never ceased being God in heaven while He spoke to men on earth, so also Yahweh God the Son never ceased be in heaven, even as He appeared as a man to Abraham on earth:


1 Then Yahweh appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground
...

13 And Yahweh said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, `Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?'
14 "Is anything too hard for Yahweh?... (Gen. 18:1-14 NKJ)

Yahweh the Son was on earth with two angels, all three appeared as men to Abraham. But God the Holy Spirit identifies one of them, who ate and drank with Abraham, was Yahweh God Himself.

But being on earth with Abraham didn't mean God ceased to exist in heaven, He is omnipresent and can manifest a "theophany" or "form" anywhere He wants.

This is not a "hologram", its His actual real presence, His "Name". He manifests it anywhere He desires, like in the Temple, in the Holy of Holies:

for Thine eyes being open towards this house night and day, towards the place of which Thou hast said, My Name is there; to hearken unto the prayer which Thy servant prayeth towards this place. (1 Ki. 8:29 YLT)

Infinite Spirit Yahweh the Son localizes His presence to angels in heaven by manifesting a "form" of God. When Christ added to Himself human nature via the virgin birth of Christ, He never ceased to be infinite God in heaven. Rather, He "made Himself of no reputation" "emptying Himself of the prerogatives and privileges of being God, to appear as man on earth:

5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, (Phil. 2:5-8 YLT)

"the form of a servant having TAKEN (λαβών)" = an addition, not substitution. He added to Himself human nature via the virgin birth.

Therefore, when Jesus was conceived in Mary's Womb by Holy Spirit, the "sphere of infinite radius that is Yahweh the Son", became "centered" in the humanity of Jesus. Both natures, human and divine belong to the Person of Yahweh the Son, and He simultaneously exists in both.