Biblical Foreknowledge

[Alfred Persson]

Please explain this.

The famous critic of Christianity who notably cited the Calvinist doctrine of Reprobation as a reason for his opposition to Christianity is Bertrand Russell. Russell, a renowned British philosopher, logician, mathematician, and social critic, was known for his critical views on religion. In his famous essay "Why I Am Not a Christian," he explicitly criticized various aspects of Christianity, including the Calvinist doctrine of Reprobation.

 

[electedbyhim]

The famous critic of Christianity who notably cited the Calvinist doctrine of Reprobation as a reason for his opposition to Christianity is Bertrand Russell. Russell, a renowned British philosopher, logician, mathematician, and social critic, was known for his critical views on religion. In his famous essay "Why I Am Not a Christian," he explicitly criticized various aspects of Christianity, including the Calvinist doctrine of Reprobation.

What does a non Christian have to do with Christianity?

 

[Alfred Persson]

What does a non Christian have to do with Christianity?

Charles Darwin, if you recall, set in motion the strong delusion of "evolution." It could be argued his theory is the most effective tool against Christianity ever. Billions reject Christ because of this theory.

That's how a non Christian can affect Christianity:

"I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all of my friends, will be everlastingly punished.​

​

And this is a damnable doctrine.”-― Charles Darwin, The Autobiography of Charles Darwin, 1809–82​

However, Darwin started out as a Christian, but gradually lost his faith. There are reports he went back to it on his death bed, but some deny this.

Either way, its clear non-Christians can impact Christianity greatly.

 

[electedbyhim]

Charles Darwin, if you recall, set in motion the strong delusion of "evolution." It could be argued his theory is the most effective tool against Christianity ever. Billions reject Christ because of this theory.

That's how a non Christian can affect Christianity:

"I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all of my friends, will be everlastingly punished.​

​

And this is a damnable doctrine.”-― Charles Darwin, The Autobiography of Charles Darwin, 1809–82​

I disagree completely.

Gods written word is more powerful than sinful humans, especially the unregenerate.

These people you have cited were never really Christian, they were self-deceived.

Evolution has nothing on Gods written word.

However you are entitled to you own opinions.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I disagree completely.

Gods written word is more powerful than sinful humans, especially the unregenerate.

These people you have cited were never really Christian, they were self-deceived.

Evolution has nothing on Gods written word.

However you are entitled to you own opinions.

If you were right then "apologetics" wouldn't exist in Christianity. But it does, clearly rebutting your real premise.

Of course God's Word stands supreme, unaffected by anything in the world.

But people are fallen, easily deceived. And we shouldn't "stop giving answers for why we believe" and let the devil have the bull horn.

Thank God for Creationism, it was logical argument against evolution that convinced me to read the Bible. The Bible did the rest.

 

[Iconoclast]

You deleted the scriptures that proved every claim I made, and replied with your opinion.

Your scripture quote proved nothing at all. You are delusional if you think a quote proves your error.

Not exegesis on the cited scripture.

I already worked through that whole passage, you ignored it.

That is doing precisely the opposite of following scripture.

I am sorry, but you are not making sense.

 

[electedbyhim]

If you were right then "apologetics" wouldn't exist in Christianity. But it does, clearly rebutting your real premise.

Of course God's Word stands supreme, unaffected by anything in the world.

But people are fallen, easily deceived. And we shouldn't "stop giving answers for why we believe" and let the devil have the bull horn.

Thank God for Creationism, it was logical argument against evolution that convinced me to read the Bible. The Bible did the rest.

I do not understand a lot of what you post.

It is confusing at times.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Your scripture quote proved nothing at all. You are delusional if you think a quote proves your error.

Incorrect. Calvin's eisegesis rests upon God foreknowing sinners after the Fall, rather than people before the foundation of the world---before they were born or had done good or bad.

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph. 1:4 NKJ)

Scripture agrees with ME, not Calvin...he is wrong.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I do not understand a lot of what you post.

It is confusing at times.

Focus Factor

Amazon.com

 

[electedbyhim]

Focus Factor

Amazon.com

Perhaps you should stick to the topic instead of jumping around confusing people.

The topic is

Biblical Foreknowledge.​

 

[Alfred Persson]

Perhaps you should stick to the topic instead of jumping around confusing people.

The topic is

Biblical Foreknowledge.​

Focus Factor works. Things I've been doing the same way for years...after a few days of Focus Factor, new ways of doing it better became apparent. And I wasn't trying to do things different. I was thinking better, focused. try it, it works well.

And confusion ends when people don't read everything through their personal filter, but focus on the facts. That's what confuses people, facts don't agree with what they thought true.

 

[electedbyhim]

Focus Factor works. Things I've been doing the same way for years...after a few days of Focus Factor, new ways of doing it better became apparent. And I wasn't trying to do things different. I was thinking better, focused. try it, it works well.

And confusion ends when people don't read everything through their personal filter, but focus on the facts. That's what confuses people, facts don't agree with what they thought true.

If "Focus Factor" worked, you would stay on topic.

The topic is

Biblical Foreknowledge.​

 

[Alfred Persson]

Scholars are adept at veiling the simple answer to a question, burying it under thousands of words supposedly revealing nuances not apparent to the reader.

"On the street" its known as "the long con", baffle 'em with bullst so they don't see the hand emptying in their pocket.

Its a simple question we ask of Calvinists, "why do they contradict scripture? God foreknew and elected before the foundation of the world, before people were born or did good or bad. He foreknew them as "unfallen", with full intellectual capacity and free will. He knew them perfectly, and those who responded to His love, with love, He elected onto salvation. So why don't Calvinists believe the Holy Scripture?"

Calvin's eisegesis rests upon God foreknowing sinners after the Fall, rather than people before the foundation of the world---before they were born or had done good or bad.

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph. 1:4 NKJ)

God ordained all things work for the good of them that love Him:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (Rom. 8:28-33 NKJ)

9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." (1 Cor. 2:9 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

 

[electedbyhim]

Scholars are adept at veiling the simple answer to a question, burying it under thousands of words supposedly revealing nuances not apparent to the reader.

"On the street" its known as "the long con", baffle 'em with bullst so they don't see the hand emptying in their pocket.

Its a simple question we ask of Calvinists, "why do they contradict scripture? God foreknew and elected before the foundation of the world, before people were born or did good or bad. He foreknew them as "unfallen", with full intellectual capacity and free will. He knew them perfectly, and those who responded to His love, with love, He elected onto salvation. So why don't Calvinists believe the Holy Scripture?"

Calvin's eisegesis rests upon God foreknowing sinners after the Fall, rather than people before the foundation of the world---before they were born or had done good or bad.

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph. 1:4 NKJ)

God ordained all things work for the good of them that love Him:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (Rom. 8:28-33 NKJ)

9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." (1 Cor. 2:9 NKJ)

Calvin's eisegesis rests upon God foreknowing sinners after the Fall

So your saying the Lord did not know that His people would sin, or make sinful choices, before He chose them?

Is that correct?

These verse come to mind.

Psalms 139:15-16 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And intricately woven in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unshaped substance; And in Your book all of them were written The days that were formed for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So your saying the Lord did not know that His people would sin, or make sinful choices, before He chose them?

Is that correct?

These verse come to mind.

Psalms 139:15-16 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And intricately woven in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unshaped substance; And in Your book all of them were written The days that were formed for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

That straw man argument is absurd. Infinite God knows everything that could be, and everything that is. THAT proves the thesis God foreknew TWO versions of everyone who would exist if He created. 1)An unfallen version whose intellectual capacity and free will was undiminished. Upon learning who exactly God is, and His love for them, they responded with Love, an unselfish love...loving God for who He is, impeccably good. 2)The fallen version easily enslaved by sin and delusion, most of whom would be lost including those who, in unfallen circumstances loved God.

So God predestines those who loved Him, to be conformed to the image of His Son. God will not permit the Devil and Death have the victory over even one of His children.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (Rom. 8:28-33 NKJ)

55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 15:55-57 NKJ)


Those not predestined have equal opportunity to be saved, just as the Elect they must believe in Jesus for salvation. And God makes that possible via prevenient grace so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. The opportunity is universal, available to the entire kosmos ("world"):

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:14-18 NKJ)

So the dark Calvinist dogma of Reprobation, limited atonement etc. ad-nauseum, are to be rejected by all who love the truth of Scripture, above the medieval opinions of men.

 

[electedbyhim]

That straw man argument is absurd. Infinite God knows everything that could be, and everything that is. THAT proves the thesis God foreknew TWO versions of everyone who would exist if He created. 1)An unfallen version whose intellectual capacity and free will was undiminished. Upon learning who exactly God is, and His love for them, they responded with Love, an unselfish love...loving God for who He is, impeccably good. 2)The fallen version easily enslaved by sin and delusion, most of whom would be lost including those who, in unfallen circumstances loved God.

So God predestines those who loved Him, to be conformed to the image of His Son. God will not permit the Devil and Death have the victory over even one of His children.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (Rom. 8:28-33 NKJ)

55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 15:55-57 NKJ)


Those not predestined have equal opportunity to be saved, just as the Elect they must believe in Jesus for salvation. And God makes that possible via prevenient grace so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. The opportunity is universal, available to the entire kosmos ("world"):

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:14-18 NKJ)

So the dark Calvinist dogma of Reprobation, limited atonement etc. ad-nauseum, are to be rejected by all who love the truth of Scripture, above the medieval opinions of men.

Apologies, but I do not understand what you are trying to say.

 

[Iconoclast]

Incorrect. Calvin's eisegesis rests upon God foreknowing sinners after the Fall, rather than people before the foundation of the world---before they were born or had done good or bad.

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph. 1:4 NKJ)

Scripture agrees with ME, not Calvin...he is wrong.

Infralapsarianism is the majority view, in the Reformed world. It would not bother me one bit, if it was Supralapsarianism but I do not see as much support for that teaching. Did I quote Calvin?Why are you fixated upon him?

 

[Iconoclast]

That straw man argument is absurd. Infinite God knows everything that could be, and everything that is. THAT proves the thesis God foreknew TWO versions of everyone who would exist if He created. 1)An unfallen version whose intellectual capacity and free will was undiminished. Upon learning who exactly God is, and His love for them, they responded with Love, an unselfish love...loving God for who He is, impeccably good. 2)The fallen version easily enslaved by sin and delusion, most of whom would be lost including those who, in unfallen circumstances loved God.

So God predestines those who loved Him, to be conformed to the image of His Son. God will not permit the Devil and Death have the victory over even one of His children.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (Rom. 8:28-33 NKJ)

55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 15:55-57 NKJ)


Those not predestined have equal opportunity to be saved, just as the Elect they must believe in Jesus for salvation. And God makes that possible via prevenient grace so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. The opportunity is universal, available to the entire kosmos ("world"):

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:14-18 NKJ)

So the dark Calvinist dogma of Reprobation, limited atonement etc. ad-nauseum, are to be rejected by all who love the truth of Scripture, above the medieval opinions of men.

This foolish speculation and fairytale is not what we derive doctrine from. Is starts on a foundation of sand.
God was not concerned about being alone,lol
Free will does not exist
God was not worried about violating the imaginary"free will" idol
Calvary chapel pastors are on the fringe edge of the camp
Everyone does not have every opportunity "to join the elect"
This heretical idea has no basis in scripture at all.
Those who are elected by God are not some sort of club, that you join.
The unscriptural altar call, this is full of error.
If this is what you or anyone else uses as a main source of teaching, it is no wonder you do not understand the historic faith.

 

[electedbyhim]

Infralapsarianism is the majority view, in the Reformed world. It would not bother me one bit, if it was Supralapsarianism but I do not see as much support for that teaching. Did I quote Calvin?Why are you fixated upon him?

Wow, its been a long time since I have studied this.

I need to do a refresher.

Thank you.