How do Messianic Jews interpret Romans 11:7ff "All Israel is Saved" even those who died enemies of the Gospel?

[Alfred Persson]

If not Jacob's ladder, then what is this about? There's only records of the Holy Spirit descending upon him at his baptism and he himself ascending into heaven.

Didn't you read:
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. (Jn. 21:25 NKJ)

Jesus did MUCH MORE than recorded, He "blew everyone's mind" with the supernatural. Angels attending Him isn't as spectacular as raising Lazarus from the Dead, is it? Picture it in your mind, He commands they roll away the stone. Everyone thinks He is nuts. and He says, "Lazarus, come out!"

And He does! Still wrapped in burial cloths!

John and the other gospel writers were trying to communicate Jesus to us, who He is, what He taught. They selected events that accomplished that.

Bottom line. Jesus never lied. Never false prophesied. He said they would see angels ascending and descending, therefore THEY DID. Simple as that. Nothing mystical, no secret code. The gospel writers thought it sufficient to record Christ said this. It was an important part of the story about Nathanel.

Moreover, it seems to me, if anyone of them said "angles ascended and descended on Jesus today!" It just seems "redundant", so much about what He did was incredible enough.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Didn't you read:
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. (Jn. 21:25 NKJ)

Jesus did MUCH MORE than recorded, He "blew everyone's mind" with the supernatural. Angels attending Him isn't as spectacular as raising Lazarus from the Dead, is it? Picture it in your mind, He commands they roll away the stone. Everyone thinks He is nuts. and He says, "Lazarus, come out!"

And He does! Still wrapped in burial cloths!

John and the other gospel writers were trying to communicate Jesus to us, who He is, what He taught. They selected events that accomplished that.

Bottom line. Jesus never lied. Never false prophesied. He said they would see angels ascending and descending, therefore THEY DID. Simple as that. Nothing mystical, no secret code. The gospel writers thought it sufficient to record Christ said this. It was an important part of the story about Nathanel.

Moreover, it seems to me, if any one of them said "angles ascended and descended on Jesus today!" It just seems "redundant", so much about what He did was incredible enough.

So nothing to ascertain or corroborate this, not even any historical documents? Well that’s disappointing.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So nothing to ascertain or corroborate this, not even any historical documents? Well that’s disappointing.

Sola scriptura.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Don't misunderstand, there is no salvation apart from Christ. Everyone who dies without Christ, who have not committed eternal sins, who are not reprobate wicked, hear the gospel of Christ preached to them in Hades, and they can repent and believe, then live according to God in the Spirit waiting for the Resurrection to life:

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

All teaching of God must be proven by the Bible, and any Scripture contradicting a teaching, proves it is not of God. There is no hope of repentance from the grave and hell.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and with this the judgment:

When the body dies, the soul is judged by works. The righteous in Christ Jesus are present with the Lord, and the unrepented unrighteous are tormented in hell.

 

[Alfred Persson]

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

All teaching of God must be proven by the Bible, and any Scripture contradicting a teaching, proves it is not of God. There is no hope of repentance from the grave and hell.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and with this the judgment:

When the body dies, the soul is judged by works. The righteous in Christ Jesus are present with the Lord, and the unrepented unrighteous are tormented in hell.

The apostle Peter doesn't agree:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Being saved isn't a matter of luck, being born to the right parents in the right country in the right year. God makes sure all who live, hear the gospel of Christ and can choose life.

 

[Alfred Persson]

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

All teaching of God must be proven by the Bible, and any Scripture contradicting a teaching, proves it is not of God. There is no hope of repentance from the grave and hell.

More than a dozen scriptures disagree. Click the [#A] after each Bible reference for the exegesis:

Various Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity is explicit or implicit:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:3-6 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];[#Z]

And scripture never contradicts. If a scripture contradicts what YOU thought was a bible teaching, your teaching is not of God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The apostle Peter doesn't agree:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

The apostle doesn't disagree with the Bible. Your wrong reading of him does contradict the Bible.

There is no hope of finding truth after the grave.

Now you must join baptizing for souls after the grave, in order to believe they are also preached to.

Maybe departed souls are preached too, if they are baptized for?

Being saved isn't a matter of luck, being born to the right parents in the right country in the right year. God makes sure all who live, hear the gospel of Christ and can choose life.

So, that's your problem. "But what about those who have not heard?!" You can promote that accusing question against God all you wish. It's only demanded by hearers seeking to justify not repenting to do the truth themselves.

God has already made His answer justly:

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

 

[RBDERRICK]

And scripture never contradicts.

Correct. And there is always Scripture that cannot be read any other way. We either believe the words or don't.

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

No man has hope to find and do the truth after the grave. We do it now or never.

This one verse prejudges any and all later readings otherwise, as purposely skewed.

At a glace, I can see how you pervert Rev 20, where the rest of the dead are raised to be judged. Not to be preached to.

Anyone seeking a second chance to repent, but only dying and after seeing hell for themselves, are stiffnecked hearers that refuse to repent now today on earth.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

I have found it useful to know exactly where someone is coming from, in order to better understand how come people can keep banging their heads against a stone wall, that will not give in to their beatings against it.

Created christ believers do it against John 1:1, and you do so against Is 38:18:

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

No man has hope to find and do the truth after the grave. We do it now or never.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Now let's look at the rest of your stuff.

How do Messianic Jews interpret Romans 11:7. In my opinion it reflects the school of Hillel division of mankind into three groups, the Elect, the Intermediate, the Reprobate, which school Paul was from:

So seriously? Messianic Judaism is old Jewish traditions and fables still trusted for doctrine of God?

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

The true God sees only light or darkness. The lukewarm gray are spued over to the dark side, where they belong.

You and your old Jewish traditional fable makers preach the god that accepts darkness into light.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, “Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].

Is this an old fable source for Santa Clause?

At least Santa has enough integrity to make two lists of naught or nice. Not three of sort a like both.

Once again, the god of this world accepts all shades of gray:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

“The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] “Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] “If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] “If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death.”
...
[I.16 A] It has been taught on Tannaite authority:

The House of Shammai say, “[There will be] three groups on the Day of Judgment [when the dead will rise]: one comprised of the thoroughly righteous, one comprised of the thoroughly wicked, and one of middling [people].
[C] “The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for eternal life.
[D] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for Gehenna,
[E] “as it is written [Dan. 12:2]: ‘And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to eternal life and some to shame and everlasting contemPet.’
[F] “Middling [people] go down to Gehenna [17a], scream [in prayer], and rise [again],
[G] “as it is written [Zech. 13:9]: ‘And I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them.’
[H] “And, concerning this group, Hannah said [1 Sam. 2:6]: ‘The Lord kills and brings to life. He brings down to Sheol and raises up.’ ”
[The Hillelites reject the notion that the middling group initially is sent to Gehenna.] The House of Hillel say, “But [contrary to what the Shammaites hold, God] who abounds in mercy leans towards [a judgment of] mercy.
[J] “And concerning them [that is, the middling group] David said [Ps. 116:1]: ‘I love the Lord, because he has heard my voice [and my supplications].’
[K] “And [further] concerning them David stated the whole passage [which begins, Ps. 116:6]: ‘The Lord preserves the simple; when I was brought low, he saved me.’ ”
-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83-84). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.


7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
…
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:7-12:1 NKJ)


In other words, the Reprobate are lost eternally, but those of the Elect and Intermediate in context are “all Israel”, many of whom died unbelievers in Christ, enemies of the Gospel. But out of Zion comes their deliverer, who rescues them from Hades. That causes Paul to profusely praise God for His Mercy.

Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Don't misunderstand, there is no salvation apart from Christ.

Oh yes. I just love it when the moderates get all self-righteously indignant. "Do not misunderstand! I am not a compromiser!! I got standards!!... I just like to entertain all points of view..."

They hear Christ's voice in Hades, and all who obediently hear will rise to the resurrection of life:

The bodies will rise from the grave to be judged with their souls unto life or shame. Not preached to.

God's longsuffering mercy and pleading to the hardened that repent not, ends in the grave.

But after thy hardness and unrepentant heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

He won't be pleading nor hearing pleas when judged by works we have done in this life.

But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Proof Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans this life and the After-life God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20) As Christ alone is the Door to Salvation, what is the fate of those born before His time, or in...

endtimenews.net

 

[Alfred Persson]

The apostle doesn't disagree with the Bible. Your wrong reading of him does contradict the Bible.

There is no hope of finding truth after the grave.

Now you must join baptizing for souls after the grave, in order to believe they are also preached to.

Maybe departed souls are preached too, if they are baptized for?







So, that's your problem. "But what about those who have not heard?!" You can promote that accusing question against God all you wish. It's only demanded by hearers seeking to justify not repenting to do the truth themselves.

God has already made His answer justly:

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Prove I am reading it wrong. Your opinion isn't proof. Your words aren't scripture. I don't see "baptism for the dead" anywhere in my posts, you are confused.

Peter is very clear, the Gospel is preached ALSO to the dead that they be judged after they die---Just as Hebrews 9:27 says

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, (Heb. 9:27 NKJ)

As for Romans 2:12, we aren't under law.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Now let's look at the rest of your stuff.

So seriously? Messianic Judaism is old Jewish traditions and fables still trusted for doctrine of God?

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

The true God sees only light or darkness. The lukewarm gray are spued over to the dark side, where they belong.

You and your old Jewish traditional fable makers preach the god that accepts darkness into light.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!



Is this an old fable source for Santa Clause?

At least Santa has enough integrity to make two lists of naught or nice. Not three of sort a like both.

Once again, the god of this world accepts all shades of gray:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.



Oh yes. I just love it when the moderates get all self-righteously indignant. "Do not misunderstand! I am not a compromiser!! I got standards!!... I just like to entertain all points of view..."


The bodies will rise from the grave to be judged with their souls unto life or shame. Not preached to.

God's longsuffering mercy and pleading to the hardened that repent not, ends in the grave.

But after thy hardness and unrepentant heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

He won't be pleading nor hearing pleas when judged by works we have done in this life.

But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

What I see is a callous disregard for scripture, can't even give the Bible reference after a quote.

You opine there is no repentance after death in scripture. You are wrong according to the scriptures.

I supplied you with more than a dozen passages proving there is repentance after death.

Here they are again. Click the scripture reference for the verse, click the bracket [#] for commentary on the verse.

Various Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity is explicit or implicit:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:3-6 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];[#Z]

 

[RBDERRICK]

Prove I am reading it wrong. Your opinion isn't proof. Your words aren't scripture. I don't see "baptism for the dead" anywhere in my posts, you are confused.

Peter is very clear, the Gospel is preached ALSO to the dead that they be judged after they die---Just as Hebrews 9:27 says

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, (Heb. 9:27 NKJ)

As for Romans 2:12, we aren't under law.

The way it works with a proof text, is that all other verses having to do with it, must be interpreted by the proof text.

Whether it's the Godhead, justification, the Lord's Millennium, etc... or in this case any soul having any hope of repenting to the truth after the grave:

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Christ preached to all the souls in hell, to condemn them for rebellion unto death, and to deliver the obedient unto life. Thus, all souls have already had the gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them.

My reference to perhaps baptizing for the dead, in order to get God to take a second look at a soul from the grave, is just having some fun with your doctrine. You need to try and keep a sense of humor without taking your stuff too seriously.

I mean, there are people that do believe in baptizing for the dead, and you believing in preaching to the dead, so it sortta fits...

 

[RBDERRICK]

W

I supplied you with more than a dozen passages proving there is repentance after death.

You supply plenty of Scriptures you say teach '2nd chances' to the dead.

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Since there is no hope for any such wicked dead repenting to do the truth, then all of your readings just reinterpret the verses to fit your own personal wish. Whether you are thinking of someone you once knew, or even trying to hedge your own bets, it's just your own vain hope.

After the grave, the souls' deeds done in this life are judged, not preached to for one 'really really last' chance to repent.

But after thy hardness and unrepentant heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and with this the judgment:

Just judgment time, not final last chance preaching time. All preaching and repenting time is on earth before the grave.

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

All you can do at this time, is dig the ditch deeper by trying to change God's words here, into somehow saying them in the pit can hope for thy truth.

You may think this ridiculous, which would good for you, but I have seen others go that far in their hardness. Such as diving into the Greek and resurface with the Word was not God. Or a god.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You supply plenty of Scriptures you say teach '2nd chances' to the dead.

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Since there is no hope for any such wicked dead repenting to do the truth, then all of your readings just reinterpret the verses to fit your own personal wish. Whether you are thinking of someone you once knew, or even trying to hedge your own bets, it's just your own vain hope.

After the grave, the souls' deeds done in this life are judged, not preached to for one 'really really last' chance to repent.

But after thy hardness and unrepentant heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and with this the judgment:

Just judgment time, not final last chance preaching time. All preaching and repenting time is on earth before the grave.

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

All you can do at this time, is dig the ditch deeper by trying to change God's words here, into somehow saying them in the pit can hope for thy truth.

You may think this ridiculous, which would good for you, but I have seen others go that far in their hardness. Such as diving into the Greek and resurface with the Word was not God. Or a god.

Death and the grave aren't people, they can't praise God. Those going down to the "pit" are the irredeemably wicked, they have no hope. They are segregated from redemable dead, they are in "the pit", the worse part of Sheol/Hades.


You take Hebrew 9:27 out of context, after the judgment those who repented "eagerly wait for Christ's second coming to rescue them from Hades.

Your evasion of the scriptures I cited proves you have no scripture support whatsoever.

You have lost the argument.

Unless you can detail in the following scriptures how I misunderstood them, you lost the argument:


Various Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity is explicit or implicit:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:3-6 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];[#Z]

 

[RBDERRICK]

They are segregated from redemable dead,

Here is where you now show no sense. If the unrepented souls are judged 'redeemable' vs 'unredeemable', then God has judged and separated some that will now repent, from them that still won't repent.

The eternal judgment has already been made, with no need to hear the gospel again and defacto repent. That is Calvin's error of predeterminism extended beyond the grave.

The separation at the grave is between repented redeemed souls, and unrepented unredeemed souls.

There is no division between unrepented souls, nor separate 'place' for any of them to repent. There is no purgatory space of repentance granted by God beyond the grave.

The space given by the longsuffering of God to repent, is only here and now before the grave:

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Death and the grave aren't people, they can't praise God. Those going down to the "pit" are the irredeemably wicked, they have no hope.

I.e. purgatory for the unrepented souls, that God has already judged will certainly repent after purgatory.

They are segregated from redemable dead,

I.e. a segregated place for purgatory of unrepented, yet will certainly repent, dead souls.

they are in "the pit", the worse part of Sheol/Hades.

And so like all purgatorians, you also turn to pagan mythology, where there was a hell for the rebellious Titans separate from the Hades of dead men.

You take Hebrew 9:27 out of context, after the judgment those who repented

I take the verse the same as all Scripture: Exactly as written.

You add repentance to the verse, which is only by preaching. The Bible declares it is the time for judgment, not for preaching and repentance.

"eagerly wait for Christ's second coming to rescue them from Hades.

And so, your place of purgatory for the unrepentant (that will certainly now finally repent) is a continued 'Abraham's bosom' in hell.

The OT saints eagerly awaited Christ's only coming into hell. The temporary garden of paradise in hell, is now emptied with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The OT saints were not unrepented transgressors unto the grave.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Here

RBDERRICK said
For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Alfred Persson said:
Death and the grave aren't people, they can't praise God.

Those going down to the "pit" are the irredeemably wicked, they have no hope.

They are segregated from redeemable dead, they are in "the pit", the worse part of Sheol/Hades.

RBDERRICK said
Here is where you now show no sense. If the unrepented souls are judged 'redeemable' vs 'unredeemable', then God has judged and separated some that will now repent, from them that still won't repent.

The eternal judgment has already been made, with no need to hear the gospel again and defacto repent. That is Calvin's error of predeterminism extended beyond the grave.

The separation at the grave is between repented redeemed souls, and unrepented unredeemed souls.

There is no division between unrepented souls, nor separate 'place' for any of them to repent. There is no purgatory space of repentance granted by God beyond the grave.

Alfred Persson said:
With God all things are possible (Mk. 10:27) .

It is appointed for men to die once then the judgment.

Whether they go to the section reserved for the very wicked, or eagerly wait in Hades for the Second Coming of Christ unto salvation:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

Sheol/Hades refers to the “unseen realm” where Hades, “the pit”, “Gehenna”, “Lake of Fire”, “Abyss” etc. are. The “dimension of the dead” as it were. Its divided into sections, fallen angels are in “tartarus”, their offspring are in “prison”, spirits of demons (Nephilim) are in the Abyss, the human dead are in Sheol/Hades unless they are very wicked, in which case they are in “the pit” also called “destruction” “Abaddon”.

It’s the intermediate place where the dead wait for Judgment Day. How they wait, whether its “living according to God in the Spirit” or in torments in the pit, is determined when they die physically:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

For example, the “spirits in prison” or “Men of Renown” (Gen. 6:4) who could not believe Noah’s preaching God would overlook their “Frankenstein” hybrid -angel-human nature, an abomination to God, and so would not repent before the flood. Christ makes a special trip to convince them God could forgive them, if they repent and believe His preaching, JUST AS Church also gave the answer of a good conscience, and so were (as baptism symbolizes) raised up with Christ:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-22 NKJ)

They now wait with the OT saints and the Church for the 1st Resurrection/gathering of the Church at Christ’s Second Coming, just as do all who “live according to God in the Spirit” (protected from torments) while they wait in Hades for Christ’s salvation.

The Rapture/First Resurrection happens well before the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) which doesn’t happen till after the Millennial Reign of Christ.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:15-17 NKJ)

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6 NKJ)


RBDERRICK said
The space given by the longsuffering of God to repent, is only here and now before the grave:

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Alfred Persson said:
Incorrect, I gave you more than a dozen of scriptures showing repentance after death. You ignored them. Here they are again. Click the # for commentary on the scripture:

Various Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity is explicit or implicit:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:3-6 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];[#Z]


As for the scripture you cited, they do not support your claim there is no repentance possible after death. Neither discuss the issue.

The First is a warning to the church that was paying heed to a false prophetess names Jezebel:

The next text is a warning not to follow the bad example of the Israelites in the wilderness and harden our hearts. Its not about repentance after death.

But Joshua and many with Him will enter God’s rest, because they did not harden their hearts against God.

In conclusion, you misquote scripture, take it out of context to teach a pretext. Worse than that, willfully ignored are all the texts that prove you wrong.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I.e.

Alfred Persson said:
Death and the grave aren't people, they can't praise God. Those going down to the "pit" are the irredeemably wicked, they have no hope.

RBDERRICK said
I.e. purgatory for the unrepented souls, that God has already judged will certainly repent after purgatory.

Alfred Persson said:
Purgatory? That is a Catholic doctrine about dead Catholics. Scripture doesn’t teach purgatory.

It teaches it is appointed for men to die once, after that is a Judgment where they will wait for the Second Coming of Christ, or Judgment Day after the Millennial reign of Christ.

Those who repent eagerly wait for His second coming for salvation, those who do not stay in Hades until Judgment Day.

Alfred Persson said:
They are segregated from redeemable dead,

RBDERRICK said
I.e. a segregated place for purgatory of unrepented, yet will certainly repent, dead souls.

Alfred Persson said:
Nothing I said is about purgatory, and nothing you just said is coherent. Perhaps you will clarify.

Alfred Persson said:
they are in "the pit", the worse part of Sheol/Hades.

RBDERRICK said
And so like all purgatorians, you also turn to pagan mythology, where there was a hell for the rebellious Titans separate from the Hades of dead men.

Alfred Persson said:
Peter says the gospel is preached ALSO to the dead so they can repent, he said nothing about purgations and neither did I:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Alfred Persson said:
You take Hebrew 9:27 out of context, after the judgment they eagerly wait for Christ’s second coming for salvation:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

RBDERRICK said
I take the verse the same as all Scripture: Exactly as written.

You add repentance to the verse, which is only by preaching. The Bible declares it is the time for judgment, not for preaching and repentance.

Alfred Persson said:
It obvious they passed the judgment after they died, now they eagerly wait for His salvation from Hades, at His Second Coming. So it is clear they must have repented and believed in Jesus, He is the ONLY way to salvation.

Alfred Persson said:
"eagerly wait for Christ's second coming to rescue them from Hades.

RBDERRICK said
And so, your place of purgatory for the unrepentant (that will certainly now finally repent) is a continued 'Abraham's bosom' in hell.

Alfred Persson said:
If the Rich Man were irredeemably wicked neither Abraham or the Saints with him, would want to cross over into the fires of hell to comfort him:

24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'(Lk. 16:24-26 NKJ)


Nor would the Rich Man call him “father Abraham,” rather he would blaspheme and curse both God and Abraham for his torments, because that is what the irredeemably wicked do. "They do not praise God" in the "pit" of hell.

Various Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity is explicit or implicit:
Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:3-6 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];[#Z]

 

[RBDERRICK]

Alfred Persson said:
With God all things are possible (Mk. 10:27) .

With God yes.

Never with God without His word.

It is appointed for men to die once then the judgment.

Whether they go to the section reserved for the very wicked, or eagerly wait in Hades for the Second Coming of Christ unto salvation:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

Sheol/Hades refers to the “unseen realm” where Hades, “the pit”, “Gehenna”, “Lake of Fire”, “Abyss” etc. are. The “dimension of the dead” as it were. Its divided into sections, fallen angels are in “tartarus”, their offspring are in “prison”, spirits of demons (Nephilim) are in the Abyss, the human dead are in Sheol/Hades unless they are very wicked, in which case they are in “the pit” also called “destruction” “Abaddon”.

It’s the intermediate place where the dead wait for Judgment Day. How they wait, whether its “living according to God in the Spirit” or in torments in the pit, is determined when they die physically:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

For example, the “spirits in prison” or “Men of Renown” (Gen. 6:4) who could not believe Noah’s preaching God would overlook their “Frankenstein” hybrid -angel-human nature, an abomination to God, and so would not repent before the flood. Christ makes a special trip to convince them God could forgive them, if they repent and believe His preaching, JUST AS Church also gave the answer of a good conscience, and so were (as baptism symbolizes) raised up with Christ:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-22 NKJ)

They now wait with the OT saints and the Church for the 1st Resurrection/gathering of the Church at Christ’s Second Coming, just as do all who “live according to God in the Spirit” (protected from torments) while they wait in Hades for Christ’s salvation.

Going in circles now. After death is the judgment, not the preaching.

But after thy hardness and unrepentant heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

The unrepentant are the wicked, whether small or great.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The books of works before the grave are opened to judge small and great by. Not the Bible to preach to them by.

The Rapture/First Resurrection happens well before the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) which doesn’t happen till after the Millennial Reign of Christ.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:15-17 NKJ)

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6 NKJ)

Now we move from a 'fail-safe' purgatory for the hardened against God, to a present 'spiritual' reigning on earth to ward off the second death.

Same M.O.: shall be somehow saved in the end, while being enemies of God unto the grave.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

As for the scripture you cited, they do not support your claim there is no repentance possible after death. Neither discuss the issue.

I make no claim. I only repeat that the gospel is preached for now and today to repent unto salvation.

You make the claim of the gospel being preached for now to repent, or a later day after the grave.

 

[Alfred Persson]

With God yes.

Never with God without His word.


Going in circles now. After death is the judgment, not the preaching.

But after thy hardness and unrepentant heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

The unrepentant are the wicked, whether small or great.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The books of works before the grave are opened to judge small and great by. Not the Bible to preach to them by.


Now we move from a 'fail-safe' purgatory for the hardened against God, to a present 'spiritual' reigning on earth to ward off the second death.

Same M.O.: shall be somehow saved in the end, while being enemies of God unto the grave.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


I make no claim. I only repeat that the gospel is preached for now and today to repent unto salvation.

You make the claim of the gospel being preached for now to repent, or a later day after the grave.

You "make no claim"? Here is a list of your claims in this post alone:

1)Never with God without His word.
2)After death is the judgment, not the preaching.
3)The unrepentant are the wicked, whether small or great.
4)The books of works before the grave are opened to judge small and great by. Not the Bible to preach to them by.
5)Now we move from a 'fail-safe' purgatory for the hardened against God, to a present 'spiritual' reigning on earth to ward off the second death.
6)I make no claim.
7)I only repeat that the gospel is preached for now and today to repent unto salvation.

You also claim to believe the scripture, yet you aren't believing these scriptures; thus contradicting your claim::

Various Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity is explicit or implicit:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:3-6 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];[#Z]