Understanding the obedience of faith.

[JLB]

If faith produces no obedience at all then it demonstrates that its dead. That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14)

Here’s what James 2:14 says…

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

There’s no mention of genuine faith or a profession of faith.

Faith comes to us by hearing God’s word to us.

We must do what He says for us to do, otherwise our faith is dead.

If it’s faith for salvation then we must obey the Gospel command to repent.

The way we do this is confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

 

[JLB]

Biblical believing results in producing obedience because its alive in Christ. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

The way faith is alive, is by obedience; obeying what God speaks to us to do.

Otherwise if we don’t obey the word of faith, then the faith we received from God remains dead; dormant, inactive and therefore incomplete.

Just like a body without a spirit is dead and incomplete.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

The “works” James is referring to is obedience; the obedience of faith.


For Abraham the obedience was to get out from his country and go to the land God would show him.

For Noah the obedience was to build the Ark.

For the woman with the issue of blood her obedience involved pressing through the crowd to touch the hem of His garment.

For those who were saved by hearing the gospel the obedience was to confess Jesus as Lord.

 

[mailmandan]

Here’s what James 2:14 says…

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

There’s no mention of genuine faith or a profession of faith.

Faith comes to us by hearing God’s word to us.

We must do what He says for us to do, otherwise our faith is dead.

If it’s faith for salvation then we must obey the Gospel command to repent.

The way we do this is confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

In James 2:14 read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

 

[JLB]

In James 2:14 read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

Here’s what James 2:14 says…

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

There’s no mention of genuine faith or a profession of faith.

 

[mailmandan]

Here’s what James 2:14 says…

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

There’s no mention of genuine faith or a profession of faith.

Once again, in James 2:14 we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS (key word - profession of faith) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Genuine faith/living faith produces works. Dead faith produces no works. Simple!

 

[mailmandan]

The way faith is alive, is by obedience; obeying what God speaks to us to do.

The way faith is alive is by placing it in Jesus Christ for salvation. Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 8 through faith, (not through obedience/works) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Otherwise if we don’t obey the word of faith, then the faith we received from God remains dead; dormant, inactive and therefore incomplete.

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and the word of faith is in our mouth and heart together. (Romans 10:8) You misinterpret James 2:14 to be saying what good is it if someone actually has faith (you disregard says/claims to have faith) but he has not yet produced works. Can faith save him, which implies one will not be saved until they produce works and that we are saved by both faith and works in contradiction to Romans 4:2-3; Ephesians 2:8,9. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Just like a body without a spirit is dead and incomplete.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

In regard to "faith without works is dead," James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

You need to realize that James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

The “works” James is referring to is obedience; the obedience of faith.

James is referring to obedience/works/good works which "follow" saving faith in Christ. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

For Abraham the obedience was to get out from his country and go to the land God would show him.

Was that act of obedience accounted to Abraham as righteousness? Or was it not until Genesis 15:6 when Abraham believed the Lord that his faith was accounted to him for righteousness after God said to him, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” It's a rhetorical question. Also, in Romans 4:2-3, we read - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works of obedience) was accounted to him for righteousness.

For Noah the obedience was to build the Ark.

Yet Noah was already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God before he built the ark. His obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it.

For the woman with the issue of blood her obedience involved pressing through the crowd to touch the hem of His garment.

Demonstration of her faith but not the origin of it.

For those who were saved by hearing the gospel the obedience was to confess Jesus as Lord.

We are saved by believing the gospel (Romans 1:16) and not simply by hearing it + works. Confessing Jesus as Lord is not an act of obedience/work done to save us after believing the gospel. Confession of Christ by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3) is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation. Something tells me that I could explain all of this to you until I'm blue in the face, but you still just won't get it. Your obedience of faith eisegesis culminates in salvation by works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Here’s what James 2:14 says…

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

There’s no mention of genuine faith or a profession of faith.

1. It does not say they have faith.
2. It says they had a claim they had faith, but they had no works (hearers only not doers)
3. It asks the question. Can that "claimed" faith save them

the answer is no..(even demons believe...)

mere belief has never saved anyone. in any age since creation

 

[JLB]

The way faith is alive is by placing it in Jesus Christ for salvation. Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 8 through faith, (not through obedience/works) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The “works” Paul is referring to is the works of the law of Moses.

Believing Pharisee’s from Jerusalem went to the churches Paul was raising up among the Gentiles, and tried to bring these Gentiles under the law of Moses.

Paul dealt with this issue in many of his letters.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached. Ephesians 2:8-15

 

[Eternally-grateful]

The “works” Paul is referring to is the works of the law of Moses.

actually no. The ephesian church was never under the law of moses. so Paul would not be discussing these workd. but any works. (works of merit)

Believing Pharisee’s from Jerusalem went to the churches Paul was raising up among the Gentiles, and tried to bring these Gentiles under the law of Moses.

Paul dealt with this issue in many of his letters.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached. Ephesians 2:8-15

Paul rejects this idea in titus 3. Not by good deeds we have done

 

[JLB]

1. It does not say they have faith.
2. It says they had a claim they had faith, but they had no works (hearers only not doers)
3. It asks the question. Can that "claimed" faith save them

the answer is no..(even demons believe...)

mere belief has never saved anyone. in any age since creation

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:14

this verse plainly says but does not have works.

 

[JLB]

actually no. The ephesian church was never under the law of moses. so Paul would not be discussing these workd. but any works. (works of merit)

I didn’t say they were under the law of Moses.

Pharisee’s from Jerusalem introduced teachings to try and bring the Gentiles under he law of Moses by saying you must become circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved.

This became a huge issue that Paul traveled back to Jerusalem to address.

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.
So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Acts 15:1-5



Again, Look at the contextual language in the passage of Ephesians.

Paul explains the law of Moses is abolished.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached. Ephesians 2:8-15

 

[JLB]

Paul rejects this idea in titus 3. Not by good deeds we have done

Not good deeds.
Not works of righteousness.
Not good works
Not work that earns a wage
Not the works of the law


The obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26

 

[mailmandan]

The “works” Paul is referring to is the works of the law of Moses.

Believing Pharisee’s from Jerusalem went to the churches Paul was raising up among the Gentiles, and tried to bring these Gentiles under the law of Moses.

Paul dealt with this issue in many of his letters.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached. Ephesians 2:8-15

In an effort to get around the truth, people who teach salvation by works often try turn "not saved by works" passages into saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) but this argument is bogus.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now which good works could a Christian could do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

So when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law of Moses. In Titus 3:5, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. so "not saved by works" is not merely limited to specific works under the law of Moses, but works in general.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:14

this verse plainly says but does not have works.

This clearly says they CLAIM to have faith. it does not say they had faith

 

[Eternally-grateful]

I didn’t say they were under the law of Moses.

Pharisee’s from Jerusalem introduced teachings to try and bring the Gentiles under he law of Moses by saying you must become circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved.

This became a huge issue that Paul traveled back to Jerusalem to address.

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.
So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Acts 15:1-5



Again, Look at the contextual language in the passage of Ephesians.

Paul explains the law of Moses is abolished.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached. Ephesians 2:8-15

No you said Paul was arguing against it. He was not. He was arguing against works of merit. would would be any work. Not just works of the law

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Not good deeds.
Not works of righteousness.
Not good works
Not work that earns a wage
Not the works of the law


The obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26

Not good deeds

works of faith are good deeds.

I thought you said you were not trying to preach a gospel of works.. Seems nothing you are saying would prove that you are not preaching works

 

[mailmandan]

Not good deeds

works of faith are good deeds.

I thought you said you were not trying to preach a gospel of works.. Seems nothing you are saying would prove that you are not preaching works

Folks who preach a gospel of works (and don't even seem to realize it) come up with all kinds of creative ways to promote salvation by faith + their own personal definition of non-meritorious works.

 

[JLB]

This clearly says they CLAIM to have faith. it does not say they had faith

Yes if someone says they have faith, but do not have works…

You seem to have missed that part.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:14


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:15

It’s not that they are claiming to have faith, and don’t have it.

The truth the scripture is plainly teaching is the faith they have is dead, if they don’t have works.

Their faith, the received from God is dead, dormant, inactive and unable to save.

The “work” James is referring to as he brings us to his point is obedience; the obedience of faith.

Abraham, obeyed when God told him to sacrifice his son on the altar.



JLB

 

[JLB]

No you said Paul was arguing against it. He was not. He was arguing against works of merit. would would be any work. Not just works of the law

The context is the Ephesians passage you quoted is about doing the works of the law to be saved.

Again, here is the context.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached. Ephesians 2:8-15

 

[JLB]

Not good deeds

works of faith are good deeds.

I never mentioned “works of faith” I mentioned the obedience of faith.


Example:

At the preaching of the Gospel a person must obey the Gospel to be saved.


Do you disagree?