What was wrong with C.S. Lewis's argument that Jesus had to be either Lord, liar, or lunatic?

God gives the increase…

The sheep 🐑 know my voice…

I lean Calvinist. Everyone is commanded to repent and believe upon Christ but only the elect are given the divine intervention required to make it happen.

I like cs Lewis overall. Szasz…makes valid points about mental illness etc , so I don’t find much value in the lunatic aspect of Lewis’s argument.
 
Free said:
First, where is your evidence?
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So, you are not familiar with the great and terrible infamy of the "Christian", among the unbelievers of the last thousand years plus?
Free said:
Second, what does any of this have to do with Lewis's argument, which is based on what Jesus said and the NT states?
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Lewis' argument has the presumption, that people called "Christian" can be trusted with their reports of history.
 
jonathanbrickman0000 said:
So, you are not familiar with the great and terrible infamy of the "Christian", among the unbelievers of the last thousand years plus?
Click to expand...
I have no idea what this has to do with this discussion.

jonathanbrickman0000 said:
Lewis' argument has the presumption, that people called "Christian" can be trusted with their reports of history.
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Lewis's argument is based on what the gospel accounts record. You don't believe the gospels are true or accurate history?
 
Lewis' argument is based on what the Gospel accounts record. I believe them, because God has caused me to believe them. Before He did that, I had very good cause to disbelieve them, because of the nature of a great many mouths which spoke of them.
 
Free

You write:

‘Biblical Unitarian is an oxymoron.’ (Post 10).

As you know, an oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms or ideas.

There is nothing contradictory in the term ‘Biblical Unitarian’.

The late William Ellery Channing – one of Unitarianism's leading theologians – writes:

‘We regard the Scriptures as the records of God's successive revelations to mankind, and particularly of the last and most perfect revelation of his will by Jesus Christ. Whatever doctrines seem to us to be clearly taught in the Scriptures; we receive without reserve or exception. We do not, however, attach equal importance to all the books in this collection. Our religion, we believe, lies chiefly in the New Testament.

‘Jesus Christ is the only master of Christians, and whatever he taught, either during his personal ministry, or by his inspired Apostles, we regard as of divine authority, and profess to make the rule of our lives. This authority, which we give to the Scriptures, is a reason, we conceive, for studying them with peculiar care, and for inquiring anxiously into the principles of interpretation, by which their true meaning may be ascertained.’ (‘Unitarian Christianity: Exploring The Evolution of Unitarian Thought and American Religion’).

Taken from the Biblical Unitarian website:

‘We believe that the Scriptures are “God-breathed,” perfect in their original writing, without flaw or contradiction, and provide the only sure and steadfast basis for faith. Understanding the Scripture is attainable by applying logic and sound principles of biblical interpretation, in conjunction with the spirit of God in us.

‘We believe that the Heavenly Father alone is God (John 17:3).

‘We believe that God (the Father) is Supreme – greater than all others, the Creator of the heavens and earth.

‘We believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of “God” (the Father) (John 3:16).

‘We believe that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied about in the Old Testament Scriptures (Gen. 3:15).

‘We believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem to Mary, a virgin, who was betrothed to Joseph (Matt. 2:1; Luke 1:26-33).

‘We believe that Jesus was directly descended from David through Mary according to the flesh, as was promised to David (Rom. 1:2-4).

‘We believe that God was literally Jesus’ father, in that God created Jesus’ life in Mary (Luke 1:35).

‘We believe that Jesus is “the Last Adam,” and he lived without sin throughout His life (1 Cor. 15:45; Heb. 4:15).

‘We believe that in his earthly ministry Jesus acted on behalf of his father whom he represented; and he taught, healed, raised the dead, and forgave sins. (Acts 2:22, John 3:34, Heb. 1:3).

‘We believe that on the third day after he died, God honored His promise and raised Jesus from the dead and gave him a new body that was and remains incorruptible (Acts 10:39-41; 13:29-31).

‘We believe that God highly exalted Jesus, gave him the “seat” at his right hand (made him His right-hand man), made him “Lord,” and gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Phil. 2:9-11; Acts 2:36; Matt. 28:18).

‘We believe that Jesus was designated by God to be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).

‘We believe that God is “holy” and that He is “spirit,” and that He is often referred to as the “Holy Spirit” in Scripture. God is the Giver, and the gift He gives via the new birth is “holy spirit,” His divine nature (Isa. 6:3; John 4:24; Acts 2:38).’

Like it or not, these Articles of Faith are derived from the same Scriptures that you rely on

In the end, it all comes down to how these Scriptures are interpreted, and understood.

The Almighty knows best!
 
The purpose of this thread is to critique Lewis’ ‘Trilemma’; to determine whether or not he was correct to say that Jesus claimed to be God (cf ‘Mere Christianity: p.55-56).

Two contributors (hawkman and GodsGrace) are in agreement with former Archbishop of Canterbury, Michael Ramsey; with the Rev. C.F.D Moule; with the Rev. James Dunn; with Canon Brian Hebblethwaite; and with the Rev. David Brown; each of which deny that Jesus claimed to be God. (see Posts 5; 7; and 26).

Free writes (my emphases):

‘There is no assumption. He truly did claim to be God in human flesh, to be equal to the Father.’ (Post 9).

Complete agreement with Lewis.

But then – in Post 11 – Free writes (my emphasis):

‘…..While Jesus didn't say "I am God," he did claim to be the I Am, a claim to absolute existence……………………’

Disagreement with Lewis, as to his claim that Jesus called himself God (explicitly); but in full agreement with Lewis’ final words: ‘I have to accept the view that He was and is God.’ (‘Ibid’).

The New Testament scholar Craig A. Evans writes:

‘When it comes to evaluating Jesus, popular Christian apologists often appeal to the triad of options proposed by C.S.Lewis half a century ago: Jesus was either liar, lunatic or Lord. The appeal makes for good alliteration, maybe even good rhetoric, but it is faulty logic. Without further qualification, those who adhere to this line of argument commit the fallacy of excluded middle. That is, they overlook other viable alternatives. At least two other alternatives are possible; both relate to how Scripture is understood, and both come into play in the books that Fabricating Jesus criticizes.’ (‘Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels’)
 
Niblo said:
Free

You write:

‘Biblical Unitarian is an oxymoron.’ (Post 10).

As you know, an oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms or ideas.

There is nothing contradictory in the term ‘Biblical Unitarian’.

The late William Ellery Channing – one of Unitarianism's leading theologians – writes:

‘We regard the Scriptures as the records of God's successive revelations to mankind, and particularly of the last and most perfect revelation of his will by Jesus Christ. Whatever doctrines seem to us to be clearly taught in the Scriptures; we receive without reserve or exception. We do not, however, attach equal importance to all the books in this collection. Our religion, we believe, lies chiefly in the New Testament.

‘Jesus Christ is the only master of Christians, and whatever he taught, either during his personal ministry, or by his inspired Apostles, we regard as of divine authority, and profess to make the rule of our lives. This authority, which we give to the Scriptures, is a reason, we conceive, for studying them with peculiar care, and for inquiring anxiously into the principles of interpretation, by which their true meaning may be ascertained.’ (‘Unitarian Christianity: Exploring The Evolution of Unitarian Thought and American Religion’).

Taken from the Biblical Unitarian website:

‘We believe that the Scriptures are “God-breathed,” perfect in their original writing, without flaw or contradiction, and provide the only sure and steadfast basis for faith. Understanding the Scripture is attainable by applying logic and sound principles of biblical interpretation, in conjunction with the spirit of God in us.

‘We believe that the Heavenly Father alone is God (John 17:3).

‘We believe that God (the Father) is Supreme – greater than all others, the Creator of the heavens and earth.

‘We believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of “God” (the Father) (John 3:16).

‘We believe that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied about in the Old Testament Scriptures (Gen. 3:15).

‘We believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem to Mary, a virgin, who was betrothed to Joseph (Matt. 2:1; Luke 1:26-33).

‘We believe that Jesus was directly descended from David through Mary according to the flesh, as was promised to David (Rom. 1:2-4).

‘We believe that God was literally Jesus’ father, in that God created Jesus’ life in Mary (Luke 1:35).

‘We believe that Jesus is “the Last Adam,” and he lived without sin throughout His life (1 Cor. 15:45; Heb. 4:15).

‘We believe that in his earthly ministry Jesus acted on behalf of his father whom he represented; and he taught, healed, raised the dead, and forgave sins. (Acts 2:22, John 3:34, Heb. 1:3).

‘We believe that on the third day after he died, God honored His promise and raised Jesus from the dead and gave him a new body that was and remains incorruptible (Acts 10:39-41; 13:29-31).

‘We believe that God highly exalted Jesus, gave him the “seat” at his right hand (made him His right-hand man), made him “Lord,” and gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Phil. 2:9-11; Acts 2:36; Matt. 28:18).

‘We believe that Jesus was designated by God to be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).

‘We believe that God is “holy” and that He is “spirit,” and that He is often referred to as the “Holy Spirit” in Scripture. God is the Giver, and the gift He gives via the new birth is “holy spirit,” His divine nature (Isa. 6:3; John 4:24; Acts 2:38).’

Like it or not, these Articles of Faith are derived from the same Scriptures that you rely on

In the end, it all comes down to how these Scriptures are interpreted, and understood.

The Almighty knows best!
Click to expand...
Jesus was not raised with a new body.
1. The tomb was empty
2. Thomas inspected Jesus's nail scarred hands and His pierced sides.
Same body He died in.
 
onlysaved said:
Jesus was not raised with a new body.
1. The tomb was empty
2. Thomas inspected Jesus's nail scarred hands and His pierced sides.
Same body He died in.
Click to expand...
They may argue that Jesus' body was not simply a resurrected corpse but a transformed body, with new abilities and characteristics. Jesus' resurrected body could, for example, walk through walls and appear and disappear suddenly.

You may well disagree....but, there again, you are not Biblical Unitarian.
 
GodsGrace said:
Some Christians don't believe everything a CHRISTIAN is supposed to believe.
So you're SO WHAT? comment is valid.
Click to expand...
Hi Fran.
Thank you.
Hope you are well and happy. Wednesday is going to be an interesting day!
Very best regards.
Paul
 
Niblo said:
The purpose of this thread is to critique Lewis’ ‘Trilemma’; to determine whether or not he was correct to say that Jesus claimed to be God (cf ‘Mere Christianity: p.55-56).

Two contributors (hawkman and GodsGrace) are in agreement with former Archbishop of Canterbury, Michael Ramsey; with the Rev. C.F.D Moule; with the Rev. James Dunn; with Canon Brian Hebblethwaite; and with the Rev. David Brown; each of which deny that Jesus claimed to be God. (see Posts 5; 7; and 26).

Free writes (my emphases):

‘There is no assumption. He truly did claim to be God in human flesh, to be equal to the Father.’ (Post 9).

Complete agreement with Lewis.

But then – in Post 11 – Free writes (my emphasis):

‘…..While Jesus didn't say "I am God," he did claim to be the I Am, a claim to absolute existence……………………’

Disagreement with Lewis, as to his claim that Jesus called himself God (explicitly); but in full agreement with Lewis’ final words: ‘I have to accept the view that He was and is God.’ (‘Ibid’).

The New Testament scholar Craig A. Evans writes:

‘When it comes to evaluating Jesus, popular Christian apologists often appeal to the triad of options proposed by C.S.Lewis half a century ago: Jesus was either liar, lunatic or Lord. The appeal makes for good alliteration, maybe even good rhetoric, but it is faulty logic. Without further qualification, those who adhere to this line of argument commit the fallacy of excluded middle. That is, they overlook other viable alternatives. At least two other alternatives are possible; both relate to how Scripture is understood, and both come into play in the books that Fabricating Jesus criticizes.’ (‘Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels’)
Click to expand...
I would not, as a Christian, spend too much time defending CS Lewis, but rather, the Scriptures that he wished to protect and defend. Calling Jesus "liar, lunatic, or Lord" is, as you suggest, simply a memorable, cute way to say a larger truth with no interest in covering "middle territory" in "alternative ideas."

It is quite simply a claim that it is likely that the NT Jesus was the divine "Son of Man" potrayed as coming with the clouds in Dan 9. He was "God's unique Son" in the sense that he was the source of eternal grace--the exclusive basis and sacrifice necessary for us to receive Eternal Life, as opposed to a temporary reliance on animal sacrifices made through the Law.

The entire system is crazy, ie the system of the Law, if viewed from an agnostic point of view, because without faith there is no basis in reason for accepting what is being proposed, that mankind has a Sin Nature that must be dealt with by the given system of redemption. We cannot fathom why a Deity would require animal blood, purifying water, and various holidays and rest days in order to commune with a people.

Similarly, Jesus' claim to fulfill all of this transcends what was possible for ordinary, and even exceptional, men in OT Israel. Neither the royalty nor the priesthood had a means of ending the OT system of sacrifice, and yet Jesus claimed to be transcendent, not only on the Mt. of Transfiguration, but also able to offer a kind of "temple worship" outside of Jerusalem, wherever there is is "spirit and truth."

Claiming to not just represent the Father's word, but also his every aspect as a human, is most certainly a claim to be one with Deity. If that's what Jesus meant, that he lied if it wasn't true, or even crazy, if it is not to be believed, then Lewis was right. "Middle alternatives" just doesn't seem relevant to me.
 
Last edited:
onlysaved said:
Jesus was not raised with a new body.
1. The tomb was empty
2. Thomas inspected Jesus's nail scarred hands and His pierced sides.
Same body He died in.
Click to expand...
I agree with this--Jesus, in his resurrection, was essentially "healed"--and not yet glorified. That's why, I believe, Jesus asked Mary not to "restrain him," because he still had yet to go to his Father and receive a new glorified body.

And that's why, I believe, Christians have to be caught up to heaven to receive their new glorified bodies because that's where Jesus is and where he received his new glorified body, from the Lord Himself.

Regardless, good Christians believe either way, that Jesus was raised in his old body or was raised in his glorified body. I'm not sure it's of any great significance to be disagreed on this point?

What is important, however, is to not just recite various Christian doctrines without actually living out what they suggest, that we live *now* in newness of life, with a renewed mind, and a right spirit.

We can live similar to how Jesus lived without even having to be sinless and perfect. We can overcome our sin inclinations by setting our minds on things above, and to thereby obtain from Christ that initial "deposit on our eternal inheritance."
 
RandyK said:
I would not, as a Christian, spend too much time defending CS Lewis, but rather, the Scriptures that he wished to protect and defend. Calling Jesus "liar, lunatic, or Lord" is, as you suggest, simply a memorable, cute way to say a larger truth with no interest in covering "middle territory" in "alternative ideas."

It is quite simply a claim that it is likely that the NT Jesus was the divine "Son of Man" potrayed as coming with the clouds in Dan 9. He was "God's unique Son" in the sense that he was the source of eternal grace--the exclusive basis and sacrifice necessary for us to receive Eternal Life, as opposed to a temporary reliance on animal sacrifices made through the Law.

The entire system is crazy, ie the system of the Law, if viewed from an agnostic point of view, because without faith there is no basis in reason for accepting what is being proposed, that mankind has a Sin Nature that must be dealt with by the given system of redemption. We cannot fathom why a Deity would require animal blood, purifying water, and various holidays and rest days in order to commune with a people.

Similarly, Jesus' claim to fulfill all of this transcends what was possible for ordinary, and even exceptional, men in OT Israel. Neither the royalty nor the priesthood had a means of ending the OT system of sacrifice, and yet Jesus claimed to be transcendent, not only on the Mt. of Transfiguration, but also able to offer a kind of "temple worship" outside of Jerusalem, wherever there is is "spirit and truth."

Claiming to not just represent the Father's word, but also his every aspect as a human, is most certainly a claim to be one with Deity. If that's what Jesus meant, that he lied if it wasn't true, or even crazy, if it is not to be believed, then Lewis was right. "Middle alternatives" just doesn't seem relevant to me.
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I can understand that you wish to defend your Scriptures. This is natural for all believers.
 
GodsGrace said:
I'm scared.
As are many here....
Click to expand...
Yes. Very uncertain times. I don't know enough about the individual cardinals to say more than that. I suspect....but could well be very much mistaken....that politics will play a bigger role than faith.
Nowt we can do, but wait.
Blessings.
 
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