What was wrong with C.S. Lewis's argument that Jesus had to be either Lord, liar, or lunatic?

[GodsGrace]

Yes. Very uncertain times. I don't know enough about the individual cardinals to say more than that. I suspect....but could well be very much mistaken....that politics will play a bigger role than faith.
Nowt we can do, but wait.
Blessings.

There are 137 that will vote,,,maybe 135.
Francis hand picked more than 100.
He "stacked the deck".
Most are liberal and are talking about following the path he set.
He split the church in two.
Which brings up an interesting question regarding the Orthodox Faith.
MAYBE they had to leave for the same reason that some will leave the church today....
Maybe it was the CC that created the schism and they felt they could no longer belong?
You know...the age old question as to which church goes back to the beginning...
the CC or the OC.

 

[Johann!@#]

Which isn't the point. The point is, if the Son is God the Son in human flesh, how should we expect God in human flesh to speak of God, the Father, in heaven while maintaining monotheism? Isn't it reasonable to expect that he would make implications without explicitly stating so, so as not to create confusion as to God's omnipresence, or as to whether there was one or two Gods?

It also misses the point that concepts are found in the Bible without explicitly mentioning them. While Jesus didn't say "I am God," he did claim to be the I Am, a claim to absolute existence, if not also to be the I Am of Ex. 3:14. He claimed existence with the Father prior to creation, which is a claim to eternal pre-existence. He accepted worship from his followers, without rebuke, which would have been blasphemous if he wasn't also truly God. He also claimed omnipresence--"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” (Mat 18:20, ESV)

So, we see that Jesus often claims attributes that belong to God, without actually saying "I am God."

To those denying the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is Jesus God?

Is Jesus really God? Many cults and false religions today deny it. What is the truth about Jesus Christ? We turn to the Scriptures for the answer.

answersingenesis.org

10 Biblical Reasons Jesus Is God

When Christians ask people, “Who do you say Jesus is?” there are various answers about his identity. What does the New Testament tell us about who he is?

answersingenesis.org

Is Jesus God? Yes.
There are numerous evidences for the absolute deity of Jesus Christ in the Bible. The following is a summary of the more important evidences.

Jesus Has the Names of God
Jesus Christ possesses divine names—names that can only be used of God. For example:

Jesus is Yahweh. Yahweh is a very common Hebrew name for God in the Old Testament, occurring over 5,300 times. It is translated Lord (all capitals) in many English translations of the Bible.

We first learn of this name in Exodus 3, where Moses asked God by what name He should be called. God replied to him, “I AM WHO I AM. . . .Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you’ ” (verse 14). Yahweh is basically a shortened form of “I AM WHO I AM” (verse 15). The name conveys the idea of eternal self-existence. Yahweh never came into being at a point in time for He has always existed.

Jesus implicitly ascribed this divine name to himself during a confrontation He had with a group of hostile Jews. He said, “I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). Jesus deliberately contrasted the created origin of Abraham—whom the Jews venerated—with His own eternal, uncreated nature as God.

Jesus is Kurios. The New Testament Greek equivalent of the Old Testament Hebrew name Yahweh is Kurios. Used of God, Kurios carries the idea of a sovereign being who exercises absolute authority. The word is translated Lord in English translations of the Bible.

The affirmation that “Jesus is Lord” (Kurios) in the New Testament constitutes a clear affirmation that Jesus is Yahweh.
To an early Christian accustomed to reading the Old Testament, the word Lord, when used of Jesus, would point to His identification with the God of the Old Testament (Yahweh). Hence, the affirmation that “Jesus is Lord” (Kurios) in the New Testament constitutes a clear affirmation that Jesus is Yahweh, as is the case in passages like Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 12:3, and Philippians 2:5–11.

Jesus is Elohim. Elohim is a Hebrew name that is used of God 2,570 times in the Old Testament. The name literally means “strong one,” and its plural ending (im in Hebrew) indicates fullness of power. Elohim is portrayed in the Old Testament as the powerful and sovereign governor of the universe, ruling over the affairs of humankind.

Jesus is recognized as both Yahweh and Elohim in the prophecy in Isaiah 40:3: “Prepare the way of the Lord [Yahweh]; make straight in the desert a highway for our God [Elohim].” This verse was written in reference to John the Baptist preparing for the coming of Christ (as confirmed in John 1:23) and represents one of the strongest affirmations of Christ’s deity in the Old Testament. In Isaiah 9:6, we likewise read a prophecy of Christ with a singular variant (El) of Elohim: “And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God [El], Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

Jesus is Theos. The New Testament Greek word for God, Theos, is the corresponding parallel to the Old Testament Hebrew term Elohim. A well-known example of Christ being addressed as God (Theos) is found in the story of “doubting Thomas” in John 20. In this passage, Thomas witnesses the resurrected Christ and worshipfully responds: “My Lord and my God [Theos]” (John 20:28).

Jesus is called Theos throughout the rest of the New Testament. For example, when a jailer asked Paul and Silas how to be saved, they responded: “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household” (Acts 16:31). After the jailer believed and became saved, he “rejoiced, having believed in God [Theos] with all his household” (verse 34). Believing in Christ and believing in God are seen as identical acts.

Jesus Possesses the Attributes of God
Jesus possesses attributes that belong only to God.

Jesus is eternal. John 1:1 affirms: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The word was in this verse is an imperfect tense, indicating continuous, ongoing existence. When the timespace universe came into being, Christ already existed (Hebrews 1:8–11).

Jesus is self-existent. As the Creator of all things (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2), Christ himself must be uncreated. Colossians 1:17 tells us that Christ is “before all things, and in Him all things consist.”

Jesus is everywhere-present. Christ promised His disciples, “Where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them” (Matthew 18:20). Since people all over the world gather in Christ’s name, the only way He could be present with them all is if He is truly omnipresent (see Matthew 28:20; Ephesians 1:23, 4:10; Colossians 3:11).

Jesus is all-knowing. Jesus knew where the fish were in the water (Luke 5:4, 6; John 21:6–11), and He knew just which fish contained the coin (Matthew 17:27). He knew the future (John 11:11, 18:4), specific details that would be encountered (Matthew 21:2–4), and knew from a distance that Lazarus had died (John 11:14). He also knows the Father as the Father knows Him (Matthew 11:27; John 7:29, 8:55, 10:15, 17:25).

Jesus is all-powerful. Christ created the entire universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2) and sustains the universe by His own power (Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3). During His earthly ministry, He exercised power over nature (Luke 8:25), physical diseases (Mark 1:29–31), demonic spirits (Mark 1:32–34), and even death (John 11:1–44).

Jesus is sovereign. Christ presently sits at the right hand of God the Father, “angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him” (1 Peter 3:22). When Christ comes again in glory, He will be adorned with a majestic robe, and on the thigh section of the robe will be the words, “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS” (Revelation 19:16).

J.

 

[Free]

Free

You write:

‘Biblical Unitarian is an oxymoron.’ (Post 10).

As you know, an oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms or ideas.

There is nothing contradictory in the term ‘Biblical Unitarian’.

The late William Ellery Channing – one of Unitarianism's leading theologians – writes:

‘We regard the Scriptures as the records of God's successive revelations to mankind, and particularly of the last and most perfect revelation of his will by Jesus Christ. Whatever doctrines seem to us to be clearly taught in the Scriptures; we receive without reserve or exception. We do not, however, attach equal importance to all the books in this collection. Our religion, we believe, lies chiefly in the New Testament.

‘Jesus Christ is the only master of Christians, and whatever he taught, either during his personal ministry, or by his inspired Apostles, we regard as of divine authority, and profess to make the rule of our lives. This authority, which we give to the Scriptures, is a reason, we conceive, for studying them with peculiar care, and for inquiring anxiously into the principles of interpretation, by which their true meaning may be ascertained.’ (‘Unitarian Christianity: Exploring The Evolution of Unitarian Thought and American Religion’).

Taken from the Biblical Unitarian website:

‘We believe that the Scriptures are “God-breathed,” perfect in their original writing, without flaw or contradiction, and provide the only sure and steadfast basis for faith. Understanding the Scripture is attainable by applying logic and sound principles of biblical interpretation, in conjunction with the spirit of God in us.

‘We believe that the Heavenly Father alone is God (John 17:3).

‘We believe that God (the Father) is Supreme – greater than all others, the Creator of the heavens and earth.

‘We believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of “God” (the Father) (John 3:16).

‘We believe that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied about in the Old Testament Scriptures (Gen. 3:15).

‘We believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem to Mary, a virgin, who was betrothed to Joseph (Matt. 2:1; Luke 1:26-33).

‘We believe that Jesus was directly descended from David through Mary according to the flesh, as was promised to David (Rom. 1:2-4).

‘We believe that God was literally Jesus’ father, in that God created Jesus’ life in Mary (Luke 1:35).

‘We believe that Jesus is “the Last Adam,” and he lived without sin throughout His life (1 Cor. 15:45; Heb. 4:15).

‘We believe that in his earthly ministry Jesus acted on behalf of his father whom he represented; and he taught, healed, raised the dead, and forgave sins. (Acts 2:22, John 3:34, Heb. 1:3).

‘We believe that on the third day after he died, God honored His promise and raised Jesus from the dead and gave him a new body that was and remains incorruptible (Acts 10:39-41; 13:29-31).

‘We believe that God highly exalted Jesus, gave him the “seat” at his right hand (made him His right-hand man), made him “Lord,” and gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Phil. 2:9-11; Acts 2:36; Matt. 28:18).

‘We believe that Jesus was designated by God to be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).

‘We believe that God is “holy” and that He is “spirit,” and that He is often referred to as the “Holy Spirit” in Scripture. God is the Giver, and the gift He gives via the new birth is “holy spirit,” His divine nature (Isa. 6:3; John 4:24; Acts 2:38).’

Like it or not, these Articles of Faith are derived from the same Scriptures that you rely on

In the end, it all comes down to how these Scriptures are interpreted, and understood.

The Almighty knows best!

I agree that God does know best. The issue is that there is not a single verse in the entire Bible that clearly or explicitly states that God is only one person (unitarian). More than that, there is much to suggest he is Trinitarian. As such, some of those Articles of Faith are taken out of context and therefore contradict other passages of Scripture or otherwise mean something other than what they may appear to say.

It does come down to how the Bible is interpreted and understood, and Unitarians (any unitarian position) lacks proper interpretation and right understanding regarding the nature of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree that God does know best. The issue is that there is not a single verse in the entire Bible that clearly or explicitly states that God is only one person (unitarian). More than that, there is much to suggest he is Trinitarian. As such, some of those Articles of Faith are taken out of context and therefore contradict other passages of Scripture or otherwise mean something other than what they may appear to say.

It does come down to how the Bible is interpreted and understood, and Unitarians (any unitarian position) lacks proper interpretation and right understanding regarding the nature of God.

I knew this thread would end up discussing the deity of Christ.
Can't do this anymore....
So I leave it in the capable hands of both you and Johann!@# ... our new member.

 

[Johann!@#]

I knew this thread would end up discussing the deity of Christ.
Can't do this anymore....
So I leave it in the capable hands of both you and Johann!@# ... our new member.

I don't understand--what can't you do anymore?

Johann

 

[GodsGrace]

To those denying the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is Jesus God?

Is Jesus really God? Many cults and false religions today deny it. What is the truth about Jesus Christ? We turn to the Scriptures for the answer.

answersingenesis.org

10 Biblical Reasons Jesus Is God

When Christians ask people, “Who do you say Jesus is?” there are various answers about his identity. What does the New Testament tell us about who he is?

answersingenesis.org

Is Jesus God? Yes.
There are numerous evidences for the absolute deity of Jesus Christ in the Bible. The following is a summary of the more important evidences.

Jesus Has the Names of God
Jesus Christ possesses divine names—names that can only be used of God. For example:

Jesus is Yahweh. Yahweh is a very common Hebrew name for God in the Old Testament, occurring over 5,300 times. It is translated Lord (all capitals) in many English translations of the Bible.

We first learn of this name in Exodus 3, where Moses asked God by what name He should be called. God replied to him, “I AM WHO I AM. . . .Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you’ ” (verse 14). Yahweh is basically a shortened form of “I AM WHO I AM” (verse 15). The name conveys the idea of eternal self-existence. Yahweh never came into being at a point in time for He has always existed.

Jesus implicitly ascribed this divine name to himself during a confrontation He had with a group of hostile Jews. He said, “I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). Jesus deliberately contrasted the created origin of Abraham—whom the Jews venerated—with His own eternal, uncreated nature as God.

Jesus is Kurios. The New Testament Greek equivalent of the Old Testament Hebrew name Yahweh is Kurios. Used of God, Kurios carries the idea of a sovereign being who exercises absolute authority. The word is translated Lord in English translations of the Bible.

The affirmation that “Jesus is Lord” (Kurios) in the New Testament constitutes a clear affirmation that Jesus is Yahweh.
To an early Christian accustomed to reading the Old Testament, the word Lord, when used of Jesus, would point to His identification with the God of the Old Testament (Yahweh). Hence, the affirmation that “Jesus is Lord” (Kurios) in the New Testament constitutes a clear affirmation that Jesus is Yahweh, as is the case in passages like Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 12:3, and Philippians 2:5–11.

Jesus is Elohim. Elohim is a Hebrew name that is used of God 2,570 times in the Old Testament. The name literally means “strong one,” and its plural ending (im in Hebrew) indicates fullness of power. Elohim is portrayed in the Old Testament as the powerful and sovereign governor of the universe, ruling over the affairs of humankind.

Jesus is recognized as both Yahweh and Elohim in the prophecy in Isaiah 40:3: “Prepare the way of the Lord [Yahweh]; make straight in the desert a highway for our God [Elohim].” This verse was written in reference to John the Baptist preparing for the coming of Christ (as confirmed in John 1:23) and represents one of the strongest affirmations of Christ’s deity in the Old Testament. In Isaiah 9:6, we likewise read a prophecy of Christ with a singular variant (El) of Elohim: “And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God [El], Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

Jesus is Theos. The New Testament Greek word for God, Theos, is the corresponding parallel to the Old Testament Hebrew term Elohim. A well-known example of Christ being addressed as God (Theos) is found in the story of “doubting Thomas” in John 20. In this passage, Thomas witnesses the resurrected Christ and worshipfully responds: “My Lord and my God [Theos]” (John 20:28).

Jesus is called Theos throughout the rest of the New Testament. For example, when a jailer asked Paul and Silas how to be saved, they responded: “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household” (Acts 16:31). After the jailer believed and became saved, he “rejoiced, having believed in God [Theos] with all his household” (verse 34). Believing in Christ and believing in God are seen as identical acts.

Jesus Possesses the Attributes of God
Jesus possesses attributes that belong only to God.

Jesus is eternal. John 1:1 affirms: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The word was in this verse is an imperfect tense, indicating continuous, ongoing existence. When the timespace universe came into being, Christ already existed (Hebrews 1:8–11).

Jesus is self-existent. As the Creator of all things (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2), Christ himself must be uncreated. Colossians 1:17 tells us that Christ is “before all things, and in Him all things consist.”

Jesus is everywhere-present. Christ promised His disciples, “Where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them” (Matthew 18:20). Since people all over the world gather in Christ’s name, the only way He could be present with them all is if He is truly omnipresent (see Matthew 28:20; Ephesians 1:23, 4:10; Colossians 3:11).

Jesus is all-knowing. Jesus knew where the fish were in the water (Luke 5:4, 6; John 21:6–11), and He knew just which fish contained the coin (Matthew 17:27). He knew the future (John 11:11, 18:4), specific details that would be encountered (Matthew 21:2–4), and knew from a distance that Lazarus had died (John 11:14). He also knows the Father as the Father knows Him (Matthew 11:27; John 7:29, 8:55, 10:15, 17:25).

Jesus is all-powerful. Christ created the entire universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2) and sustains the universe by His own power (Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3). During His earthly ministry, He exercised power over nature (Luke 8:25), physical diseases (Mark 1:29–31), demonic spirits (Mark 1:32–34), and even death (John 11:1–44).

Jesus is sovereign. Christ presently sits at the right hand of God the Father, “angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him” (1 Peter 3:22). When Christ comes again in glory, He will be adorned with a majestic robe, and on the thigh section of the robe will be the words, “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS” (Revelation 19:16).

J.

Johann,
Of course I agree with all of the above.
But I think this thread is about Jesus declaring HIMSELF to be God....
The OP is looking for times that Jesus stated that He was God incarnate.
Just off-hand I can think of
BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM.
I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

'night.

 

[Johann!@#]

Johann,
Of course I agree with all of the above.
But I think this thread is about Jesus declaring HIMSELF to be God....
The OP is looking for times that Jesus stated that He was God incarnate.
Just off-hand I can think of
BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM.
I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

'night.

Goodnight sorella.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't understand--what can't you do anymore?

Johann

I can't debate the deity of Jesus anymore.
Not because I can't,,,but I kind of got to thinking, about a year ago,
that this shouldn't even be discussed.

But that's a personal opinion of mine.
We have members on these Forums that state themselves to be Christian
but do not believe Jesus is God.

Maybe I'm just getting tired of some stuff?

Anyway, Free is an expert at this, so I leave it to you and to him...
but this thread is a little different....When did Jesus actually state that He was God...
that is the question....I think.

Too tired.
'notte.

 

[Johann!@#]

I can't debate the deity of Jesus anymore.
Not because I can't,,,but I kind of got to thinking, about a year ago,
that this shouldn't even be discussed.

But that's a personal opinion of mine.
We have members on these Forums that state themselves to be Christian
but do not believe Jesus is God.

Maybe I'm just getting tired of some stuff?

Anyway, Free is an expert at this, so I leave it to you and to him...
but this thread is a little different....When did Jesus actually state that He was God...
that is the question....I think.

Too tired.
'notte.

Buonanotte sorella, non ti stressare.

J.

 

[Johann!@#]

Buonanotte sorella, non ti stressare.

J.

Give this a listen from Sommer.

The Trinity in Ancient Jewish Books

https://seedofabraham.net/Angel-of-the-Lord.pdf?utm_source=

J.

 

[Free]

I knew this thread would end up discussing the deity of Christ.
Can't do this anymore....
So I leave it in the capable hands of both you and Johann!@# ... our new member.

We really should just keep it on topic, especially since we have numerous threads to discuss the deity of Jesus.

 

[Johann!@#]

We really should just keep it on topic, especially since we have numerous threads to discuss the deity of Jesus.

My apologies Free.

Shalom.

Johann.

 

[Free]

My apologies Free.

Shalom.

Johann.

No worries. I was doing it too.

 

[Niblo]

It does come down to how the Bible is interpreted and understood, and Unitarians (any unitarian position) lacks proper interpretation and right understanding regarding the nature of God.

Agree to disagree!

 

[Niblo]

You know...the age old question as to which church goes back to the beginning...
the CC or the OC.

CC

 

[RandyK]

I can understand that you wish to defend your Scriptures. This is natural for all believers.

This sounds a bit patronizing. The truth is, I don't just defend Scriptures because I'm proud of my tradition and wish to defend my tradition. Much more than this, I defend the Scriptures because I believe them, as well as experience them.

There is no greater proof of truth than *experiencing it.* Well, I suppose I should add that when subjective experience is joined with objective reality, then the reason to support Scripture is greater.

It is when people cut off the subjective experience of God, because it does not fit in with their "free will," that they are led to assume there is no real experience of God. And all the proofs of fulfilled Divine Prophecy appear as explainable in any other way.

 

[Niblo]

This sounds a bit patronizing.

Not my intention. I apologise for any offence.
Blessings.

 

[RandyK]

Not my intention. I apologise for any offence.
Blessings.

It's okay. We never know online what the underlying thoughts or motives are. We have to test them. The biggest mistake I make on forums like this is in saying things that very much "sound" like something I'm not trying to say! ;)

Take care, and blessings to you too!

 

[Niblo]

The biggest mistake I make......... is in saying things that very much "sound" like something I'm not trying to say! ;)

Take care, and blessings to you too!

My wife would assure you that I do this all the time!
My very best regards.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Here is a fourth possibility. From a non-believer's perspective, the story could be regarded as a legend. If the divine claims were later additions by followers, Jesus might have been a profound legendary teacher without being God, a liar, or a lunatic. Judaism views him as a rabbi and not God, while Islam regards him as a prophet. Fundamentally, non-Christians do not perceive the gospels as entirely historically reliable.

From a non-believer's perspective, Jesus is just a historical figure in the first century middle east, he is only as relevant as any ancient sage such as Aristote. If you preach Jesus in India, chances are, your listeners won't question who he is or whether he really existed, you say he is God, he is divine, amen, then they just add in their pantheon, put him among their other deities, it's very similar to the situation in Athens when Paul preached Jesus to the Aeropagus. The heart of the problem is that they don't understand the concept of sin and salvation from sin, their put their faith in their bank account, institutions, family, technology or some other deity.