[__ Science __ ] Old Earth vs. Young Earth

[Elijah7777]

You believe that Adam and Eve lived along side of dinosaurs, great. However, there is NO Bible evidence of that being the case.

Turtles and crocodiles are still alive today because they could survive the flood. Most all dinosaur remains are found in flood deposits for whatever that is worth. Science talks about plate technotics.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Yes that is correct.

Dr. J Vernon Magee was well know as a "Gap" theory person to explain the existence of dinosaurs.

He and many others say that the Hebrew word for day "yom" actually translates as ...a period of time/ ages.

I remember as a teenager trying to answer all these questions I had as they were trying to teach me evolution in school. I could not find answers. Until I was reading the new Scofield NKJV reference my dad just got me. As I was reading his notes. I read about the gap theory. and I could finally answer so many questions.. I held onto this belief for years. Until I went to a creation museum, and purchased a few books and read them. It totally changed my view after a few years of deep study into these other theories

 

[Eternally-grateful]

With all due respect......if you believe that then you are reading into the Scriptures something that is not there.

with all due respect. I have studied this in great detail. And it is most certainly there

We can never take a pre-conceived idea and try to validate it with Scripture.

Agree 100%

But we can take the scripture. see the detail. and use that to form our belief

There is NO Bible record of Noah taking dinosaurs on the Ark. Again, by saying that Noah took two of every kind of animal is "reading into" the Scriptures something that is not specifically there.

There is no record of him not taking a particular kind on the ark

Gen 7: 14 they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.

last I heard. a dino is a particular kind of BEAST, I believe they are prety much large reptiles. created by God.

I can not accept the Flood as the force that cause layers of earth and mountains to shoot upwards.

You should study more.. the flood was not the source. it is what caused the flood that was the source.

and the fountains of the great deep BURST open.

what does this mean, there are quite a few theories out there. all of which would or could cause all the things we see in Genesis

Plate techtonics has proven that.

Plate tectonics is one of the major contributors of the flood according to many Christian scientists.. Dr Andrew Snelling being one of them, (there were many authors and books I read) it was one of his books (earth's catostrophic past) that started my journey from being a GAP theorist to a YEC creationist. and a literal 7 day creation period.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

God is a God of absolute Justice. We tend to connect Justice with the Law. Science tells us that the laws of physics are very exact and precise. Also we know the Justice of God is very exact and precise. Everyone gets what is coming to them. People reap what they sow.

The God who created science I would assume would use it.

so we would expect science to prove a creation happened..

and I think it continues to do this quite well

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Perhaps you misunderstood. My point is that young earth proponents must necessarily either include verses 1 and 2 as part of day care one, or say that verse 1 is a general statement of creation, with the rest of chapter one simply providing further detail.

Vs 1 and 2 is a general statement

this happened..

yes I agree

What I am suggesting is another possibility—that verse 2 is a continuation of the creation of the universe in verse 1, essentially introducing the earth prior to additional specific creation, and verse 3 is the beginning of the first of the six creation days with respect to the earth in particular.

But the earth is included in vs 1.

God created the heavens and the earth.

Created is in the perfect tense. a completed action.

so while I agree, it may be another option. I would tend to disagree that it is what happened based on these 2 things

 

[Elijah7777]

Look up Lebanon cedar. those are huge trees.

There is a scripture that says the Lebanon cedar trees are more beautiful than all the trees in Eden. They still have a few in the sky area of Lebanon but the forests are long gone. That is what Solomon used to build the Temple. As Jesus says a tree is a whole eco system all onto itself.

 

[Elijah7777]

The God who created science

Science allows us to extend our perception beyond our natural senses, uncovering hidden details in creation.

For example, we use a prism to break light into its spectrum of colors, revealing wavelengths invisible to the naked eye. Similarly, microscopes let us see microscopic life, telescopes allow us to gaze into distant galaxies, and spectroscopy helps scientists study the composition of stars and planets.

It’s fascinating how science and faith can work together—one explores how things work, while the other seeks to understand why they exist. The ability to seek knowledge and understand creation is a profound gift.

 

[Rodger]

with all due respect. I have studied this in great detail. And it is most certainly there

Agree 100%

But we can take the scripture. see the detail. and use that to form our belief

There is no record of him not taking a particular kind on the ark

Gen 7: 14 they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.

last I heard. a dino is a particular kind of BEAST, I believe they are prety much large reptiles. created by God.


You should study more.. the flood was not the source. it is what caused the flood that was the source.

and the fountains of the great deep BURST open.

what does this mean, there are quite a few theories out there. all of which would or could cause all the things we see in Genesis


Plate tectonics is one of the major contributors of the flood according to many Christian scientists.. Dr Andrew Snelling being one of them, (there were many authors and books I read) it was one of his books (earth's catostrophic past) that started my journey from being a GAP theorist to a YEC creationist. and a literal 7 day creation period.

Good to know. I am glad that you are well studied on this topic.

 

[Rodger]

I remember as a teenager trying to answer all these questions I had as they were trying to teach me evolution in school. I could not find answers. Until I was reading the new Scofield NKJV reference my dad just got me. As I was reading his notes. I read about the gap theory. and I could finally answer so many questions.. I held onto this belief for years. Until I went to a creation museum, and purchased a few books and read them. It totally changed my view after a few years of deep study into these other theories

And a lot of people who also did deep study came away with a different view.

 

[Rodger]

Turtles and crocodiles are still alive today because they could survive the flood. Most all dinosaur remains are found in flood deposits for whatever that is worth. Science talks about plate technotics.

Crocodiles and alligators and turtles survived because of adaptability.

Also, IMHO, the information you got on remains being found in the flood deposits is incorrect as far as I can tell. Actually, most have been found in "rocks" close to river banks.

 

[Rodger]

I'm always humored when someone parrots the line, "Genesis was not written as a scientific treatise." As if that has any bearing on whether what it tells us is true or not. No, God did not have Moses write the Genesis account to us with all the pi are square explanations of how there were already halos in the rocks. And the atmosphere consisted of 1/3 oxygen and 2/3 hydrogen. No, absolutely the Scriptures were not written with that kind of textual material to explain to all and sundry the 'scientific' make-up of everything that exists. No, not at all.

But it does make some statements that we have no reason to believe are not statements of facts concerning the creation event. It does provide an umbrella of dates and times that certain and specific events happened as regards the creation of all that we see surrounding us. Even much later in the Scriptures we read a number of times the claim that God did make everything. At one point explaining to us that He did it through Jesus, the Son.

So, while I fully agree that the Scriptures will never be a good substitute for a good 'scientific' novel, they are presented to us as the testimony of God Himself concerning who He is, who we are and how this realm of existence in which we wake up every day came to be. Yes, God's word does make that claim. And in the order and by the numbers that He makes that claim we have at least three times in the Scriptures in which God does say that He made everything in six days. He then says that He made Adam on the sixth day and we know that when Adam was 130 years old he had a son named Seth. According to God's testimony, that would make the earth 130 years old and 6 days. Then God had the wisdom to have Moses account all the ages of the fathers as other sons were born to them by which it is an extremely simple matter to see that, according to God's testimony, the earth is just some 6,000 years old. The universe would be the same age minus 3 days.

But honestly, it's hard to comprehend for us. We look at pictures from the Hubble telescope, or now the Webb telescope, and we just can't fathom a creature who can merely command for all of those countless stars and galaxies of stars to just exist. And we have our own solar system sweeping around on a spiral of the Milky Way and nothing ever hits anything of any substance. A few meteors might whizz into a planet or star and make little pock marks on the planets, but none of the big stuff, planets that would shake up the entire universe if they were to collide has ever happened as far as we know, anywhere in the universe. It all seems to be such a pure work of precision that only a God with purpose would create and not just random space junk flying around out there. Which I believe is why God's testimony to us is that we can see the works of His abilities when we stand in awe of the heavens. The heavens declare the glory of God, God's word tells us. We should look at the heavens to get some idea of what the glory of God is like. His awesome power and wisdom to create an entire universe that runs like a finely made clockwork. God's testimony to us, although it's not 'scientifically' proven yet, is that when we look at the heavens we get a glimpse of the glory of God.

So yes, when I look at those telescope images I am just awed by the power of the one who created it all. And I consider the power and majesty and wisdom it must have taken to conceive and create all of that in the span of time of a mere rotation of the planet earth. He just flung it all out there, but it has always run like a finely tuned clockwork.

God's testimony to us is that in 6 evenings and mornings, that He refers to as days, He created this realm for us in which we are living. It was made with all the atmospheric conditions on this one singular planet, as far as we know, for a creature, that His testimony also tells us that He scooped up some dirt with which He made the first of us, to have life... and to have it abundantly! It was created with all the trees and foliage and animals needed to sustain this cycle of life that He began in this realm of existence of His creating. As far as we know there is no other planetary body in all of the universe that has what is necessary for man to live on. That tells me that God is pretty specifically just working with the earth as far as this created existence in which we live.

He called for the earth to exist and it did. Spinning all alone. He fashioned the earth to be able to sustain mankind and He placed the sun and moon and stars in the heavens. He did that all in six days. And on that final sixth day of God's work of creating, He fashioned the first man and then made him a woman as a companion and helpmate. God confirms for us that accounting of the six days taken to create this realm that He has made for us in which to live at least 3 times in His testimony to us.

Now, you're free to say, "Well, science tells me that just can't be true! They have proof that it just isn't the truth of the matter." Me, I'm going with God's testimony to me as to the how and why and when this realm of existence came to be. And just as with any other of God's miracles, I'm going to just know and understand that science can't prove or disprove a miracle. When science can tell me how Mary wound up pregnant, then I'll listen to any other explanations they might have concerning miracles. I'm very anxious to hear how they have proven that God parted the sea and how He did that.

I know that you are a committed Young Earth person. Congratulations. And from reading your pots it is easy to see that you are able to make anything out of nothing.

If a global Flood destroyed all humans except Noah and his family just 4350 years ago, why don’t we find human fossils in the same layers of rock believed to be set down by Noah’s Flood?

I also find it interesting that you decided to say things like....."He called the earth into existence" when I never said that he didnt!

And then there is the "He did it in six days" when I never said that He didnt. All of the LONG post you did and you only repeated what I have said as if that is somehow going to frighten me into your way of thinking and I say that with all respect to you and your belief.

As I have said.....I am not challenging the Creation of Earth by God in 7 days x 24 hr. days. I have NO idea why you felt the need to say otherwise.

Now if you are able to discuss this topic allow me to ask you a simple question...........
If a global Flood destroyed all humans except Noah and his family just 4350 years ago, why don’t we find human fossils in the same layers of rock believed to be set down by Noah’s Flood?

This is a perfectly natural and appropriate question for a young-earth believer as yourself to answer. After all, according to their interpretation earth’s history, all fossil remains of dinosaurs, sea reptiles, trilobites, fish, cephalopods, molluscs, brachiopods and the quintillions of quintillions of other fossils we find preserved in rock today are said to be the result of their being instantly preserved during this singular catastrophic Flood event just a 4350 years ago.

If these fossils represent organisms that had been alive as the Flood waters consumed the earth, where are all the human fossils?

 

[Rodger]

Half the people would not be alive today if it were not for the practice of medicine. But clearly people take advantage of that to rip people off. People like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and countless doctors that do all they can to stuff money in their pocket. God will judge them and their motives. It is not our place to do that.

Brother....Focus.

This responce has nothing to do with the topic.

Medical science is a product of the Love of God in that He has allowed man to learn, grow and improve our health.

The point here is that "medical science" is in the field of science itself which includes geology, anthropology, chronological dating, radio carbon dating, and so on.

The only way that a YOUNG EARTH person can explain all of those scientific positions is to claim that ALL of them are wrong.

All I am saying is that there has to be another explination.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Science allows us to extend our perception beyond our natural senses, uncovering hidden details in creation.

For example, we use a prism to break light into its spectrum of colors, revealing wavelengths invisible to the naked eye. Similarly, microscopes let us see microscopic life, telescopes allow us to gaze into distant galaxies, and spectroscopy helps scientists study the composition of stars and planets.

It’s fascinating how science and faith can work together—one explores how things work, while the other seeks to understand why they exist. The ability to seek knowledge and understand creation is a profound gift.

amen

people like to call it blind faith

But God does not leave us blind, he gives us ample evidence. As he said in Romans 1.

19 because what may be known of God is in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and ]Godhead, so that they are without excuse

 

[Eternally-grateful]

And a lot of people who also did deep study came away with a different view.

I am sure they have.

its like Christianity. we all read the same book and we can't come together on even the basic principles of the gospel..

Satan's goal is to keep us divided..

 

[Eternally-grateful]

The only way that a YOUNG EARTH person can explain all of those scientific positions is to claim that ALL of them are wrong.

your not open to anything are you?

Actually, as I study science, I see every scientific position supports my view. or can be explained by my view.

I do not see this with OEC theology.. its why I repented of that view I held for 30 years and changed

 

[Rodger]

there was no death before the fall.. So I doubt the core would have decayed. 2nd, was there even a core in the apple. since trees would not die. meaning new trees would not need to grow to take their place

I just take the road that death is a result of sin. hence if there was no sin, there would be no death.

so there would not be any death before the fall.

So then.....you accept completely that the earth is roughly 6000 years old, even though there is NO Biblical evidence of that belief.

Then when you are shown the Bible truth of the meaning of death in Romans 5:12,
that the death from Adam was SPIRITUAL because he lived another 930 years after he sinned----
You then reject that Bible truth. Now you do not have to believe me, you do the work. Investigate it, do the study for your self.

Do you find your left hand wondering what your right hand is doing?

 

[Rodger]

your not open to anything are you?

Actually, as I study science, I see every scientific position supports my view. or can be explained by my view.

I do not see this with OEC theology.. its why I repented of that view I held for 30 years and changed

That is really not a good question now is it brother.

I am the one who asked about another answer to Young Earth theology.
I am the one who is OPEN to other things.

A lot of us study science my brother, you are not alone and the fact that you do does not alter what I am asking.

You said..........
"I see every scientific position supports my view".

Really-OK...then since YOU are a studied scientific person, you should be able to give a really good answer to the question of.......If a global Flood destroyed all humans except Noah and his family just 4350 years ago, why don’t we find human fossils in the same layers of rock believed to be set down by Noah’s Flood and If dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time why are no human fossils found with dinosaur fossils?

 

[Rodger]

I am sure they have.

its like Christianity. we all read the same book and we can't come together on even the basic principles of the gospel..

Satan's goal is to keep us divided..

No new news there my friend.

Please keep mind, that from the original post, I am only asking a question and trying to discuss a relative topic.

Now I ask that for one reason. My church is one mile from a University and over the years we get many students. We even have a "College Class" of 35 students.

This question that I posed come up every single year from these "Science educated" individuals and they want a better answer that......"Just have faith and accept what I tell you".

This generation wants to believe but if we can not give them a proper answer then we will lose them.

1 Peter 3:15.....
"but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect".

What I am asking on this forum is the questions that are asked to me, and their arguments against a YOUNG Earth.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

So then.....you accept completely that the earth is roughly 6000 years old, even though there is NO Biblical evidence of that belief.

I believe is is between 6 and 10,000 years. and evidence supports this.

again, if you look at it from a global flood perspective,

Then when you are shown the Bible truth of the meaning of death in Romans 5:12,
that the death from Adam was SPIRITUAL because he lived another 930 years after he sinned----
You then reject that Bible truth. Now you do not have to believe me, you do the work. Investigate it, do the study for your self.

I believe adam died the moment he sinned, Just as God promised.; in the moment you eat of this tree you will die. but why would you accuse me of this (falsly I may add0 when it has nothing to do with our discussion?

Do you find your left hand wondering what your right hand is doing?

do what?

do you want to discuss the topic. or make false silly accusations, then mock people who do nto agree with you?

 

[Eternally-grateful]

That is really not a good question now is it brother.

I am the one who asked about another answer to Young Earth theology.
I am the one who is OPEN to other things.

from what you said in my post. I do not see you being open to anything, people who are open do not come out and talk like you do

A lot of us study science my brother, you are not alone and the fact that you do does not alter what I am asking.

You said..........
"I see every scientific position supports my view".

Really-OK...then since YOU are a studied scientific person, you should be able to give a really good answer to the question of.......If a global Flood destroyed all humans except Noah and his family just 4350 years ago, why don’t we find human fossils in the same layers of rock believed to be set down by Noah’s Flood and If dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time why are no human fossils found with dinosaur fossils?

2 Peter 3: 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.

I am not calling you a scoffer. please do not misread.

but this answers the question

1. all scientific aging tools assume that what happened a million of years ago is the same today. Otherwise. it would not be reliable

2. It assumes things we see today were part of that ancient earth

3. It is based on forgetfulness or lack of knowledge that that earth (pre flood world) perished in the flood.

there is nothing here on earth that would show us what it was like back then, because water totally destroys things, its bad enough when a local flood can be so severe that it destroys a small town and leaves nothign in its wake.

that flood lasted only a few days to a weak.

Now take a worldwide flood. that lasted over a year..

then look at what happened when the waters receded. leaving these hugs lakes.. there is ample evidence the grand canyon was formed very quickly as two great lakes broke their banks. and carved it out in a matter of weeks. not millions of years..

anyway,

I have seen human footprints and dino footprints in the same stone which means they walked together.

But also remember. The new world (post flood) could not sustain these large creatures.. and only two of each kind came through the flood.. So I would not expect to see much evidence they walked together. that does not phase me in the slightest.