How does everyone see this?

[RandyK]

I'm not clear on why you believe American companies are charged for selling abroad.

Businesses that sell things with duties imposed upon them have to subract that tax from the profit of selling their product. Obviously, US businesses who have to import things to make their product, with duties imposed on them, lose money themselves.

Bottom line: tariffs are a source of income for the US government, made at the expense of foreign businesses. But our businesses, who benefit from foreign products, with tariffs imposed on them, suffer too.

How it all works out for the consumer may be debatable. Maybe it is clear to you? I'm still learning--there are lots of facts/variables to consider.

I'll have to get back with you...

 

[Elijah7777]

I appreciate you sharing, but 3.5 years from now you will find out that it was not the case. Just sharing.

I can not imagine being alive 3.5 years from now. What are your plans for the year 2030? I have problems if the power goes down for hours. What are people going to do if the power goes down for days or weeks or months or years? There is a new world coming. The church age is ending, the kingdom age is beginning. I don't know for sure how we will go from one age to the next. The 7-year tribulation seems to be the most popular but there is not much in the Bible about that. If you do not believe in a rapture, that is fine but we are all raptured out of here when we die if we are saved we go to be with Jesus. I firmly believe according to your faith, so be it. If you are sure you are going to go through the tribulation, then I believe right along with you that you will be here to see that.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If you are sure you are going to go through the tribulation, then I believe right along with you that you will be here to see that.

I will never live to see the tribulation, and this has been my constant testimony for over 40 years now. Neither will you.

 

[Elijah7777]

Businesses that sell things with duties imposed upon them have to subract that tax from the profit of selling their product.

That is the theory that those price gougers will give up their ill-gotten gain. But in real life, they are not willing to do that, and they are just not going to continue to provide their product or service. I really liked Temu but they do not seem to be in business now. Even the CEO was the richest man in China. It is not just the higher cost but the slower delivery time. That is a real deal breaker for them.

 

[RandyK]

That is the theory that those price gougers will give up their ill-gotten gain. But in real life, they are not willing to do that, and they are just not going to continue to provide their product or service. I really liked Temu but they do not seem to be in business now. Even the CEO was the richest man in China. It is not just the higher cost but the slower delivery time. That is a real deal breaker for them.

Well yea, that's part of what I mean. The tariffs prevent those businesses from making the money they were making at our (US) expense.

It elevates our own businesses. If their cars are not selling over here, our cars have less to compete with. That helps our businesses grow, which means more jobs for Americans.

But inasmuch as we do make some money from tariffs, it is indicated that some businesses continue to sell their foreign cars over here--even with the tariffs. This shows how good they had it!

 

[RandyK]

I'm not clear on why you believe American companies are charged for selling abroad.

Hopefully I've already answered this?

Sure, there are issues here and there concerning products that other nations might put a tariff on, but again, if you've been paying attention to the economists, tariffs are not a charge to the selling nation.

I've heard indeed. Many of them are Trump-haters. Half-truths are as bad as a lie. We do make money from businesses overseas who are willing to pay the duties. What does that tell you about how much money they were making from selling their stuff here at the expense of our own businesses?

Do you want stuff made overseas with starving laborers or from oppressed laborers competing with goods made in our country from workers making legitimate paychecks?

Personally, I would say that your making that statement shows that you don't really understand how tariffs work.

This from somebody who doesn't think we collect any money from tariffs?

The tariffs in question are tariffs placed by the American government that are punishing American companies.

Oh yea, that's what the anti-Trump Media and so-called "experts" with Trump Derangement Syndrome want us to believe.

The Chinese weren't even considering changing their tariff structure until our government forced them to address the matter by putting crazy large tariffs on their products.

And we should force a change in relationship with the Chinese. A Communist State can manipulate what in our country requires an act of Congress. The rules should reflect fairness--not manipulation to the advantage of either side. There should be a built-in advantage to the home country.

And those tariffs are not paid by China, but paid by Americans. When an importer pays a tariff that cost is then added to the cost of a good that is then sold on the American market. We are honestly just taxing ourselves.

If the tax is added to the import then Americans don't have to buy it. They can buy "US made." Then we won't take advantage of poor laborers in other countries.

Oh, it hasn't all happened yet because our government keeps threatening and then pulling back, but the cracks are showing.

Then your claim is meaningless. You said 100s of thousands of jobs were being lost. Not true, I see? This is pure and unadulterated propaganda.

So, at this point in time the number may not reach 'hundreds' of thousands...

I see. Your claim was meaningless as it pertains to now.

Why in the world would you believe that China is trying to kill us.

You quote the media, and yet you don't read the media? We were told that China has been supporting the fentanyl crisis of "death" in our country. 100s of thousands of young people being killed by the drug, supported by the Chinese who contribute to the operations in Mexico.

A couple of Chinese, obviously connected to the Communist government, have been bringing a contagion into our country for years which can poison our agricultural products, *killing* us.

They haven't been threatening us or doing anything that would seem like they are.

I see. Now you don't want to believe the Media?

And do you mean that China is wanting to be like us in trying to be the dominant player on the earth? Sure, every nation does what it believes is best for its people, but China doesn't want to kill off Americans. WE'RE THE ONES WHO ARE BUYING ALL THEIR GOODS!!!!!! Talk about someone killing the goose that laid the golden egg, sheesh.

Maybe we *shouldn't* be buying all of their goods? I think that's Trump's point. We don't want to depend upon them for our pharmaceutical needs--not even for our toothpaste! But thanks for the conversation. You probably know a lot more than you're letting on?

 

[Elijah7777]

Do you want stuff made overseas with starving laborers or from oppressed laborers

At China New Year everyone takes a week off from work. This gives them a chance to go home and spend time with their family. 20% of the people do not return to their job. I would assume they find a different job.

China has several cities where wages are relatively high, especially in major economic hubs. Shanghai, Beijing, and Shenzhen consistently rank as the top-paying cities, with average monthly salaries exceeding ¥13,000 RMB ($1,870 USD). Other cities like Hangzhou, Nanjing, and Guangzhou also offer strong earning potential.

 

[RandyK]

At China New Year everyone takes a week off from work. This gives them a chance to go home and spend time with their family. 20% of the people do not return to their job. I would assume they find a different job.

China has several cities where wages are relatively high, especially in major economic hubs. Shanghai, Beijing, and Shenzhen consistently rank as the top-paying cities, with average monthly salaries exceeding ¥13,000 RMB ($1,870 USD). Other cities like Hangzhou, Nanjing, and Guangzhou also offer strong earning potential.

Oh goodie--a week off once a year to celebrate Chinese nationalism! I suppose if you're a member of the Communist elite there will be privileges? Excuse me if I'm a tad skeptical?

 

[JLB]

I will never live to see the tribulation, and this has been my constant testimony for over 40 years now. Neither will you.

That’s interesting.

Can you explain why you believe that?

 

[miamited]

Businesses that sell things with duties imposed upon them have to subract that tax from the profit of selling their product. Obviously, US businesses who have to import things to make their product, with duties imposed on them, lose money themselves.

You honestly believe that's how businesses that import goods work? That businesses 'subtract' the cost of tariffs from their profit? Why would they do that? It's just another cost of goods on their balance sheet and is then figured in to the final retail cost.

Bottom line: tariffs are a source of income for the US government, made at the expense of foreign businesses. But our businesses, who benefit from foreign products, with tariffs imposed on them, suffer too.

Oh, absolutely! But that source of income comes out of the pockets of Americans... not the Chinese. We might as well just up the income tax rates and leave the fragilities of import duties out it. I mean, we're just adding another layer of expense of a department that has to collect and account for the import tariffs. If we just raise the income tax rates we will effectively gain the same thing, but without the middle man of another government office to collect the money.

How it all works out for the consumer may be debatable. Maybe it is clear to you? I'm still learning--there are lots of facts/variables to consider.

And yet you want to discuss issues for which you admittedly have little knowledge of.

Look tariffs are just another way that governments collect monies for their operations. And tariffs are paid by the country that imposes them. It is costing China nothing for our government to impose and charge tariffs. As I explained, a Chinese business sells a good to an American business. China charges the American business 50¢ for a widget. The American business pays the Chinese company 50¢ for the widget. But when the widget gets to one of our ports, the U.S. government charges whoever picks up the widget at the port the tariff that is applied to that widget. So, it is an American business, with the proceeds from American consumers that pays the tariff to the U.S. Treasury.

Now yes, the Chinese business may sell fewer widgets because the tariff makes their widget more expensive to the American producer, but the Chinese businesses do not pay the tariff. It's a tax applied against whoever ordered the widgets from China. That cost then becomes a part of the cost of goods sold and is added to the final retail price that the consumer pays. American tariffs cost Americans money... not the Chinese.

 

[miamited]

Then your claim is meaningless. You said 100s of thousands of jobs were being lost. Not true, I see? This is pure and unadulterated propaganda.

Yavolt Commandant!!

 

[RandyK]

Yavolt Commandant!!

Careful--I'm half German. ;) And I can discern that you're much smarter than you make out to be!

 

[RandyK]

You honestly believe that's how businesses that import goods work? That businesses 'subtract' the cost of tariffs from their profit?

I didn't say that. It depends on what businesses you're speaking of. The ones being "taxed" are the ones who subtract the cost of the "tax" from their profits, obviously.

The businesses in America who import foreign products used in their business would have to increase their prices to make up for the "tax." The solution would be to *not* import those ingredients from afar, but to find a means of obtaining those ingredients nearby.

Oh, absolutely! But that source of income comes out of the pockets of Americans... not the Chinese.

I already answered that. American incomes rise with the increasing profitability of American manufacturing and production. They hire more people, and they can afford more, making goods cheaper for them.

As well, Americans *do not have to buy foreign goods!* They might be healthier if they do *not* buy foreign products. Our foreign policy should favor Americans, and not Chinese who export their stuff to us at some cost, diplomatically and economically.

We don't want to owe them anything! We don't want to be like Biden, who shared office space with the Chinese and aided his son Hunter in getting wealthy from them.

We might as well just up the income tax rates and leave the fragilities of import duties out it. I mean, we're just adding another layer of expense of a department that has to collect and account for the import tariffs. If we just raise the income tax rates we will effectively gain the same thing, but without the middle man of another government office to collect the money.

I'm a conservative and believe in "trickle down." We aren't going to move everybody up into the Upper Class. We might want to "tickle them" with the idea of endless upward mobility. But the truth be told, we need wealthy individuals and corporations that make huge profits in order to invest in things that make everybody do relatively well and satisfy their own emotional needs.

Government would be best not so much to create regulations that prohibit growth, but rather, regulations that prevent consolidation of wealth in the hands of the few who do not reinvest or produce to help the entire country.

And yet you want to discuss issues for which you admittedly have little knowledge of.

Yes, I have thoughts about the news and read it every day. I'm fascinated by it. If you don't want to comment on my thoughts, then don't. It's up to you to determine if my comments are worth responding to.

 

[Elijah7777]

Oh goodie--a week off once a year to celebrate Chinese nationalism! I suppose if you're a member of the Communist elite there will be privileges? Excuse me if I'm a tad skeptical?

This was my point: 20% do not return to their job. I do not see any connection between what I am saying and what you are saying. You can not accuse them of slave labor if people are free to quit if they want. They are not going to hunt them down, whip them and drag them back to their jobs like we use to do here in Ameria. Can you tell I am from an Abortionist state?

 

[Elijah7777]

I suppose if you're a member of the Communist elite there will be privileges?

We had a foreign exchange student from China. The same city that gave us the virus. His dad use to deliver weapons to north vietnam. When I was in the army they were training me to put bodies in body bags. So his father wanted me to pick up arms and legs to put in body bags. But now he wanted me to treat his son like my own son and help him to get into college here in America. I do not know what you call it, but I call it loving your enemy. His son did graduate from college with a degree in engineering. His dad was a member of the communist party.

Actually I met the council general from NYC once. Because of an organization that my mom was president of. We sponsered and helped a lot of foreign students and travelers. He seemed like a pretty nice guy. He was interested in a visit to the Amish because he had spent some time living on a farming commune in China.

So I do have mixed feeling about the communist party or even government in general. I have mixed feeling about Trump to where I cannot say I am for him or against him. Which is the way people use to be.

 

[miamited]

The businesses in America who import foreign products used in their business would have to increase their prices to make up for the "tax." The solution would be to *not* import those ingredients from afar, but to find a means of obtaining those ingredients nearby.

Why?

I didn't say that.

Businesses that sell things with duties imposed upon them have to subract that tax from the profit of selling their product.

This is an actual quote of your words that you wrote in post #41. If I've misquoted you please show where? It is exactly what you said.

It depends on what businesses you're speaking of. The ones being "taxed" are the ones who subtract the cost of the "tax" from their profits, obviously.

Now that's the part that you didn't say. And I have no idea what you even mean by "the ones being "taxed" are the ones who subtract the cost of the "tax" from their profits obviously." Who exactly are these businesses that are so different from how every other business operates that merely subtract the cost of tariffs from their profits? And yes, that's exactly what you said.

The businesses in America who import foreign products used in their business would have to increase their prices to make up for the "tax."

But you believe that there are other businesses who just subtract the cost of tariffs from their profits and don't pass it on to the consumer as these other businesses that you are apparently talking about here.

The solution would be to *not* import those ingredients from afar, but to find a means of obtaining those ingredients nearby.

No, the prudent businessman knows to buy the parts that are needed to make the finished product that is sold at retail at the least cost possible. And we live in a global economy. Countries have traded across borders since at least Joseph was carried to Egypt by a caravan of traders. Global trade has always been a large part of every economy. That's one of the reasons that N. Korea is so broken economically. They refuse to buy anything from outside their borders except of course when it is for purposes of growing their war machinery. They don't allow clothing made outside of the country or pretty much anything else. Their people are broken and poor for the most part. Most of the population literally eats a bare subsistence diet.

And why is that the solution. We've been buying goods from foreign nations all over the world for centuries. The incident that most historians say was the camel that broke the early settlers of our nation was the Boston Tea Party incident. It was a message sent to Great Britain through the refusal to allow imported tea to be off loaded in Boston harbor. Tea from Great Britian that was being imported for American's use.

I don't get it. We've been running deficit trade balances for decades and literally have suffered no real deleterious effects because of it. Our unemployment rate has always been as low as it can ever be expected to be. I mean there are always people out of work in an economy as big as ours. But most economists agree that running a 3-5% unemployment rate is pretty stable. Unemployment in the UK is running at 4.5%. India's is 5.1%. Syria is running their unemployment rate at 13%. The United States has never had any economic problems with trade deficits. Don't you get it? We are the greatest nation of spend happy consumers. Why wouldn't we have trade imbalances if we buy more stuff than any other nation? But it doesn't have any negative effect on our economy. It actually makes us stronger and helps to support people all over the globe. We buy stuff from China and India and Japan and Sweden and Great Britain and South American countries because we use more stuff. And in doing so we maintain a stable unemployment, and everyone makes a little money. For over 50 years that's the way it has worked and worked very well overall. This fear mongering that somehow international trade is destroying our economy is a bug-a-boo that the present administration wants you to think is somehow cheating us. It isn't! It isn't a bad thing that we buy more stuff from China or India or Sweden or the South American nations than they buy from us. Everyone wins with open and free trade between nations. It has always been thus at least since Joseph was carried off to Egypt.

Government would be best not so much to create regulations that prohibit growth, but rather, regulations that prevent consolidation of wealth in the hands of the few who do not reinvest or produce to help the entire country.

And I'm guessing that you believe that these tariffs are the answer to that matter.

Open and free trade has generally been the norm over the centuries. Great Britian and much of Europe sent the early Americans just about everything that they bought from the American shopkeepers. But it was on tea that they placed a heavy tax.

In 1770, most of the Townshend taxes were repealed, but taxes on tea were retained. Resistance to this tax included pressure to avoid legally imported tea, leading to a drop in colonial demand for the Company's tea and a burgeoning surplus of the tea in the company's English warehouses.

So, Great Britian was trying to do the same thing that the present administration is doing. The Townshend Act placed import duties on a wide variety of goods, but they were soon repealed... except for the tea tax. Which was part of the impetus to fight the Revolutionary War. The present administration has openly admitted that these tariffs are nothing more than a method by which the rest of the global economic trade groups will have to 'pay to do business with America'. That's a quote from the present leader of this administration.

Just as was done to Zelensky, our leadership believes that every other nation should grovel at the feet of American imperialism. Even today, with all of the nations of Europe who fought in WWII, our present administration wants to paint a picture that it was all American imperialism that won the war. We brag and we boast of how very, very great we are. While the truth is more that we are just a bully nation. We have gone from being the nation that helps other nations for the greater good of the world to the nation that bullies all the other nations into groveling at our feet and praising us for being such a great, great nation and anyone who doesn't tow that line will have their economies decimated with tariffs.

 

[RandyK]

And I have no idea what you even mean by "the ones being "taxed" are the ones who subtract the cost of the "tax" from their profits obviously."

You have "no idea" what I meant by "the ones being taxed?" The duties are a tax on foreign business trying to sell their wares in our country. I call it a tax on foreign business if they can't sell their merchandise in the US without the consumers of those products having to pay a higher price for their merchandise.

I'm not addressing the specifics of how duties are paid and who directly pays them, as an agent of businesses. What I'm addressing is the impact these duties have on foreign goods being sold in the US. With higher prices, to cover the cost of the duties, the merchandise looks less attractive. Consequently, the makers of those products suffer that "tax."

Who exactly are these businesses that are so different from how every other business operates that merely subtract the cost of tariffs from their profits?

It's a simple equation. When X business cannot sell at a good price to consumers here in the US they would have to lose money, or in my words "have X amount subtracted from their profits."

But you believe that there are other businesses who just subtract the cost of tariffs from their profits and don't pass it on to the consumer as these other businesses that you are apparently talking about here.

I said the cost isn't passed on to the consumer? If I said that I was wrong! Most certainly if the cost of importing a car goes up due to increased fees, the consumer will have to pay more for that car!

And why is that the solution. We've been buying goods from foreign nations all over the world for centuries

I'm not opposed to world trade. When did I say I was? There is somethiing called "balanced trade." I buy all of your your tobacco. And you buy all of my cigarettes. Or, we trade different metals, minerals, or naturral materials.

But most economists agree that running a 3-5% unemployment rate is pretty stable.

It is, but in case you haven't noticed, we now have an enormous debt! And our national retirement system seems to be running out of money!

In the meantime, there are militaristic challenges elsewhere in the world that require important trade considerations. Doing business with countries that steal our technology is something we have to consider in our trade relationship with China, along with their involvement in fentanyl being brought into our country from our Southern border.

Unemployment in the UK is running at 4.5%. India's is 5.1%. Syria is running their unemployment rate at 13%. The United States has never had any economic problems with trade deficits. Don't you get it?

Yea, I get it. We're slowly losing the war in having our own needs met by manufacturing in our own country. I don't want to be dependent on other countries for our energy, rare minerals, pharmaceuticals, or anything.

We are the greatest nation of spend happy consumers. Why wouldn't we have trade imbalances if we buy more stuff than any other nation?

Maybe we shouldn't be consuming too much of everything from every country. If we focus on developing the most important human needs ourselves, as opposed to spending on recreation, maybe there would be less human need in our own country?

But it doesn't have any negative effect on our economy.

I totally disagree, and obviously Trump does too. Are you a Democrat? I think at least you lean Left?

Foreign companies want to sell their stuff here. And our companies want to sell their stuff there. If those companies' governments put higher tariffs on the sale of our goods there than we charge on their goods here, their companies will sell better than our companies.

That is a negative impact from a trade imbalance. Manufacturers will want to move to foreign countries to avoid foreign duties and be happy to pay our lower duties. Less manufacturers in the US impact American jobs.

Furthermore, I've heard there are all kinds of restrictions placed on our goods being sold overseas. If so, we should limit how easily their stuff can be sold here (keep the cost of foreign goods here high).

It actually makes us stronger and helps to support people all over the globe. We buy stuff from China and India and Japan and Sweden and Great Britain and South American countries because we use more stuff. And in doing so we maintain a stable unemployment, and everyone makes a little money. For over 50 years that's the way it has worked and worked very well overall.

You keep saying that but "times they are a-changing." That's the rub--things have in fact changed in a big way. We've *never* owed this kind of debt before, at least not within a reasonable range of time. Some would even call it an "emergency."

This fear mongering that somehow international trade is destroying our economy is a bug-a-boo that the present administration wants you to think is somehow cheating us.

Or, someone leaning Left and controlling the Media wants you to believe there's nothing wrong with helping China to defeat us. And how dare you think China has an evil bone in their body!

So, Great Britian was trying to do the same thing that the present administration is doing.

No, comparing the Revolutionary War to current trade practices is absurd. Let's compare the British monarchy of that time to the Chinese dictatorship of today. China would force trade policies on us that benefit them and hurt us, just like Britain wanted to tax us to benefit themselves and hurt us. We addressed the problem with Great Britain. We should address the problem with China too.

We brag and we boast of how very, very great we are. While the truth is more that we are just a bully nation. We have gone from being the nation that helps other nations for the greater good of the world to the nation that bullies all the other nations into groveling at our feet and praising us for being such a great, great nation and anyone who doesn't tow that line will have their economies decimated with tariffs.

Typical Leftist talk--hate America. We're bullies, and we should just lay down and die, to let the oppressors of the world take over. What a solution to all our problems, right? Or really, what I think you want is to have Trump removed--it's really a political concern, isn't it?

 

[RandyK]

We had a foreign exchange student from China. The same city that gave us the virus. His dad use to deliver weapons to north vietnam. When I was in the army they were training me to put bodies in body bags. So his father wanted me to pick up arms and legs to put in body bags. But now he wanted me to treat his son like my own son and help him to get into college here in America. I do not know what you call it, but I call it loving your enemy. His son did graduate from college with a degree in engineering. His dad was a member of the communist party.

Actually I met the council general from NYC once. Because of an organization that my mom was president of. We sponsered and helped a lot of foreign students and travelers. He seemed like a pretty nice guy. He was interested in a visit to the Amish because he had spent some time living on a farming commune in China.

So I do have mixed feeling about the communist party or even government in general. I have mixed feeling about Trump to where I cannot say I am for him or against him. Which is the way people use to be.

These days you pretty much have to make a choice. The Lefties won't let you be neutral--you will be fire-bombed.

I don't blame people for growing up with Islam, Communism, or even in a radicalized refugee camp. The question is: are they so far gone that you can't reach their conscience anymore?

 

[RandyK]

This was my point: 20% do not return to their job. I do not see any connection between what I am saying and what you are saying. You can not accuse them of slave labor if people are free to quit if they want. They are not going to hunt them down, whip them and drag them back to their jobs like we use to do here in Ameria. Can you tell I am from an Abortionist state?

It was a less than clear reference to the Muslim slaves run by the Chinese government--Uighurs. If people do not return to their jobs what does it say about their jobs?

 

[miamited]

Typical Leftist talk--hate America. We're bullies, and we should just lay down and die, to let the oppressors of the world take over. What a solution to all our problems, right? Or really, what I think you want is to have Trump removed--it's really a political concern, isn't it?

Oh the drama! If we don't have tariffs then we're just going to lay down and die. China is going to take over the world if we don't apply tariffs.
And no, my concern over the effects of tariffs is not a political concern, it is an economic one. But you are free to see and understand my thinking as you see fit.