The Jehovah’s Witnesses Teach Jesus is Mighty God

[SolaScriptura]

The Jehovah’s Witnesses Teach Jesus is Mighty God

In John chapter 1, verse 1, the JW’s have translated the Greek, “kai theos ēn ho logos”, as “and the Word was a god”. They also dedicate a section in their Kingdom Interlinear translation of the New Testament, trying to justify this reading, from false quotations of Greek scholars, who actually say, that this should read, “and the Word was God”.

The JW’s argue that Jesus Christ is “a god”, and Jehovah alone is “God”. This is completely contradicted by their own translation, in their New World translation, for Isaiah 9:6, which is a Prophecy on the Lord Jesus Christ.

“For a child has been born to usc, A son has been given to us; And the rulership* will rest on his shoulderd. His name will be called Wonderful Counselore, Mighty Godf, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace” (NWT 2013 edition)

There is no doubt as to Who is Child is, as we can see from the references used in the NWT. We have the letter “c”, which refer to Luke 1:15 and 2:11, both on the Birth of Jesus Christ. Then we have “*”, which has in a note, Or “government; princely rule.”. Next, “e”, with references to Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 7:28, 29; 12:42, which are for the First Coming and Ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. The letter “f”, has references to Psalm 45:3, which is on the use of the Hebrew, “gib·bō·wr” (mighty one), and John 1:18, where the NWT reads, “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him”. In the Greek, both “theon” and “theos”, and without the article (ton, ho), in which case they have exactly the same meaning, “God”. Because of the theology of the JW’s, they translate the second as “god”, as it refers to Jesus Christ. This is the same perversion of the Truth, that they use in John 1:1, when the have the false reading, “and the Word was a god”.

It is clear from what we read in the NWT on Isaiah 9:6, that this verse is speaking about the Lord Jesus Christ. It is also clear, that the NWT has translated the Hebrew, “’êl Gibbôr”, as “Mighty God”, and not “mighty hero”, or “mighty god”, as some do. This is exactly how the NWT reads in Isaiah 10:21, where we also have, “’êl Gibbôr”, where it is used for “Jehovah”, as in the NWT.

Here is solid evidence from the Bible that is published by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, that Jesus Christ is “Mighty God”. I have read arguments from the JW’s, where they say, Jesus Christ is “Mighty God”, but He is not “Almighty God”. This does not address the fact, that they admit to TWO Persons, Who are called “Mighty God”. How does this agree with verses like Isaiah 44:8, “Is there a ’ĕ·lō·w·ah besides me?”; and 45:5, “I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no ’ĕ·lō·hîm”? Yet, it is clear, we read in Isaiah 9:6, and 10:21, that there are indeed TWO distinct Persons, Who are equally called, “’êl Gibbôr”.

In fact, the older Jewish Rabbis, understood this passage to refer to The Messiah. In the 1st/2nd century AD, Rabbi Yose HaGelili, said of this passage:

“Thus rabbi Jose, of Galilee, says, ‘The name of the Messiah is shâlôm, as is said in Isa 9:6, “Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.” ‘Ben Sira (fol. 40, of the Amsterdam Edition, 1679) numbers among the eight names of the Messiah those also taken from this passage, Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace. The later Jews, however, have rejected this interpretation, because the Messiah is here described as God” (Albert Barnes Commentary)

About the same time we have the Jewish Targum of Jonathan Ben Uziel the disciple of Hillel (110 BC-10AD; Bab. Meg. 32):

“The prophet saith to the house of David, A child has been born to us, a son has been given to us; and he has taken the law upon himself to keep it, and his name has been called from of old (from eternity, Pauli ed), Wonderful counsellor, Mighty God, He who lives for ever, the Anointed one (or, Messiah), in whose days peace shall increase upon us. Great shall be the splendour of them that observe the law, and of them that preserve peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to build it in judgement and in righteousness from henceforth and for ever: by the Memra of the Lord of hosts shall this be wrought” (Targum Jonathan Ben Uziel. J F Stenning; The Targum of Isaiah, p 32. Oxford 1953 ed, also, Rev. C. W. H. Pauli; Targum Jonathan Ben Uziel: The Chaldee Paraphrase on The Prophet Isaiah; pp.30, 31)

Even those who actually deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, and that the God of the Bible is “Multi-Personal”, and not “Unitarian”, teach that there is more than One Person, in the Old Testament, Who is called GOD.

In Revelation 5:13-14 we read of the WORSHIP that is to be given to BOTH God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

“And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped” (NWT)

The NWT has correctly translated the Greek, “to krátos”, as “the might”, which means “ALL MIGHTY”. The reading, “be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might”, has the meaning, of “ALL”, that there is, is to be ascribed “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb”. Notice the use of “kaí” (and), where it is used for “in addition to”. Whatever is to be rendered to the Father, as ALSO to be rendered to Jesus Christ, EQUALLY.

The Greek scholar, Dr A T Robertson, who the JW’s quote in their appendix on John 1:1, as one of their Greek authorities, says this:

“And to the Lamb (kai tōi arniōi). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne”

This passage in Revelation 5, is one of the strongest Testimonies in the Bible, to the Absolute Deity of Jesus Christ, and His Equality with the Father. These is no other way to understand what John writes here.

The Teaching of the Trinity, which says there is One God, in Three distinct Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, is clearly not a Christian invention, as some falsely teach, as the Old Testament, which is not “Christian”, but Jewish, is clear that God is not “Unitarian”.

The Holy Spirit is also taught to be Yahweh in the Old Testament, as is clear in 2 Samuel 23:2-3, where we have a very clear reference on the Holy Spirit as YHWH:

“The Spirit of Yahweh speaks by me; His word is on my tongue. The God of Israel has spoken; the Rock of Israel has said to me”

The Hebrew word “Spirit”, is “rū·aḥ”, which is feminine in gender. This does not mean that the Holy Spirit is a “female”, but, the word is grammatically in the feminine. The word “speaks”, is the hebrew “dib·ber”, is masculine, as is “ū·mil·lā·ṯōw” (His Word). This means that it is “rū·aḥ Yah·weh”, Who is the subject here, is the One Who Speaks by David. Not simply “the Spirit”, but, “the Spirit of Yahweh (rū·aḥ Yah·weh)”, as there is no distinction here. The words, “The God of Israel has spoken; the Rock of Israel has said to me”, also refer to “rū·aḥ Yah·weh”. The Holy Spirit is here Yahweh and Elohim. As in the Hebrew Old Testament.

How can the Jehovah’s Witnesses say that Jesus Christ is “Mighty God”, which is also used for Jehovah, and yet teach that He is “the first created” by Jehovah? This shows in their own translation, that there are TWO distinct Persons, Jehovah and Jesus Christ, Who are also EQUALLY God, in exactly the same way. How can they teach the same of the Holy Spirit, when it is equally clear, that He is Yahweh?

 

[Hidden In Him]

“For a child has been born to usc, A son has been given to us; And the rulership* will rest on his shoulderd. His name will be called Wonderful Counselore, Mighty Godf, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace” (NWT 2013 edition)

Greetings SS, and hope you are well.

I'm guessing they do the usual sidestep to say the first half of the verse is talking about the Lord Jesus Christ, and the second abruptly switches to talking about God the Father alone. That is the likely JW interpretation, though I could be wrong. If so, it is an unnatural reading, like many of the readings they favor.

Blessings,
- H

 

[SolaScriptura]

Greetings SS, and hope you are well.

I'm guessing they do the usual sidestep to say the first half of the verse is talking about the Lord Jesus Christ, and the second abruptly switches to talking about God the Father alone. That is the likely JW interpretation, though I could be wrong. If so, it is an unnatural reading, like many of the readings they favor.

Blessings,
- H

Hi thanks for your post. when I have brought up this verse, I was told that Jesus Christ is in some way "Mighty God", as sent by Jehovah, but not "Almighty God".

This is only their interpretation as their theology forbids them to say Jesus is God. Whether Jesus is Mighty God, or Almighty God, makes no difference, as this now opens up there being more than one Person, Jehovah, as God, as Jesus Christ clearly also is.

 

[live2blieve]

Hi thanks for your post. when I have brought up this verse, I was told that Jesus Christ is in some way "Mighty God", as sent by Jehovah, but not "Almighty God".

This is only their interpretation as their theology forbids them to say Jesus is God. Whether Jesus is Mighty God, or Almighty God, makes no difference, as this now opens up there being more than one Person, Jehovah, as God, as Jesus Christ clearly also is.

JW believe that Jesus (correctly Yahshua) is archangel Michael: https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/bible-teach/who-is-michael-the-archangel-jesus/

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hi thanks for your post. when I have brought up this verse, I was told that Jesus Christ is in some way "Mighty God", as sent by Jehovah, but not "Almighty God".

If that's their interpretation it's pretty bad, LoL.

 

[Hidden In Him]

JW believe that Jesus (correctly Yahshua) is archangel Michael: https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/bible-teach/who-is-michael-the-archangel-jesus/

I'm sure he's aware of that, L2B. This is more of an apologetics piece on a passage that is apparently very difficult for JWs to handle.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

The Jehovah’s Witnesses Teach Jesus is Mighty God

In John chapter 1, verse 1, the JW’s have translated the Greek, “kai theos ēn ho logos”, as “and the Word was a god”. They also dedicate a section in their Kingdom Interlinear translation of the New Testament, trying to justify this reading, from false quotations of Greek scholars, who actually say, that this should read, “and the Word was God”.

The JW’s argue that Jesus Christ is “a god”, and Jehovah alone is “God”. This is completely contradicted by their own translation, in their New World translation, for Isaiah 9:6, which is a Prophecy on the Lord Jesus Christ.

“For a child has been born to usc, A son has been given to us; And the rulership* will rest on his shoulderd. His name will be called Wonderful Counselore, Mighty Godf, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace” (NWT 2013 edition)

There is no doubt as to Who is Child is, as we can see from the references used in the NWT. We have the letter “c”, which refer to Luke 1:15 and 2:11, both on the Birth of Jesus Christ. Then we have “*”, which has in a note, Or “government; princely rule.”. Next, “e”, with references to Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 7:28, 29; 12:42, which are for the First Coming and Ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. The letter “f”, has references to Psalm 45:3, which is on the use of the Hebrew, “gib·bō·wr” (mighty one), and John 1:18, where the NWT reads, “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him”. In the Greek, both “theon” and “theos”, and without the article (ton, ho), in which case they have exactly the same meaning, “God”. Because of the theology of the JW’s, they translate the second as “god”, as it refers to Jesus Christ. This is the same perversion of the Truth, that they use in John 1:1, when the have the false reading, “and the Word was a god”.

It is clear from what we read in the NWT on Isaiah 9:6, that this verse is speaking about the Lord Jesus Christ. It is also clear, that the NWT has translated the Hebrew, “’êl Gibbôr”, as “Mighty God”, and not “mighty hero”, or “mighty god”, as some do. This is exactly how the NWT reads in Isaiah 10:21, where we also have, “’êl Gibbôr”, where it is used for “Jehovah”, as in the NWT.

Here is solid evidence from the Bible that is published by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, that Jesus Christ is “Mighty God”. I have read arguments from the JW’s, where they say, Jesus Christ is “Mighty God”, but He is not “Almighty God”. This does not address the fact, that they admit to TWO Persons, Who are called “Mighty God”. How does this agree with verses like Isaiah 44:8, “Is there a ’ĕ·lō·w·ah besides me?”; and 45:5, “I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no ’ĕ·lō·hîm”? Yet, it is clear, we read in Isaiah 9:6, and 10:21, that there are indeed TWO distinct Persons, Who are equally called, “’êl Gibbôr”.

In fact, the older Jewish Rabbis, understood this passage to refer to The Messiah. In the 1st/2nd century AD, Rabbi Yose HaGelili, said of this passage:

“Thus rabbi Jose, of Galilee, says, ‘The name of the Messiah is shâlôm, as is said in Isa 9:6, “Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.” ‘Ben Sira (fol. 40, of the Amsterdam Edition, 1679) numbers among the eight names of the Messiah those also taken from this passage, Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace. The later Jews, however, have rejected this interpretation, because the Messiah is here described as God” (Albert Barnes Commentary)

About the same time we have the Jewish Targum of Jonathan Ben Uziel the disciple of Hillel (110 BC-10AD; Bab. Meg. 32):

“The prophet saith to the house of David, A child has been born to us, a son has been given to us; and he has taken the law upon himself to keep it, and his name has been called from of old (from eternity, Pauli ed), Wonderful counsellor, Mighty God, He who lives for ever, the Anointed one (or, Messiah), in whose days peace shall increase upon us. Great shall be the splendour of them that observe the law, and of them that preserve peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to build it in judgement and in righteousness from henceforth and for ever: by the Memra of the Lord of hosts shall this be wrought” (Targum Jonathan Ben Uziel. J F Stenning; The Targum of Isaiah, p 32. Oxford 1953 ed, also, Rev. C. W. H. Pauli; Targum Jonathan Ben Uziel: The Chaldee Paraphrase on The Prophet Isaiah; pp.30, 31)

Even those who actually deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, and that the God of the Bible is “Multi-Personal”, and not “Unitarian”, teach that there is more than One Person, in the Old Testament, Who is called GOD.

In Revelation 5:13-14 we read of the WORSHIP that is to be given to BOTH God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

“And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped” (NWT)

The NWT has correctly translated the Greek, “to krátos”, as “the might”, which means “ALL MIGHTY”. The reading, “be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might”, has the meaning, of “ALL”, that there is, is to be ascribed “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb”. Notice the use of “kaí” (and), where it is used for “in addition to”. Whatever is to be rendered to the Father, as ALSO to be rendered to Jesus Christ, EQUALLY.

The Greek scholar, Dr A T Robertson, who the JW’s quote in their appendix on John 1:1, as one of their Greek authorities, says this:

“And to the Lamb (kai tōi arniōi). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne”

This passage in Revelation 5, is one of the strongest Testimonies in the Bible, to the Absolute Deity of Jesus Christ, and His Equality with the Father. These is no other way to understand what John writes here.

The Teaching of the Trinity, which says there is One God, in Three distinct Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, is clearly not a Christian invention, as some falsely teach, as the Old Testament, which is not “Christian”, but Jewish, is clear that God is not “Unitarian”.

The Holy Spirit is also taught to be Yahweh in the Old Testament, as is clear in 2 Samuel 23:2-3, where we have a very clear reference on the Holy Spirit as YHWH:

“The Spirit of Yahweh speaks by me; His word is on my tongue. The God of Israel has spoken; the Rock of Israel has said to me”

The Hebrew word “Spirit”, is “rū·aḥ”, which is feminine in gender. This does not mean that the Holy Spirit is a “female”, but, the word is grammatically in the feminine. The word “speaks”, is the hebrew “dib·ber”, is masculine, as is “ū·mil·lā·ṯōw” (His Word). This means that it is “rū·aḥ Yah·weh”, Who is the subject here, is the One Who Speaks by David. Not simply “the Spirit”, but, “the Spirit of Yahweh (rū·aḥ Yah·weh)”, as there is no distinction here. The words, “The God of Israel has spoken; the Rock of Israel has said to me”, also refer to “rū·aḥ Yah·weh”. The Holy Spirit is here Yahweh and Elohim. As in the Hebrew Old Testament.

How can the Jehovah’s Witnesses say that Jesus Christ is “Mighty God”, which is also used for Jehovah, and yet teach that He is “the first created” by Jehovah? This shows in their own translation, that there are TWO distinct Persons, Jehovah and Jesus Christ, Who are also EQUALLY God, in exactly the same way. How can they teach the same of the Holy Spirit, when it is equally clear, that He is Yahweh?

I think the JWs are, like the Mormons, part of the reaction in the 1800s against the strong Trinitarianism of the Christian church at that time. Rationalism could not stand a mystery like the biblical belief in the Trinity. Therefore, they devised ways to deny the truth while trying to use their slanted Bible translation to support their heretical beliefs.

 

[SolaScriptura]

JW believe that Jesus (correctly Yahshua) is archangel Michael: https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/bible-teach/who-is-michael-the-archangel-jesus/

yes. because in their "theology" Jesus Christ is created by Jehovah. which is the highest blasphemy

 

[locust]

yes. because in their "theology" Jesus Christ is created by Jehovah. which is the highest blasphemy

what about the part in the Bible where it says Jesus is a creation of God through which God had all things created

 

[Free]

what about the part in the Bible where it says Jesus is a creation of God through which God had all things created

Which part of the Bible says that "Jesus is a creation of God"?

 

[locust]

Which part of the Bible says that "Jesus is a creation of God"?

I cant help but notice you are set in your ways .that is to say regardless of what you would be shown there is the high probability it would be rejected out right before logic of scripture is applied .
there is John 1:1 '' In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.''
in the beginning of what? but the creative works God is credited with. ''in the beginning'' indicates there was a start.
that first thing was someone much like him we now know his name to Jesus .
now lets go to the book of Proverbs 8
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.''

then in the book Colossians 1:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So ya, all those verses do a fairly good job of pointing out that Jesus the son of God had a beginning. Even to say Jesus is a son gives heavy credence as son's do not father them selves. but have relied on their father to make it happen. Shalom

 

[Free]

I cant help but notice you are set in your ways .that is to say regardless of what you would be shown there is the high probability it would be rejected out right before logic of scripture is applied .

Not at all, and what you've stated goes for everyone, including yourself. I've studied and debated this for over 20 years. I'll change my views if someone can show why the orthodox Christian view of God--the Trinity--based on the logic of Scripture, is wrong.

there is John 1:1 '' In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.''
in the beginning of what? but the creative works God is credited with. ''in the beginning'' indicates there was a start.

Looking at the first clause, "In the beginning" is clearly a reference to Gen 1:1. John’s readers would have expected “God” next, but instead see “was the Word.” It is significant that God created by speaking and here John says that the Word was in the beginning “with God” yet also, in some way, “was God.” He then states in verse 3 that the Word was involved in the creation of all that came into being. The word "was" is the Greek, en, which is a form of eimi (I Am), and speaks of continuous action in the past; that is, absolute preexistence before any creation. What that means is that when the beginning began, the Word was already in existence, and hence, there was never a time when he did not exist. The very same applies to the Father, who has absolute preexistence. John further clarifies and supports this in verse 3.

In the second clause, "and the Word was with God," it is the Greek pros that is translated as "with." But it isn't merely speaking of being together or near. It is in the accusative and expresses “direction towards,” as in relationship and communion, implying intimacy. It is important to note here that in the Greek the article is present, so it literally reads, "the Word was with [the] God." So, God is a reference to someone other than the Word, at a minimum it is a reference to the Father.

When it comes to the last clause, "the Word was God," it is significant that "God" doesn't have the article in the Greek, as it did in the preceding clause. If the article had been present then "Word" and "God" become interchangeable— they would be one and the same—which is the error of Modalism/Oneness theology. But this whole passage is about the logos, who the logos is, not who God is, so John purposely doesn't use the article to avoid equating the two words. Therefore, it can only have a qualitative meaning, that is, that the Word was divine in nature, or deity. However, since there is only one God, it is rightly translated as "the Word was God."

You want to talk about the logic of Scripture, well here it is:

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

If "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made," then it is logically impossible that the Word came into existence.

Paul makes this same argument in 1 Cor. 8:6, which some consider to be his expansion on the Shema. We could look at John 8:58, where Jesus claims eternal existence. We could also look at Heb. 1:10-12, where the Father says that the Son is Yahweh who created everything by way of applying Ps. 102:25-27 to the Son. We could then look at Rom. 10:9-13, where Paul equates confessing "Jesus is Lord" with calling "on the name of Lord," that is, calling on the name of Yahweh, for salvation (Joel 2:32).

And on it goes, throughout the NT.

that first thing was someone much like him we now know his name to Jesus .

Again, the language and grammar John uses completely rules out that the Word (the Son) was created or otherwise came into being. He makes it clear that the Word is as eternal as the Father is, having been in relationship with the Father and being in nature God.

now lets go to the book of Proverbs 8
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.''

I don't consider this to be the Word, but just the personification of wisdom, which is female.

then in the book Colossians 1:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Again we see the very same logic that John uses. If "all things were created by him," then it is logically impossible that the Son himself is created. If just one thing was not created by him, then verses 16 and 17 are false. So, if he was created, or came into being, then he is that one thing that he did not create, making those verses false.

We can see then that "firstborn" in verse 15 simply cannot have anything to do with being born, being created, or otherwise coming into being. How do we then understand "firstborn" as it relates to the Son? We look to its other uses in Scripture:

Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son, (ESV)

Psa 89:20 I have found David, my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him,
...
Psa 89:27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. (ESV)

Jer 31:9 With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (ESV)

We see then that "firstborn" has meanings which are metaphorical. We know from reading the Bible that the firstborn had certain rights and privileges, but we also see in the verses above that it seemed those whom God loved he called his firstborn, even though they were not in any literal sense his firstborn. The use of firstborn can mean preeminence without the referent having actually been born.

Looking at the significance of Psalms 89:27, it is a messianic Psalm where God says of David, "I will make him the firstborn." Here, firstborn clearly means that God will put him in a position of preeminence, "the highest of the kings of the earth." David is here the prototype of the coming Messiah, the "firstborn," and has nothing to do with David's being born or coming into being.

In relation to the Son then, we can understand that Col 1:15 is speaking of Jesus's place of preeminence, his sovereignty, and his lordship, over all creation, and in verse 18, the Church.

so ya ,all those verses do a fairly good job of pointing out that Jesus the son of God had a begging .

Not a single one shows that the Son had a beginning.

even to say Jesus is a son gives heavy credence as son's do not father them selves. but have relied on their father to make it happen. Shalom

Please provide just one example of a son that is of a different nature than his father. If a son is always of the same nature as his father, and he always is, then the Son must necessarily also have the eternal, self-existent nature of the Father. It necessarily follows that the Son has existed for as long as the Father has. If he hasn't, as you are saying, then he doesn't have the same nature as the Father. That would mean that the use of the Father and Son relationship tells us nothing; it is meaningless. It would also mean that John 1:1c, Rom. 9:5, Phil. 2:6, etc., are false.

The NT makes it very clear that the Son cannot have had a beginning.

 

[locust]

Not at all, and what you've stated goes for everyone, including yourself. I've studied and debated this for over 20 years. I'll change my views if someone can show why the orthodox Christian view of God--the Trinity--based on the logic of Scripture, is wrong.

Jesus's statement in John 5:19, where he says he only does what he sees the Father doing. This doesn't mean Jesus is powerless, but rather that his actions are in perfect alignment with and obedience to the Father's will. He is not acting independently, but rather as an extension of the Father's will and power. Like it or not equals can not tell other equals what to do or how to do it ,nor would another equal be submissive to another equal.
Only a lesser god would be submissive to a greater God.

 

[locust]

Looking at the first clause, "In the beginning" is clearly a reference to Gen 1:1. John’s readers would have expected “God” next, but instead see “was the Word.” It is significant that God created by speaking and here John says that the Word was in the beginning “with God” yet also, in some way, “was God.” He then states in verse 3 that the Word was involved in the creation of all that came into being. The word "was" is the Greek, en, which is a form of eimi (I Am), and speaks of continuous action in the past; that is, absolute preexistence before any creation. What that means is that when the beginning began, the Word was already in existence, and hence, there was never a time when he did not exist. The very same applies to the Father, who has absolute preexistence. John further clarifies and supports this in verse 3.

in the begging clearly indicates something at some point there was nothing and then by action of God things happen . it does not have to be any more complex than that .

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I cant help but notice you are set in your ways .that is to say regardless of what you would be shown there is the high probability it would be rejected out right before logic of scripture is applied .
there is John 1:1 '' In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.''
in the beginning of what? but the creative works God is credited with. ''in the beginning'' indicates there was a start.
that first thing was someone much like him we now know his name to Jesus .
now lets go to the book of Proverbs 8
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.''

then in the book Colossians 1:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

so ya ,all those verses do a fairly good job of pointing out that Jesus the son of God had a begging .
even to say Jesus is a son gives heavy credence as son's do not father them selves. but have relied on their father to make it happen. Shalom

locust, you say, "there is John 1:1 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'
in the beginning of what? but the creative works God is credited with. 'in the beginning' indicates there was a start.
that first thing was someone much like him we now know his name to Jesus."

You're using you own reasoning instead of the Bible to explain a passage. Paul says,

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Therefore, we need the Bible to explain the Bible, not our own interpretation, as Peter also says,

2Pe 1:19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

As a result, the "in the beginning" of John 1:1 parallels Genesis 1:1, which clearly talks about the beginning of this creation: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

In dealing with John 1:1, you conveniently sidestep John's statement that "the Word was God" and with God, clearly pointing to two Persons in one God, while Jesus tells us in chapters 14, 15, and 16 that another Person is involved in creation and in believers' lives.

My suggestion is that you might consider letting Scripture interpret itself instead of relying on your own reasoning powers and that we need to accept the idea that the Bible has mysteries that the human mind cannot fully understand like the fact that the Gospel of John definitely shows us that God is three Persons in one God.

In Proverbs 8, Solomon is personifying Wisdom poetically as a "woman" who shares her application of God's law to our lives, not the second Person of God, who later became Jesus:

Pro 8:1 Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice?
Pro 8:2 On the heights beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand;
Pro 8:3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud:

In Colossians, Jesus is the firstborn of all creation by being born fully human of Mary just as he exists all the time as fully God. The firstborn son was the inheritor of the father's estate in those days. His full humanity is being highlighted in Colossians 1:15-17. However, you ignore the verse after those in which Paul says, "Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell." Why do you pick out some verses and ignore others?

 

[Free]

Jesus's statement in John 5:19, where he says he only does what he sees the Father doing. This doesn't mean Jesus is powerless, but rather that his actions are in perfect alignment with and obedience to the Father's will. He is not acting independently, but rather as an extension of the Father's will and power.

I completely agree.

Like it or not equals can not tell other equals what to do or how to do it ,nor would another equal be submissive to another equal.

That is to ignore much biblical context.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

There is a lot that can be said about those verses. Regardless, the Father and Son have different functions or roles within the Trinity, but, as James R. White says, difference in function does not mean inferiority of nature. Note that Jesus, or rather the Son, "was in the form of God . . . but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant." That is, he was God in nature and then took on the nature of a human. He was actually human, he didn't just appear human, so it follows that he was actually God. (Note how similar that is to John 1:1.) It is in that state--both God and man--that he humbled himself to do the will of the Father.

Only a lesser god would be submissive to a greater God.

There is no actual such being that is "a lesser god." There is the one true, living God, and then there are false gods.

 

[locust]

There is no actual such being that is "a lesser god." There is the one true, living God, and then there are false gods.

John 1:1 refers to God and then to another god , the god as it turns out is Jesus . Jesus said speaking of himself Matthew 11:11 ''Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.''

 

[locust]

@locust, you say, "there is John 1:1 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'
in the beginning of what? but the creative works God is credited with. 'in the beginning' indicates there was a start.
that first thing was someone much like him we now know his name to Jesus."

does it really surprise you that there was a start ? there had to be a start .not speaking of God having a start but of his creative works .
God is perfect in every way ,so perfect that it stands to reason every thing created would also be perfect ,but that does not seem to be the case . nothing is his equal . as great as heaven is it pales when compared to him. what could God do but create a helper that could do the things God wanted done.
Proverbs 8:22 “ The LORD God himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.
23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.''
30 Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;I rejoiced before him all the time;

 

[Free]

John 1:1 refers to God and then to another god , the god as it turns out is Jesus .

Except that, as I previously stated, there is no such thing as a being that is a god. There is no other actual deity than God. He tells us this himself:

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
…
Deu 4:39 know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:2 “There is none holy like the LORD: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
…
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

(All ESV.)

If God himself says "there is no other" and "Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me," then we should probably take him at his word. That precludes the idea that Jesus is a lesser god; it precludes the idea that lesser gods actually exist.

Jesus said speaking of himself Matthew 11:11 ''Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.''

What are you trying to say with this? Note that Jesus states that "among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater," yet John the Baptist himself says that Jesus is greater than he is (John 1:15, 27; 3:30).

 

[locust]

not going to question that there is but one true God .
that would be a silly thing to do. there are how ever many false god's

1 Corinthians 8:5​

5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),