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Gods land promise to Israel (Gen 17:8)
- Thread starter jdbrown
- Start date
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Lehigh3
Guest
jdbrown,
I hope this may help:
God's covenantal dealings with Israel most of which are stated as being eternal, everlasting or forever, none of which however in their redemptive settings necessitates an endlessness of duration requirement; but are indicative of God's dealings with His specific people for a specific purpose, in a specific way, according to a specific period, epoch, era or age; thus longevity when dealing with man does NOT necessitate endlessness nor timelessness. We have for example 'Sodom and Gomorrah' – Jude 1:7 tells us that these cities and their surrounds would suffer "the vengeance of eternal fire" yet none of these are still burning today – eternally. Clearly the unquenchable fire was indicative of the TOTALITY of destruction that was wrought upon them.
Isa 34:8-10 For it is the day of the LORD’s vengeance, the year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its dust into brimstone; its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever.
Some suppose such words as "shall not be quenched" or "unquenchable fire" to mean such fire of endless duration, yet in the Scriptures such as an unquenchable fire is one that cannot be quenched nor extinguished until its full purpose has been reached and accomplished. If for instance a house has been totally consumed by fire, the fire it is said, strictly speaking, was unquenchable, and no effort made to put it out could extinguish it; yet no one would contend that the fire, left to itself, would never expire of itself – there was totality of destruction but not ongoing destruction.
To labour the point; these words eternal, everlasting and forever need not always be locked to the meaning of endlessness or longevity. Scripture gives many examples of life, land, laws, circumcision and time as being forever and ever, everlasting or eternal, yet in many of these instances they are governed or determined by a definitive period or time frame in which God is dealing with a specific people in a specific way for a specific purpose – and can in no way be seen as meaning ageless or ceaseless.
The following table shows this to be the case; promises are made "eternally" yet with a Divinely predetermined end or fulfilment in view:
FOREVER: ß EVERLASTING COVENANTS à CEASE:
Gen 17:10-13 – CIRCUMCISION – Gal 5:1-6; 6:15
Ex 12:14, 17, 24 – PASSOVER – Col 2:16-17
Ex 29:9; 40:15 – AARONIC PRIESTHOOD – Heb 7:11-17
Lev 16:29, 31, 34; 23:31 – DAY OF ATONEMENT – Heb 9:23-28; 10:1-18
Psa 119:151-152, 160 – RIGHTEOUS ORDINANCES – Gal 3:24-25; Heb 9:10
Ex 31:16-17 – THE SABBATH – Col 2:16-17
Further we must consider "how" language is used in the Bible – if we stick dogmatically with what is called a "wooden literalism" modality for understanding Scripture, then we will invariably become hamstrung in our understanding of truth, as these examples will demonstrate:
Psa 21:4 He asked life from You, and You gave it to him-- Length of days forever and ever. ["Length of days" is a reference to physicality – hence limited]
Psa 119:44 So shall I keep Your law continually, forever and ever. [Poetic licence]
Isa 30:8 Now go, write it before them on a tablet, And note it on a scroll, That it may be for time to come, forever and ever: [Time, epochs i.e., eras]
Jer 7:7 …then I will cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever. [Continuance in the Land was always conditional upon Israel's obedience, even though initially all these promises were fulfilled Josh 21:43-45]
Gen 17:8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." [As above]
Gen 17:13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. [Are we bound to this everlasting type? – as someone once said: "well it's no skin off my nose". Deut 30:6 shows circumcision's true intent in]
Lev 16:34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year." And he did as the LORD commanded Moses. [Fortunately for us, Jesus was the everlasting or ultimate sacrifice Heb 9:26; 10:12]
Num 25:13 …and it shall be to him and his descendants after him a covenant of an everlasting priesthood, because he was zealous for his God, and made atonement for the children of Israel." [What a difference a new covenant makes – Heb 7:12]
Isa 24:5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. [Can logic allow for that which is supposedly "unending" if that's what "everlasting" means, to be broken?]
[FONT="]Again… each various expression as outlined above is [/FONT] determined by and is[FONT="] to be understood in terms of "the age" in which each is applicable [/FONT] – thus any sense of unending or never ending are clearly bracketed by predetermined ends.
[An excerpt from David Embry-2005]
I hope this may help:
God's covenantal dealings with Israel most of which are stated as being eternal, everlasting or forever, none of which however in their redemptive settings necessitates an endlessness of duration requirement; but are indicative of God's dealings with His specific people for a specific purpose, in a specific way, according to a specific period, epoch, era or age; thus longevity when dealing with man does NOT necessitate endlessness nor timelessness. We have for example 'Sodom and Gomorrah' – Jude 1:7 tells us that these cities and their surrounds would suffer "the vengeance of eternal fire" yet none of these are still burning today – eternally. Clearly the unquenchable fire was indicative of the TOTALITY of destruction that was wrought upon them.
Isa 34:8-10 For it is the day of the LORD’s vengeance, the year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its dust into brimstone; its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever.
Some suppose such words as "shall not be quenched" or "unquenchable fire" to mean such fire of endless duration, yet in the Scriptures such as an unquenchable fire is one that cannot be quenched nor extinguished until its full purpose has been reached and accomplished. If for instance a house has been totally consumed by fire, the fire it is said, strictly speaking, was unquenchable, and no effort made to put it out could extinguish it; yet no one would contend that the fire, left to itself, would never expire of itself – there was totality of destruction but not ongoing destruction.
To labour the point; these words eternal, everlasting and forever need not always be locked to the meaning of endlessness or longevity. Scripture gives many examples of life, land, laws, circumcision and time as being forever and ever, everlasting or eternal, yet in many of these instances they are governed or determined by a definitive period or time frame in which God is dealing with a specific people in a specific way for a specific purpose – and can in no way be seen as meaning ageless or ceaseless.
The following table shows this to be the case; promises are made "eternally" yet with a Divinely predetermined end or fulfilment in view:
FOREVER: ß EVERLASTING COVENANTS à CEASE:
Gen 17:10-13 – CIRCUMCISION – Gal 5:1-6; 6:15
Ex 12:14, 17, 24 – PASSOVER – Col 2:16-17
Ex 29:9; 40:15 – AARONIC PRIESTHOOD – Heb 7:11-17
Lev 16:29, 31, 34; 23:31 – DAY OF ATONEMENT – Heb 9:23-28; 10:1-18
Psa 119:151-152, 160 – RIGHTEOUS ORDINANCES – Gal 3:24-25; Heb 9:10
Ex 31:16-17 – THE SABBATH – Col 2:16-17
Further we must consider "how" language is used in the Bible – if we stick dogmatically with what is called a "wooden literalism" modality for understanding Scripture, then we will invariably become hamstrung in our understanding of truth, as these examples will demonstrate:
Psa 21:4 He asked life from You, and You gave it to him-- Length of days forever and ever. ["Length of days" is a reference to physicality – hence limited]
Psa 119:44 So shall I keep Your law continually, forever and ever. [Poetic licence]
Isa 30:8 Now go, write it before them on a tablet, And note it on a scroll, That it may be for time to come, forever and ever: [Time, epochs i.e., eras]
Jer 7:7 …then I will cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever. [Continuance in the Land was always conditional upon Israel's obedience, even though initially all these promises were fulfilled Josh 21:43-45]
Gen 17:8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." [As above]
Gen 17:13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. [Are we bound to this everlasting type? – as someone once said: "well it's no skin off my nose". Deut 30:6 shows circumcision's true intent in]
Lev 16:34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year." And he did as the LORD commanded Moses. [Fortunately for us, Jesus was the everlasting or ultimate sacrifice Heb 9:26; 10:12]
Num 25:13 …and it shall be to him and his descendants after him a covenant of an everlasting priesthood, because he was zealous for his God, and made atonement for the children of Israel." [What a difference a new covenant makes – Heb 7:12]
Isa 24:5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. [Can logic allow for that which is supposedly "unending" if that's what "everlasting" means, to be broken?]
[FONT="]Again… each various expression as outlined above is [/FONT] determined by and is[FONT="] to be understood in terms of "the age" in which each is applicable [/FONT] – thus any sense of unending or never ending are clearly bracketed by predetermined ends.
[An excerpt from David Embry-2005]
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
That promise in Gen 17:8 is heaven and its for Abraham and His Spiritual seed.
Sodom and Gomorrah could have suffered eternal fire,they were burned in their flesh bodies and then continued to burn in hell and are still burning even today. Is sounds horrible but I do believe that is what that means.
Adullam
Member
- Mar 28, 2009
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Olam definitely means forever.
The problem is how one sees Israel.
Israel is BOTH a nation AND a congregation (church) of nations (Gentiles).
‘I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a congregation of nations shall proceed from you, and kings shall come from your body'" (Gen 35:11)
In Hebrew this reads as "goy vekehal hagoyim"
The problem is how one sees Israel.
Israel is BOTH a nation AND a congregation (church) of nations (Gentiles).
‘I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a congregation of nations shall proceed from you, and kings shall come from your body'" (Gen 35:11)
In Hebrew this reads as "goy vekehal hagoyim"
TRUTH over TRADITION
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- Dec 10, 2010
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The verse in Gen. 35 is NOT a promise made to Israel, it is instead one given by God to Abraham who is the father of MANY nations, not just Israel.
tim-from-pa
Member
- Aug 4, 2005
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The promise of many nations was passed down as the birthright. This was part of the covenant to Abraham. This went to Isaac, and then Jacob in which Genesis 35:11 is a reiteration of that promise.
If God made many nations from Abraham in other peoples not of the promised lineage, that's an acceptable added benefit, but in and of itself does not fulfill the birthright promises passed down. Paul was rather emphatic on this point when he said, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called."
Therefore, although you are technically correct that this promise to Jacob originated in Abraham, the promise is the same to Jacob that his seed will become many nations. This birthright promise was then passed to his son Joseph.
It's all in the genealogies; there's so many books in the bible that have them.
TRUTH over TRADITION
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Jacob and Abraham were made differing promises. The many nations promise was to Abraham whilest the nation (singular) was to Jacob/Israel. The "seed" promise made to Abraham was reckoned through Isaac, but let us not forget that God even promised to make Ismael into many nations (Gen. 17:20).
Adullam
Member
- Mar 28, 2009
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Nice try but incorrect!
10And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. 11And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
tim-from-pa
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Nice try but incorrect!
10And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. 11And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
I second what you said. Yes, the promise of many nations did go to Jacob as well.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
- Dec 10, 2010
- 1,369
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Nice try but incorrect!
10And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. 11And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
My apologies Adullam & Tim, I was indeed mistaken.
So now I wish to raise a question. Since Jacob was to have a nation and groups of nations come from him, who were those groups of nations? I am presuming that Israel (the Northern kingdom) which was dispersed among the nations and came to be known as the "lost" by the time of Jesus may fit the bill.
tim-from-pa
Member
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You are correct. The house of Joseph went with the rest of the "lost tribes" yet they were the ones to become many nations. If one searches the scriptures and finds the descriptions of Israel, the direction they are said to have gone to, and the fact that (according to Hosea) they would become the "sons of the Living God", I can't help but to embrace the idea that the house of Israel became the Christian nations of today, specifically migrating to NW Europe, the isles, and colonizing around the world as they nationally pushed the people to the ends of the earth, militarily mighty, yet became a missionary peoples. These same people are said to be "Gentiles" and they think of themselves as Gentiles, but in fact have genealogical roots in Israel. They are just as much Israelites, whether they know it or not, as the Jews.
In the bible, we always have dual ideas. There are contrasts. Judah (the Jews) fit to law and still follow it while Israel fits to the Spirit and follows Christ. When people fail to see that these same people are indeed the Israelites, then all types of "replacement theology" and whatnot creeps in. They see the "Gentiles" as having the blessings, so they call them the new Israel of God. But in fact, many of these people are the old Israel given that new heart that God promised, and the blessings he already promised Israel in the OT.
And there's more, the prophets also said that these same people were to mix with the nations and become racially diverse. This both nationally and spiritually fits in with the gospel idea that salvation in Christ is indeed open to all.
Adullam
Member
- Mar 28, 2009
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No problem!!
The 10 lost tribes represent Ephraim and vice versa. These have been spread over the whole earth as seed and are now lost in themselves. The seed is now spiritual not DNA. So any Gentile that truly comes to Christ is of the Israel of God in Ephraim.Ephraim means double fruit.
We are then to show the fruit of the Spirit as well as the fruit of righteousness.
Well first off the promise was not given to Israel, it was given to Abraham and his seed after him.
Gen 17v7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gal 3v26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Rom 2v28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 9v6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not ALL ISRAEL, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
Rom 4:13
Rom 4:13
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
The Promise of the everlasting possession of the land of Canaan, [ Gen 17:8] embraces the world. The Final reward or Inheritance speaking of final Salvation and Glorification of the People of God, The Whole seed of Abraham. This will be given to Abraham and His seed of the Faith, not His seed of Natural Israel or descendants. Heb 11:9-16
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Rom 4:13
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
The Promise of the everlasting possession of the land of Canaan, [ Gen 17:8] embraces the world. The Final reward or Inheritance speaking of final Salvation and Glorification of the People of God, The Whole seed of Abraham. This will be given to Abraham and His seed of the Faith, not His seed of Natural Israel or descendants. Heb 11:9-16
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Sinthesis
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- Feb 23, 2009
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The land promise "might not be permanent" because the covenant could be broken, as verse 14 shows. There were consequences for breaking the covenant as the Bible details elsewhere. The 'land' now belongs to the only person who could keep the covenant perfectly; Jesus, and He does with it as He will.:yes
If Jesus is doing with His inheritance in a way you don't agree with, take it up with Him.
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Elijah674
Guest
Naw, God will keep His Promise to His Obedient ones when the Earth is Recreated & sinIS GONE FROM IT!
After the 1ooo year's are over & the wicked come up in the second resurection to be oblitetrated. Nah. 1:9 + Obad. 1:16
--Elijah
After the 1ooo year's are over & the wicked come up in the second resurection to be oblitetrated. Nah. 1:9 + Obad. 1:16--Elijah
You Quote:
Jude 1:7 tells us that these cities and their surrounds would suffer "the vengeance of eternal fire" yet none of these are still burning today – eternally.
My Reply:
Jude 1;7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
I do not believe that the description given in this scripture is intended as you paint it.
For instance,..a building of stone and wood cannot commit fornication,..it does not see nor can it talk or walk.
But the people who represent sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them,..are in hell today suffering the vengence of eternal fire.The body is made of flesh and bone and will disappear as a vapor,..but the soul,..which is the true self of a being is eternal.
L
Lehigh3
Guest
Well, pretrib (I can see by the name we will be caught in arguments! lol but true)
Nevertheless, eternal punishment in hell is for another thread. You can choose to worship a God that punishes some (& it isn't even quite clear who- could be a liar or a coward in fact & go to the Lake of Fire ) that punishes a 70 or 80 year life on earth for eternity in some fire if you wish. Destroy or punish for a limited duration- maybe, but never endlessly.
I don't believe that for one second. "eternal" DOESN'T always mean endlessly. In fact, the land (which is this topic) was given to Abraham "forever" - in this sense "forever" is meant as an "eon" or an age. And that land promise was fulfilled in Joshua's time.
The land is Mine! (Lev.25:23) It belongs to God.
And the old Jerusalem became the spiritual Jerusalem in the New Covenant in Christ.
Zech.14:8-11
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“ The LORD is one,â€
And His name one.
10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
The New Jerusalem is the kingdom of God , where righteousness dwells (same as the Jerusalem which is above- Galatians)
Same as Holy Mt. Zion. = the church in her triumphant state.
You Quote:
but never endlessly.
My Reply:
If not endlessly,..then how long and what happens to them after that duration or is this something you came up with?
You Quote:
And the old Jerusalem became the spiritual Jerusalem in the New Covenant in Christ.
Zech.14:8-11
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“ The LORD is one,â€
And His name one.
My Reply:
Obviously ,..when the Lord returns,..Mount Olivet will split in half and a literal river will spring forth from it.
Ezekiel 47:1-12 tells us that fresh water will flow constantly from under the south end of the Temple and will fill the newly created valley with water that becomes a great river flowing west to the Mediterranean and East to the Dead Sea. A line drawn due west from the place on the Mount Of Olives where Jesus departed would pass through the Eastern Gate of the Temple Mount
.
You Quote:
10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited
My Reply:
No doubt about it,...The Great earthquake of revelation 16;20 will be cause
Jerusalem shall be raised up
You Quote:
The New Jerusalem is the kingdom of God , where righteousness dwells (same as the Jerusalem which is above- Galatians)
My Reply:
Since Jesus described His 2nd Coming as the renewal of all things (Matt. 19:28),it’s reasonable to interpret Rev. 21 as describing Heaven and Earth being restored to the condition they were in before the fall; refreshed, renewed, repaired and rebuilt for Messiah’s Kingdom.In other words..restoring things to it's Adamic condition.Men and women will repopulate the earth,...and at the end of the Lord's 1000 year reign, a Great QWhite Throne Judgement will come to pass and death and hell will both be thrown into the lake of fire.
It is obvious that man will become eternal as they were before the Adamic fall,...But during the 1000 year reign,..there will be planting seasons,..a sun and and moon for light,....and then after the Great White Throne Judgement,...a New Jerusalem will descend from Heaven,.....the length, breadth, and height of it are equal. It is a perfect cube, each side measuring 3000 furlongs, or 12000 in all, equal to 1200 English miles, allowing 8 furlongs to a mile.There will be no need for a sun or a moon.
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