Gods land promise to Israel (Gen 17:8)

[tim-from-pa]

I think the history of the valley is also synonymous with Tophet & ghenna & "the lake of fire" [the valley of the son of Hinnom. This place was near Jerusalem; and had been formerly used for those abominable sacrifices in which the idolatrous Jews had caused their children to pass through the fire to Moloch]

Just as the Lake of Fire is where the dead bodies were burned outside the city- of the Jews after the flesh in AD70,
The man made religion of Rabbinical Judaism today doesn't have much of a greater prophetic or Godly reason to point to dead bones in Israel of others either.

So.... that's your answer? OOOOOkay! I (or anybody else) should have seen that clear association all along. Don't know how we missed it. Then again, I guess us dispy's are into fiction like you said.

 

[Hitch]

OK I see what you are assuming as fulfilled,..but what you do not take into account is that the prophecy has not been completed in it's entirety.

Nice try:biglol . This is a direct quote;
43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.






Its always funny to me when the proud literalist trip on their shoelaces


Pretrib;

' that the prophecy has not been completed in it's entirety'


Joshua;

43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Originally Posted by pretrib
You can attempt to scripturally refute it ..or you can say that I am hi-jacking the thread.
Personally,..I am trying to reveal the truth.
And about the book of revelation in chronological order,...it most definately is.

And as for the topic.......in the days ahead...Israel will obtain all the land that God promised Abraham




Take your pick. heh heh

8“I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Are Israel in possession of all this land today?....of course not.

Even when Joshua was in possession of the land,..even then all the promise was not completed in it's entirety at that time.

Are we not told that at an early period,a colony of the tribe of Dan had to go eleswhere in search of land, because they were to hampered in the allotment they had received? And in the beginning of Judges are we not told that after the death of Joshua Judah and Simeon had a desperate tussle with the Cananites and the perizites who were still in their territories and that in Bezek alone there were slain of them ten thousand men? And is not the whole of the first chapter of Judges a record of the relations of Israel in various places to the original inhabitants, from which it appears that very many of the Canaanites continued to dwell in their land? Surely this was not what God's promise to the fathers was fitted to convey.Had not God promised that He would drive out the seven nations, and give the seed of Abraham possession of the Whole? How then could His Word be said to be implemented when so many of the original inhabitants remained? And in particular, how could the historian of Joshua say so explicitly that "There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel"
In answer to this objection it is to be remarked that God never promised to give the people full posession of the land save through their own exertions made in independance of Him. Their possessions were not to fall into their hands as the manna fell into the wilderness, or as the water gushed from the rock.
The seven nations were not to rush from before them from the moment they crossed the Jordan. God always meant that they were to be instruments for clearing the country. this was never completed in Joshua's time,..nor have yet
the land of canaan become an everlasting possession to Israel as of yet.

Should be noted that some parts of the Abrahamic Covenant have not
been fulfilled totally. Since God promised to give the land of Canaan for an​

everlasting​

possession to Abraham’s physical descendants (Genesis 17:8) and to give the Abrahamic
Covenant for an​

everlasting covenant to those same descendants (Genesis 17:7, 19), it​

cannot rightly be said that all the promises have been fulfilled.

Another thing to take notice is that when one reads Ezekiel 38...none of Israel's immediate bordering neighbors are mentioned in the Ezekiel 38 war,..the reason being is that all of Israel's inner ring arab neighbors were destroyed in the coming middle east war that today we see brewing in the middle east.
Also,..when the A.O.D. comes to pass,...Israel will have a clear shot to Petra and it's mountainous region because Israel will already be in complete possesion of the Jordanian area when that prophecy does come to pass.

Ezekiel 47:13-20

New International Version (NIV)


The Boundaries of the Land

13 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: “These are the boundaries of the land that you will divide among the twelve tribes of Israel as their inheritance, with two portions for Joseph. 14 You are to divide it equally among them. Because I swore with uplifted hand to give it to your ancestors, this land will become your inheritance.

15 “This is to be the boundary of the land:
“On the north side it will run from the Mediterranean Sea by the Hethlon road past Lebo Hamath to Zedad, 16 Berothah[a] and Sibraim (which lies on the border between Damascus and Hamath), as far as Hazer Hattikon, which is on the border of Hauran. 17 The boundary will extend from the sea to Hazar Enan,[b] along the northern border of Damascus, with the border of Hamath to the north. This will be the northern boundary.
18 “On the east side the boundary will run between Hauran and Damascus, along the Jordan between Gilead and the land of Israel, to the Dead Sea and as far as Tamar.[c] This will be the eastern boundary.
19 “On the south side it will run from Tamar as far as the waters of Meribah Kadesh, then along the Wadi of Egypt to the Mediterranean Sea. This will be the southern boundary. 20 “On the west side, the Mediterranean Sea will be the boundary to a point opposite Lebo Hamath. This will be the western boundary.

 

[warhorse]

Nice try:biglol . This is a direct quote;
43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.






Its always funny to me when the proud literalist trip on their shoelaces


Pretrib;

' that the prophecy has not been completed in it's entirety'


Joshua;

43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Originally Posted by pretrib
You can attempt to scripturally refute it ..or you can say that I am hi-jacking the thread.
Personally,..I am trying to reveal the truth.
And about the book of revelation in chronological order,...it most definately is.

And as for the topic.......in the days ahead...Israel will obtain all the land that God promised Abraham




Take your pick. heh heh

As much as i hate to do it i have to agree with hitch on this one, the prophcies were indeed fullfilled to that point. That being said Israel did not hold up its end of the bargan, so God promised to take it away and give it to another.

Levi 27v27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies'land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac,and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Math21v42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[jasoncran]

is he implying that isreal never went into exile or that God wouldnt exile them? i dont understand.

 

[tim-from-pa]

As much as i hate to do it i have to agree with hitch on this one, the prophcies were indeed fullfilled to that point. That being said Israel did not hold up its end of the bargan, so God promised to take it away and give it to another.

Levi 27v27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies'land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac,and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Math21v42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Warhorse:

What you quoted was called the "seven times" punishment. There was to be a long and short fulfillment of it which I will not go into detail here. However, this did not strip the promises to the children of Israel which is based on the faith of Abraham. Because of Abraham's faith and God's promise to Abraham (not because of his seed), that he would fulfill the promises to Abraham's seed. However, His seed would be WITHHELD the promises given disobedience, not stripped of them.

In other words if disobedience was a justification for termination of the promises, eg. the Davidic throne in Psalm 89, then Christ could not come either since Christ came AFTER the disobedient children of Abraham several hundred years earlier.

So, why did God keep the promises? Not because of the children, as Paul emphatically states that the promises do not come by Law (which is the standard of disobedience) but rather because of the faith of Abraham. in other words, whether the children were obedient or not, God would honor Abraham's faith because he was pleased with Abraham, not his kids. To say that the promises could be lost because of the disobedience of the kids is a slap in the face of Abraham and imply that the promises are then by works, something that Paul specifically said was not.

 

[jasoncran]

i understand that premise. i am wondering what pretrib is posting and what hitch is counterarguing.

there has to be a national isreal for this to come to pass

"ye shall not see me again till ye say blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord" and that is when jerusalem rejected him and he mourned over them.

 

[Stormcrow]

Goodbye :waving

Now I'm left wondering if there was ever a point to this thread.

 

[Hitch]

i understand that premise. i am wondering what pretrib is posting and what hitch is counterarguing.

there has to be a national isreal for this to come to pass

"ye shall not see me again till ye say blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord" and that is when jerusalem rejected him and he mourned over them.

Originally Posted by pretrib
You can attempt to scripturally refute it ..or you can say that I am hi-jacking the thread.
Personally,..I am trying to reveal the truth.
And about the book of revelation in chronological order,...it most definately is.

And as for the topic.......in the days ahead...Israel will obtain all the land that God promised Abraham


That was accomplished long ago

 

[jasoncran]

Originally Posted by pretrib
You can attempt to scripturally refute it ..or you can say that I am hi-jacking the thread.
Personally,..I am trying to reveal the truth.
And about the book of revelation in chronological order,...it most definately is.

And as for the topic.......in the days ahead...Israel will obtain all the land that God promised Abraham


That was accomplished long ago

what? they did posses the land given and were removed in judgment not once but twice! under solomon the kingdom did reach unto the euphrates.they land there were vassel unto solomon

pre-trib if you are going to claim that isreal has the land it had before thats one thing, its another to say that they never possesed the land as history shows that they did.

jerusalem was conqered by david not joshua.

 

[warhorse]

Warhorse:

What you quoted was called the "seven times" punishment. There was to be a long and short fulfillment of it which I will not go into detail here. However, this did not strip the promises to the children of Israel which is based on the faith of Abraham. Because of Abraham's faith and God's promise to Abraham (not because of his seed), that he would fulfill the promises to Abraham's seed. However, His seed would be WITHHELD the promises given disobedience, not stripped of them.

In other words if disobedience was a justification for termination of the promises, eg. the Davidic throne in Psalm 89, then Christ could not come either since Christ came AFTER the disobedient children of Abraham several hundred years earlier.

So, why did God keep the promises? Not because of the children, as Paul emphatically states that the promises do not come by Law (which is the standard of disobedience) but rather because of the faith of Abraham. in other words, whether the children were obedient or not, God would honor Abraham's faith because he was pleased with Abraham, not his kids. To say that the promises could be lost because of the disobedience of the kids is a slap in the face of Abraham and imply that the promises are then by works, something that Paul specifically said was not.

Let me clarify. i do not believe the promise was ever to national israel, but to faithfull israel. The land promise was indeed fullfilled by National israel at the point it was written. a snapshot if you will of the then current status, a faithful israel receaving the promise of God. Fast forward a few hundred years and we see the promise being taken away from national israel according to the promise of God because they were no longer faithful israel. This pattern is followed throughout israel's history.
i see faithful israel (the church) recieving this promise in the future according to the davidic promise. I see no future for national israel but wrath.

 

[Elijah674]

Let me clarify. i do not believe the promise was ever to national israel, but to faithfull israel. The land promise was indeed fullfilled by National israel at the point it was written. a snapshot if you will of the then current status, a faithful israel receaving the promise of God. Fast forward a few hundred years and we see the promise being taken away from national israel according to the promise of God because they were no longer faithful israel. This pattern is followed throughout israel's history.

i see faithful israel (the church) recieving this promise in the future according to the davidic promise. I see no future for national israel but wrath.

OK: I think that 'i' buy that so far!;)
Now the question begs asking, when is it that God documents that the land that He did promise would be given to these faithful ones?

This also finds most 'minds' in the 2 Peter 3:16-17 warning of 'falling from your own steadfastness'. + the ending of verse 16 is 'documented' there as well.

--Elijah