Redirectionalism

[reba]

The thread is reopened... We do our best here to not moderate content... to allow for a verity of view points . We all have agreed to abide by the TOS Here is the address...http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?pages/terms-of-service/

give them a read... Post to your beliefs and stop the snarks...

 

[Dan00]

Im not that old but I do remember the same. I was a jw then.

now then I never said nor implied all that you have said. attack my arguments not me. you have been reported. I never said that we should block our Christian heritage only that the government because of plain reading of the constution as it says(one need not be a lawyer to see this) is that it must allow all faiths to pray if they so desire. and also do the same as the Christians did in schools if that is the case. that is first time hearing that.

Im not that old but I do remember the same. I was a jw then.

now then I never said nor implied all that you have said. attack my arguments not me. you have been reported. I never said that we should block our Christian heritage only that the government because of plain reading of the constution as it says(one need not be a lawyer to see this) is that it must allow all faiths to pray if they so desire. and also do the same as the Christians did in schools if that is the case. that is first time hearing that.

Jason, the constitution was never intended the way you envision it, nor will the nation last the way you envision it. Nations must have a unique culture, or they will be at constant war with themselves. If you want to learn more about our Constitution, I recommend you read the Federalist Papers, and, in particular, George Washington's farewell address.

Dan

 

[Dan00]

No Dan, I do not quote from the NKJV.


Matt. 19:4-6 “The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, [5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? [6] Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” 7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? [8] He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. [9] And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. [10] His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. “

Don,

I am confused. Where are the errors?

Dan

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, the constitution was never intended the way you envision it, nor will the nation last the way you envision it. Nations must have a unique culture, or they will be at constant war with themselves. If you want to learn more about our Constitution, I recommend you read the Federalist Papers, and, in particular, George Washington's farewell address.

Dan

I have read them all. but we cant force man to serve jesus. you protest when the humanist force their views on you but then don't mind if you force ours on them.

the nation didn't even have a pledge until the 1890's and under god wasn't even until 1954. the nation wasn't meant to be a theocracy. which demonation should have reign in said schools. the majority of my county isn't pentacostal. I am. so I should force my kids to hear the anti tounge rants of the Baptists? I would love for men to do that but it must come from the heart not laws.

others change the first amendment to only Christians may be in America. people will come here and they will have differing views and not all will be Christians. the church could have stopped that but it didn't. the issue is that not all states had mandated bible studies, in fact on three states did it when it was banned all the others stopped. so to blame the scotus when that trend was already happening is wrong. they went with the prevailing view.

so Christ said to set up a theocracy? if what you said is true then why did the founders actually want the first amendment. it would be easier to have a unique culture of Christians only. sure they wanted it but they said only if the people wanted it. was it the goverments job to actually teach the bible. if so show me in the constitution? or was it the church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abington_School_District_v._Schempp

cases that lead up to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantwell_v._Connecticut

1940!

1947!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_v._Board_of_Education

now then if the constution was only for the states then ok each state could then ban guns and impose speech limits. careful what one asks for one just might get it. im sure you like guns. I do. the second amendment has been ruled to apply to all states. a federal theocracy is no better then a state one and vice versa!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCollum_v._Board_of_Education

1948 and well jews were having classes in schools they were voluntary. imagine that.

 

[jasoncran]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Released_time

now then this mentioned as was challenged and still done. most of it was done off the campus of public schools.

There are approximately 1,000 released time programs in operation today, ranging from kindergarten to high school, with 250,000 students enrolled. In some areas, including most public school districts in the state of Utah, released time programs allow students a daily class period which may be used for extracurricular religious studies.

A multi-denominational Christian organization that supports Released Time Bible Education across the country is School Ministries, Inc. (SMI). It was created in 1990 to act as an association that assists local communities in the creation of Released Time Bible Education and to provide support for existing programs. Although initially envisioned to have a South Carolina focus, SMI soon was undertaking a national role in responding to RTBE interests, addressing legal challenges, raising national visibility and addressing research needs. Since 2003, SMI has experienced an annual growth rate of 10% in students served. (See School Ministries, Inc. [5])

One notable large group taking released time for religious instruction are LDS students. Most LDS students in ninth through twelfth grade attend weekday religious classes called Seminary. In the Western United States, such as in Idaho and Utah, it is common to find an LDS seminary building within close walking distance of public high schools, sometimes directly adjacent. In such situations the LDS students will take one class period off from the public school as released time. The large numbers taking released time means the seminary has up to six or seven periods corresponding to the public school class periods.

New York City also participates in Released time. Many organizations take advantage, notably, the Jewish Education Program and the Jewish Released Time Program of Greater New York

Supporters of released time programs interpret the various court cases as permitting these programs, provided several guidelines are met. These conditions are
Classes must not be held on public school property,
Religious instruction may not be financed by public funds,
Students must have parental permission to be released from public school for the purpose of attending religious instruction.

we could do that in all 50 so why fight for something that obviously forces government to take sides? the word religion in context didn't meant just Christian denomations but all faiths. the founders knew about the muslims and jews and hindus. I have read their statements about the Barbary pirates.

oh wait I live near Melbourne and I know where Melbourne high is.

http://www.releasedtime.org/stateinfo/8-states/64-state17fb

im from florida. so I ask why do you think said ban of prayer actually worked when churches could simply do that?

1) why do you think that china has the largest Christian growth next to Africa?
2) if a nation who suppresses and kill Christians hasn't stopped the gospel then why has the gospel been nullified by the American church? simple. the American church is apostate. laws cant stop the word of god but man can if he refuses to serve him. not stop but rather slow it down and god wont move as much or not at all. ie jesus with capernahum and chloe.

 

[JLB]

Dan 00 said -

Jesus said they would be seen by that generation--and I believe Him! Do you not believe the plain words of Jesus?

Jesus said "this" generation, which is a clear and plain reference to the generation that sees "these things" will be the generation that sees the Coming of The Lord with power and great glory, as well as witnessing the angels go forth and gather His people at the Resurrection of the dead, as well as the rapture.

33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Matthew 24:33-34

The generation that sees these things, is the generation that will witness the Resurrection.

You only had to read a few more verses to see this Truth for yourself.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:31-34,41


All you have to do, Brother is read through to the end of the Olivet Discourse and you will discover that when Jesus appears to all the tribes of the earth, He will go and sit on His Throne and judge the nations and remove all the wicked from the earth.

Everyone will admire Him and be with Him and see Him.

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

We will receive a body that will shine like the sun, and will never die.

And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36

Amen!

This is the first Resurrection.


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB, I really feel saddened for you. You have let a charlatan, convicted felon, wife and child deserter, and fake doctor---named Cyrus Scofield!--- or one of his disciples, like John Hagee, deceive you!

Not just deceive you, but deceive you to the point of believing their interpretation of the scripture to the plain words of both Jesus and John!

This is my last post to you. You are hopelessly lost in their arbitrary literalism/symbolism of dispensationalism, and I don't know how to get through to you.

God bless you.

Dan

I really don't know those people, I just read what the Bible says.

I just believe what Jesus said.

If you still have flesh on your bones, Then Jesus has not returned and the resurrection has not taken place.

Amen


Bless you.


JLB

 

[JLB]

So, John was a liar? I don't think so.

I hope you realize what you are writing, for your sake.

edit

God Bless you brother.

JLB

 

[Dan00]

Jesus said"this"generation, which is a clear and plain reference to the generation that sees"these things"will be the generation that sees the Coming of The Lordwith power and great glory,as well as witnessing the angels go forth and gather His people at the Resurrection of the dead, as well as the rapture.

33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you,this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Matthew 24:33-34

The generation that sees these things, is the generation that will witness the Resurrection.

Let's see if I understand:

Verse 33:

“when you see these things” means “when they see these things”

and,

“know that it is near” means “they will know that it is near”


Verse 34:

“this generation” means “that generation”


I think I get it. When Jesus says “this” he means “that”, and when he says “you” he means “they.”


So when Jesus says,

"But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation."

He really means,

"But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of that generation."

And when he says,

“But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come” (Matthew 10:23)

He really means,

“But when they persecute them in this city, [they should] flee into another: for verily I say unto you, They shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come” (Matthew 10:23)

It is confusing, but I think I understand.


Just to be sure, how should I interpret these?

“But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God” (Luke 9:27)

“And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power” (Mark 9:1)


“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)

Should I used "there" in place of "here?"

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Dan00]

You only had to read a few more verses to see this Truth for yourself.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:31-34,41

I think I understand. Only "then" will he sit on the throne of his glory. He does "not" sit on his throne for several thousand years after his resurrection.

Where has he been staying in the mean time? What has he been doing all this time?


Also, what does this mean?

“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:2)

Does "is" mean "will" to Paul, like "this" means "that" to Jesus?

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Dan00]

We will receive a body that will shine like the sun, and will never die.

Where can I find that in the scripture?

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Dan00]

If you still have flesh on your bones, Then Jesus has not returned and the resurrection has not taken place.

This is very confusing. I posted this a short while ago:

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)

What does that verse mean?

Thanks,
Dan

 

[JLB]

This is very confusing. I posted this a short while ago:

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)

What does that verse mean?

Thanks,
Dan

It means what it says.

John for example, saw the Lord Coming in the clouds with power and great glory, with all the armies of heaven, and he wrote about it for us in the book of revelation.

John was caught up in the spirit and was allowed to see the future at the end of the age, and describe them for all to read.

Amen.

Stephen was allowed to see the son of Man standing at the right hand of God before He died.

21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me." 23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?" John 21:21-23


Things tend to be misunderstood when there are perceived through the narrow view of the natural man.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Where can I find that in the scripture?

Thanks,

Dan

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:41-43

and again -

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. Daniel 12:2-3


We will have bodies like Jesus, for we shall be like Him

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

• 1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.Matthew 17:1-2

JLB

 

[Dan00]

Stephen was allowed to see the son of Man standing at the right hand of God before He died.

JLB,

I inquired about this verse:

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)

Are you saying Stephen saw the son of Man coming in his Kingdom?

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Dan00]

It means what it says.

John for example, saw the Lord Coming in the clouds with power and great glory, with all the armies of heaven, and he wrote about it for us in the book of revelation.

John was caught up in the spirit and was allowed to see the future at the end of the age, and describe them for all to read.

I understand. Jesus was not talking about coming in their lifetime; only that one or more would see a vision of him coming in the future. That makes sense.

Now help me understand this. Matthew 10 begins with this verse:

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease." (Matthew 10:23)

Then Jesus sent them (with their newly received powers) to the lost sheep of the house of Israel:

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” (Matthew 10:5-8)

Then he gives them various warnings about what will occur during their journeys. And he says this:

“But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.” (Matthew 10:23)

Jesus continues with his instructions to his disciples until the end of the chapter. The next chapter begins with this verse:

"And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities." (Matthew 11:1)

Help me reconcile Matthew 10:23. How can it be a prophecy of the distant future?

Thanks,

Dan

 

[reba]

Thanks guys

 

[Dan00]

Is this you, Reba?

 

[Dan00]

Things tend to be misunderstood when there are perceived through the narrow view of the natural man.

That term, "natural man," in routinely found in the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible.

 

[reba]

Is this you, Reba?

Splane