I thought God sent the snakes.No Satan is not the God of this evil world.Lets not give Satan so much credit.Satan is the prince of this Earth.God is the King.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Who do you think has control of our weather?
- Thread starter Kathi
- Start date
Deborah13
Member
I believe ... God said that He took down the hedge.
The root of Job's problem was self-righteousness. He thought that all the good things he did could save him and his children.
The hedge was God's grace over him protecting him.
Job repents of not understanding that only God in His mercy and grace could save him, not his own Right Hand (righteous works).
We had discussed this sometime ago and another member pointed out that Job didn't have personal relationship with God.
So imo you are correct in saying he did not trust God but I think he was innocent in that he didn't know (understand) until this event.
Deborah13
Member
Num_21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Deu 8:15 Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;
Deu 8:16 Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;
So this is just my opinion, they were there in the desert in their natural habitat. But God had been protecting them, He took that protection away allowing them to be bitten. That is my interpretation when I look at the two scriptures together.
TheCurseoftheRodain
Member
I think you replied to the wrong post because what you said doesn't match up with my quote above...perhaps you meant to quote someone else?
However, I do not say now, nor have I ever said, that God allowed Satan to do anything to Job; He didn't. When Satan complained about that Blessing wall/hedge (which we as Believers have now, if we'll expect and speak it) God had to answer truthfully - He can't lie. It was Job that let Satan through, not God, and He first did it with his fears and then he compounded it by talking the curse the whole time and confessing what he was afflicted with rather than what God said he is promised (say what you have/are afflicted with/are experiencing/ are feeling, etc, keep getting more of the same - speak the promises of the covenants of promise from God's Word, get those).
TheCurseoftheRodain
Member
Kathi, if God were the King of the whole Earth, then why is Satan able to do anything? If He were King of the Earth, certainly no evil would be allowed at any time. But rather, it is as I have pointed out in Psalm 115, that the Earth, God has given to MEN. He gave it first to Adam in Genesis 1:28, then Satan got that authority and dominion, and then Jesus got it back and gave it to us as Believers.
The Bible DOES say Satan is the god (notice the lower case - the same word used to describe us by Jesus and other places in the OC) of this world.
Here it is in 2 Cor 4:4 in KJV
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Here it is in the NLT
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
With that settled, Jesus is OUR King, and He is THE King of Kings (we are the Kings - just as God said to Moses before the people chose the Law instead of to remain under the Abraham covenant of grace)).
We are under HIS authority, having been translated OUT of the Kingdom of Darkness and into the Kingdom of God's Dear Son Jesus (Colossians 1:12-13). So we don't have to live under Satan's authority or the curse anymore - those who are unsaved do.
TheCurseoftheRodain
Member
I agree that Job didn't know what he was doing - otherwise, why would he have done it?
But, just like if you don't understand that leaping off a 100-story building will kill you, you'll still die. God cannot make exceptions to His laws just because He loves us and delights in our prosperity - we have to walk in His Kingdom and do things His way to get the results He promises.
jasoncran
Member
the devil doesn't make us sin. god doesn't say ok the devil made you sin.
I will pick at that. why do people die then if they can have that level of healing? name on person who died from no disease and the doctors said he was in perfect health and old age and could move like a teen. good luck. we all will die from something. our bodies are cursed not the soul in it who awaits redemption. don't assume that I don't believe that the devil isn't there or a part of the problem. but we let him trick us and we also are more of a problem then we want to admit.
jasoncran
Member
if god isn't a king tell me what this meant?
god raises up kings and lowers them. did pharaoh get appointed to be pharaoh by satan? or god? god said for this I raised thee up.
heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool. all souls are mine. the earth and the fullness thereof are mine. all things said ere the cross.
god raises up kings and lowers them. did pharaoh get appointed to be pharaoh by satan? or god? god said for this I raised thee up.
heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool. all souls are mine. the earth and the fullness thereof are mine. all things said ere the cross.
Deborah13
Member
I completely agree and I think He blesses some of us more than we deserve. He has me anyway.
TheCurseoftheRodain
Member
You're right, we don't deserve ANY of it ;)
Did you realize that we get blessed on Jesus' account exclusively?
Righteousness is a free gift, that we do not have to work to maintain, for if we could work to justify it, why was it given as a gift in the first place despite our sins? Sin couldn't stop it in the first place and sin will never stop it. We have His righteousness now and always.
In the Old Covenant, the one who sinned, we'll say it's me for sake of argument, would come before the High Priest with my sacrifice, and then he would inspect my sacrifice for perfection. Notice that neither God nor the High Priest are inspecting me. At the right moment, he gives me the signal to lay hands on the animal and impute my sin to it, though it did not deserve it and I would receive its right standing with God, though I did not deserve it. Then I would kill it, he would offer it to God and I would go away back under the blessing and forgiven of all, at peace with God.
IN ALL of that, God never looked at me, only my sacrifice. That is why Jesus is the LAST sacrifice, that if you trust Him to be your sacrifice every time all the time forever, then you are already forgiven, and blessed and righteous, and God never looks at you to determine if you are deserving of anything - He looks at your sacrifice, Jesus. What does HE deserve? Then that is what YOU deserve. You get on HIS account.
Did you realize that we get blessed on Jesus' account exclusively?
Righteousness is a free gift, that we do not have to work to maintain, for if we could work to justify it, why was it given as a gift in the first place despite our sins? Sin couldn't stop it in the first place and sin will never stop it. We have His righteousness now and always.
In the Old Covenant, the one who sinned, we'll say it's me for sake of argument, would come before the High Priest with my sacrifice, and then he would inspect my sacrifice for perfection. Notice that neither God nor the High Priest are inspecting me. At the right moment, he gives me the signal to lay hands on the animal and impute my sin to it, though it did not deserve it and I would receive its right standing with God, though I did not deserve it. Then I would kill it, he would offer it to God and I would go away back under the blessing and forgiven of all, at peace with God.
IN ALL of that, God never looked at me, only my sacrifice. That is why Jesus is the LAST sacrifice, that if you trust Him to be your sacrifice every time all the time forever, then you are already forgiven, and blessed and righteous, and God never looks at you to determine if you are deserving of anything - He looks at your sacrifice, Jesus. What does HE deserve? Then that is what YOU deserve. You get on HIS account.
TheCurseoftheRodain
Member
Please re-read my posts, I think you miss a lot of what I say because I am seeming to have to refute a lot of things from you that I never said.
That said, I never said anywhere God is not a King - He is THE King. I said He is not King of THIS world (the Earth), and my previous post shows why.
Sailingflutist-SF
Member
TCR, God DID allow satan to torment Job. It is clearly evident. I am sorry that you have to make it sound so complicated and confused. In time, I believe you will come to see this as you open to the simple Truth.
jasoncran
Member
who placed nebuchadbezzar in power? see the book of Daniel for that. god did, he lets and controls satan. satan couldn't attack job unless god allowed it. job didn't sin to get that to happen. therefore god didn't loose the earth, he allows satan to do what he wants . he reigns and that is how he reigns. his choice to reign and allow evil. the earth belongs to god and it never transferred to satan. god let that happen. by allowing freewill. man chooses evil and God. God honors that. when he does decide to stop that. man will be judged.
TheCurseoftheRodain
Member
Actually He didn't. Job let the wall of Blessing down himself through his fear, and when Satan says his stuff that is when God has to speak the truth, He cannot lie. Additionally, notice that later in Job 42 (verse 3?) Job says that all the stuff he blamed on God he says he had no clue and was speaking of things he did not comprehend. Just as someone can shoot someone else dead with a gun if they've never seen one before, or used one, or understood how it worked, etc, the result is still the same. Just because Job did not understand how he (and his wife for cursing God) let Satan into his life or how to get rid of him doesn't change the result; God didn't shoot that person, or "allow" them to be shot, just as God did not "allow" Satan to torment Job. I truly do not comprehend why anyone, particularly a Believer, goes to such great lengths to get themselves and others to believe that God is a bad dude who delights in messing his children up and painting Him as a lover of torment......particularly when JOHN 3:16-17 - why would God do that to Himself over mankind when you say that God delights in getting Satan to torment His people...?
It is the same for Paul with the messenger of Satan who was a thorn in the flesh (the same as we would say someone or something is a pain in the neck). When God said My grace (unmerited favor) is sufficient for thee, He was not abandoning Paul as religious tradition has taught, He is saying literally that what He's done through the cross, the grace, the favor He has provided is sufficient: USE IT.
You'll never one time find anywhere that the NT Believer is instructed to pray to the Father to get Satan out of their life - it's because God has already put him under your feet and given you all power and authority over him, so it's up to you to make an end of him using the name of Jesus, the anointing, the Word of God (the Sword of the Spirit), your faith (which is His faith)...
TheCurseoftheRodain
Member
Through the prayers of His people is how God gets His hands on things down here. You don't know the prayers of faith that have been prayed by righteous men and women and children in milleniums past...
You must be intellectually honest: if God IS in charge of everything down here as you posit, then God is evil, because you are saying that He has given license to the Devil to rape, murder, steal, create storms that devastate, etc. You are giving God credit for EVERY single evil deed ever done. Whereas Jesus taught us that everything GOOD comes from God and everything BAD comes from the Devil. It's either or, white or black, etc.
How can God, who is just, allow evil in His Kingdom? His Kingdom is pure: what happened when Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit? They dropped dead. How do you think then that God would "allow" all these evil deeds when He would not even allow ONE LIE?
What happened when Adam and Eve sinned? It wasn't "all cool"...it destroyed the Earth and mankind in one fell swoop...
You basically calling what is good bad and what is bad good.
TheCurseoftheRodain
Member
Additionally, IF everything here on the Earth was under God's control as you say, then WHY DID JESUS HAVE TO PRAY? He prayed YOUR will be done on the Earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.....if God's will happened down here automatically as you have incorrectly presumed, then why did Jesus have to pray that?.....that's like spiritual dynamite.
Was it unfair for God to allow Job to suffer over what was basically an argument between God and Satan?"
Answer: A surface reading of the book of Job usually evokes a reaction such as “Why is God making a ‘bet’ with the devil? God is being unfair to Job!” If we are honest and not just trying to defend God, He seems at first like some kind of cosmic ogre. God not only wagered Satan over the outcome of Job’s trials, but He actually provoked the bet (Job 1–2). To make matters worse, Job never finds out why he was afflicted in the first place. This is very disturbing for those who hope to see God as just, gracious and loving and not just “playing” with us as if we were pawns on a chessboard. So, in a way, the story of Job puts God on trial. To really understand what is going on in Job, we need to evaluate how this “trial” is litigated in the book’s argument.
On the surface, when God finally “testifies” in Job 38–42, the way He “grills” Job may seem to suggest that God is “against” Job rather than “for” him. The God-speeches are notable for their deep sarcasm, as if God were simply highlighting Job’s cluelessness (Job 38–39). However, a deeper look reveals a more redemptive dynamic in this trial: first, Job’s friend Elihu actually serves under the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, both as Job’s advocate before God and God’s advocate before Job (Job 32–37); second, we find that God indeed did express His love to Job, both in His speeches (Job 38–41) and in finally vindicating Job. God confirms that Job had spoken “what was right” about Him, whereas his first three friends had not (42:7).
As Job and his friends debate God’s fairness, it becomes apparent that all of them basically believe in the doctrine of “retribution theology”—every act receives just punishment or reward in this present life, so we should be able to tell who is righteous or wicked by whether they are visibly blessed or cursed on earth. This is a false doctrine, but Job thought it should be true and went on the offensive, charging God with injustice and calling for a trial (Job 29–31). Surprisingly, God condescends and agrees to be put on trial. The speeches in Job 38–41 actually consist of God’s testimony in His own defense. In the “trial” we see that Job has no legal standing to convict God. Job cannot demonstrate how God runs the universe, so he cannot present any evidence of injustice (chapters 38–39). Also, God establishes His absolute right to act as He sees fit. As proof, He points to two creatures—behemoth and leviathan—that mankind has no control over whatsoever and that answer only to God.
Even before God shows up, Elihu makes the same points and argues that God is deeply redemptive in His dealings with man in spite of man’s notorious tendency toward self-destruction (32–37). Since God validates Elihu’s points (38–41), the adversarial tone in God’s answer to Job makes even more sense: throughout Job’s dialogue with his friends (4–27) and in his formal complaint to God (29–31), Job had assumed that God was unaware of what happened to him or that He was deliberately persecuting him or that Job had inadvertently sinned and God was not willing to tell him what the problem was. Job thought he was being punished entirely out of proportion to any conceivable offense he may have committed. In fact, Job questions God incessantly throughout the dialogue. His protest climaxes in a direct indictment of God on the charge of injustice (29–31).
So what did Job “get right” (42:7)? The upshot of the trial is that Job finally sees that God’s governance of the universe is much more wonderful than he could have imagined, and he openly concedes this (42:2-5); so this is what Job spoke about God that was “right” (42:7). Now, it is absolutely crucial to note the sequence of events at this point: it is only when Job obeys God and intercedes on behalf of his three friends—who had now become his enemies—that God actually blesses Job with a twofold inheritance (42:8-17). This “reward” was not at all some kind of “consolation prize” for Job’s unfair treatment; rather, it was the inheritance God promises to all who serve faithfully as redemptive agents of the Creator (cf. Daniel 12:3). Job obeyed God and was rewarded for his obedience.
In the end, God’s wager with Satan actually achieved an incredible coup: He harnessed evil and turned it to good (cf. Genesis 50:20), and He transformed Job into the most effective servant of all, one who took on God’s own redemptive character and loved his enemies. And this, in fact, is our take-home lesson from Job.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-Job-Satan.html#ixzz2tXz8dthp
Answer: A surface reading of the book of Job usually evokes a reaction such as “Why is God making a ‘bet’ with the devil? God is being unfair to Job!” If we are honest and not just trying to defend God, He seems at first like some kind of cosmic ogre. God not only wagered Satan over the outcome of Job’s trials, but He actually provoked the bet (Job 1–2). To make matters worse, Job never finds out why he was afflicted in the first place. This is very disturbing for those who hope to see God as just, gracious and loving and not just “playing” with us as if we were pawns on a chessboard. So, in a way, the story of Job puts God on trial. To really understand what is going on in Job, we need to evaluate how this “trial” is litigated in the book’s argument.
On the surface, when God finally “testifies” in Job 38–42, the way He “grills” Job may seem to suggest that God is “against” Job rather than “for” him. The God-speeches are notable for their deep sarcasm, as if God were simply highlighting Job’s cluelessness (Job 38–39). However, a deeper look reveals a more redemptive dynamic in this trial: first, Job’s friend Elihu actually serves under the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, both as Job’s advocate before God and God’s advocate before Job (Job 32–37); second, we find that God indeed did express His love to Job, both in His speeches (Job 38–41) and in finally vindicating Job. God confirms that Job had spoken “what was right” about Him, whereas his first three friends had not (42:7).
As Job and his friends debate God’s fairness, it becomes apparent that all of them basically believe in the doctrine of “retribution theology”—every act receives just punishment or reward in this present life, so we should be able to tell who is righteous or wicked by whether they are visibly blessed or cursed on earth. This is a false doctrine, but Job thought it should be true and went on the offensive, charging God with injustice and calling for a trial (Job 29–31). Surprisingly, God condescends and agrees to be put on trial. The speeches in Job 38–41 actually consist of God’s testimony in His own defense. In the “trial” we see that Job has no legal standing to convict God. Job cannot demonstrate how God runs the universe, so he cannot present any evidence of injustice (chapters 38–39). Also, God establishes His absolute right to act as He sees fit. As proof, He points to two creatures—behemoth and leviathan—that mankind has no control over whatsoever and that answer only to God.
Even before God shows up, Elihu makes the same points and argues that God is deeply redemptive in His dealings with man in spite of man’s notorious tendency toward self-destruction (32–37). Since God validates Elihu’s points (38–41), the adversarial tone in God’s answer to Job makes even more sense: throughout Job’s dialogue with his friends (4–27) and in his formal complaint to God (29–31), Job had assumed that God was unaware of what happened to him or that He was deliberately persecuting him or that Job had inadvertently sinned and God was not willing to tell him what the problem was. Job thought he was being punished entirely out of proportion to any conceivable offense he may have committed. In fact, Job questions God incessantly throughout the dialogue. His protest climaxes in a direct indictment of God on the charge of injustice (29–31).
So what did Job “get right” (42:7)? The upshot of the trial is that Job finally sees that God’s governance of the universe is much more wonderful than he could have imagined, and he openly concedes this (42:2-5); so this is what Job spoke about God that was “right” (42:7). Now, it is absolutely crucial to note the sequence of events at this point: it is only when Job obeys God and intercedes on behalf of his three friends—who had now become his enemies—that God actually blesses Job with a twofold inheritance (42:8-17). This “reward” was not at all some kind of “consolation prize” for Job’s unfair treatment; rather, it was the inheritance God promises to all who serve faithfully as redemptive agents of the Creator (cf. Daniel 12:3). Job obeyed God and was rewarded for his obedience.
In the end, God’s wager with Satan actually achieved an incredible coup: He harnessed evil and turned it to good (cf. Genesis 50:20), and He transformed Job into the most effective servant of all, one who took on God’s own redemptive character and loved his enemies. And this, in fact, is our take-home lesson from Job.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-Job-Satan.html#ixzz2tXz8dthp
Deborah13
Member
I agree with this. Jesus is our righteous standing with God as the perfect sacrifice without spot or blemish.
Deborah13
Member
I wish we could discuss this here but it is not a debate thread, so I can't.
I agree with some of your theology, but you need to remember that God made changes in the NT. We don't see fire raining down from heaven consuming things and people either like in the OT. I believe that in the OT satan had access to God to accuse us and that he no longer has that access. Big difference. God made the rules and God had to live by the rules He made. But now satan is kick out from God presence and we have a mediator, Jesus Christ himself.
Like another thread I do believe that Satan still has periodic rights to God's throne.