Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[JLB]

JLB this is kinda why i get bugged when people insert their words into scripture... like "saying antichrist" is in The Revelation. or "The Great Tribulation".
Scripture has enough complexities with out us adding to it...

Ok. Which words did I add

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I just add that if a person did what you say is rejection of the Savior, they will never, ever, ever be able to be saved again. per Hebrews,

Heb 6:4 for it is impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age,
Heb 6:6 and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.

This is true. And I've been purposely avoiding this point. I'm afraid of discouraging someone who has been weak in faith and has moved away from their secure place in Christ. I don't think Christ is quick in closing the door of salvation to those who have turned away from the faith. I figure he knows when it's time to lock them out of the kingdom promise they once had.

Where is that point, before or after salvation, that God turns a person over to their decision to walk away from the truth and makes it so they can't come back? I don't know. But I suppose it good that we let people know it will happen somewhere along the line. And after it does I suspect they can't even care that it has happened....until the Judgment Day when they will beg to be let into the kingdom. Sobering thoughts on this Monday morning.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ok. Which words did I add

Maybe she was supporting your post and was referring to OSAS(?)

 

[Deborah13]

This is true. And I've been purposely avoiding this point. I'm afraid of discouraging someone who has been weak in faith and has moved away from their secure place in Christ. I don't think Christ is quick in closing the door of salvation to those who have turned away from the faith. I figure he knows when it's time to lock them out of the kingdom promise they once had.

Where is that point, before or after salvation, that God turns a person over to their decision to walk away from the truth and makes it so they can't come back? I don't know. But I suppose it good that we let people know it will happen somewhere along the line. And after it does I suspect they can't even care that it has happened....until the Judgment Day when they will beg to be let into the kingdom. Sobering thoughts on this Monday morning.

So are you saying that, that person Can know if they've been locked out? And if so, how?
If not, why not?

 

[jeff77]

This is true. And I've been purposely avoiding this point. I'm afraid of discouraging someone who has been weak in faith and has moved away from their secure place in Christ. I don't think Christ is quick in closing the door of salvation to those who have turned away from the faith. I figure he knows when it's time to lock them out of the kingdom promise they once had.

Where is that point, before or after salvation, that God turns a person over to their decision to walk away from the truth and makes it so they can't come back? I don't know. But I suppose it good that we let people know it will happen somewhere along the line. And after it does I suspect they can't even care that it has happened....until the Judgment Day when they will beg to be let into the kingdom. Sobering thoughts on this Monday morning.

This is interesting because I started a thread about God turning people over to their sinful ways after they repeatedly reject the call of Holy Spirit. I started it about 4 months ago I think but only a few people replied and from what I remember they didn't seem to agree that God would do something like this. I will see if I can find it in case anyone is interested.

 

[veryberry]

Jethro Bodine you said,
"Paul is telling them it is effectual and applicable to them as long as they they stay steadfast in faith in that hope, that gospel. Stop doing that and you no longer have the hope and promise the gospel gives (a 'hope' and a 'promise' because it is about things to come). Faith is how you access the hope held out in the gospel. No faith, or no continuing faith--no way to access the hope and promise of the gospel."

I just add that if a person did what you say is rejection of the Savior, they will never, ever, ever be able to be saved again. per Hebrews,

Heb 6:4 for it is impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age,
Heb 6:6 and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.

I'll stand corrected, according to these verses one truly can leave the faith.

 

[Deborah13]

I'll stand corrected, according to these verses one truly can leave the faith.

I think we need to be very, very careful with the scripture I posted.
The author, maybe Paul, was talking strictly to a Jewish congregation through the whole book.
I believe that this scripture is pointing to something very particular because it says they cannot be renewed because that would be to crucify Christ again.
I believe that what is being spoken of here is turning back to a previous belief they had in the blood of bulls and goats for atonement.
I am not implying that this could only be done by a Jew. But it says to me that they have totally rejected their belief in the Salvation that only comes through Christ. It says to me, that if they can't be renewed that means the Holy Spirit has been quench. I believe if the Holy Spirit is not drawing someone they can't be saved or be reconciled to God.
If I'm correct about that, then this person would never Want to be restored.

We can only imagine how powerful the urge would be to turn back to the way you had been taught all your life was the only way to receive atonement for sin. Family and friends still in the doings of blood of animals for atonement, persecution by the Jews who were their brothern. It had to be extremely hard. Jesus cried, Paul said he would give up his salvation for them if he could.

So I won't say that others besides Jews could not reject their Savior for some other belief in a way to salvation or even no longer believe in an after life at all.
But if they can do that, they will never Want to return.

 

[veryberry]

This is true. And I've been purposely avoiding this point. I'm afraid of discouraging someone who has been weak in faith and has moved away from their secure place in Christ. I don't think Christ is quick in closing the door of salvation to those who have turned away from the faith. I figure he knows when it's time to lock them out of the kingdom promise they once had.

This is very irritating....You sit here and complain about truth not being told, yet you say that you purposely avoid it. Why? because of people weak in the faith? Give me a break man. Shame on you! If people can't handle the word, then they can't handle the word. If God doesn't want something to be told, he wouldn't put it in his word. Romans 4:8 - Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. <----Is in his word...Don't ever tell me what to teach or not to teach again.

Where is that point, before or after salvation, that God turns a person over to their decision to walk away from the truth and makes it so they can't come back? I don't know. But I suppose it good that we let people know it will happen somewhere along the line. And after it does I suspect they can't even care that it has happened....until the Judgment Day when they will beg to be let into the kingdom. Sobering thoughts on this Monday morning.

I suppose that's between God and the believer. This is why you can't tell by how they live their life. All you can do is teach the word of God. The Whole word of God. With out avoiding it.

 

[Deborah13]

This is very irritating....You sit here and complain about truth not being told, yet you say that you purposely avoid it. Why? because of people weak in the faith? Give me a break man. Shame on you! If people can't handle the word, then they can't handle the word. If God doesn't want something to be told, he wouldn't put it in his word. Romans 4:8 - Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. <----Is in his word...Don't ever tell me what to teach or not to teach again.


I suppose that's between God and the believer. This is why you can't tell by how they live their life. All you can do is teach the word of God. The Whole word of God. With out avoiding it. Unless all that crap up above is just you being prideful, saying that you knew it when you didn't. Which if this is the case. Come on man, we all suffer with being prideful, but there is not a person in the world that knows all truths for God's word.

I don't believe God ever cast out a person who has been truly saved and I don't think that is what this scripture teaches. This is something the believer decides themselves.

Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So are you saying that, that person Can know if they've been locked out?
And if so, how?
If not, why not?

Probably not.

Just as a person wasn't aware of, or cared about their lostness before the conviction of the Spirit came along before they were saved, so I don't see them being able to be aware of, or care about their lostness after they reject the truth and are turned over to that decision after they once believed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is very irritating....You sit here and complain about truth not being told, yet you say that you purposely avoid it. Why? because of people weak in the faith? Give me a break man. Shame on you! If people can't handle the word, then they can't handle the word. If God doesn't want something to be told, he wouldn't put it in his word. Romans 4:8 - Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. <----Is in his word...Don't ever tell me what to teach or not to teach again.

Shame on you for not asking me the reason before you went on your judgmental rant, lol. You judge without knowledge.

I have a reason that I can not share here in an open forum. There is a time and a place for any truth. The time and place for this particular truth FOR ME to talk about is not now or here. Don't want to say why. You'll just have to trust my reason is good.

Save your rant for when my purposeful decision to not hammer that part of God's truth starts manifesting itself in me trying to stop you from sharing that truth. But don't hold your breath. 'Taint gonna happen. So have at it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe that what is being spoken of here is turning back to a previous belief they had in the blood of bulls and goats for atonement.
I am not implying that this could only be done by a Jew. But it says to me that they have totally rejected their belief in the Salvation that only comes through Christ.

I'm glad you see this important point, too.

I've always been amazed at Christians who are hard core OSAS and say you can't lose your salvation, but who then turn right around and say in a law discussion that to go back to the law for justification is a damnable offense (which it most certainly is). You see the glaring contradiction I'm sure.

 

[gr8grace3]

I think we need to be very, very careful with the scripture I posted.
The author, maybe Paul, was talking strictly to a Jewish congregation through the whole book.
I believe that this scripture is pointing to something very particular because it says they cannot be renewed because that would be to crucify Christ again.
I believe that what is being spoken of here is turning back to a previous belief they had in the blood of bulls and goats for atonement.
I am not implying that this could only be done by a Jew. But it says to me that they have totally rejected their belief in the Salvation that only comes through Christ. It says to me, that if they can't be renewed that means the Holy Spirit has been quench. I believe if the Holy Spirit is not drawing someone they can't be saved or be reconciled to God.
If I'm correct about that, then this person would never Want to be restored.

We can only imagine how powerful the urge would be to turn back to the way you had been taught all your life was the only way to receive atonement for sin. Family and friends still in the doings of blood of animals for atonement, persecution by the Jews who were their brothern. It had to be extremely hard. Jesus cried, Paul said he would give up his salvation for them if he could.

So I won't say that others besides Jews could not reject their Savior for some other belief in a way to salvation or even no longer believe in an after life at all.
But if they can do that, they will never Want to return.

I think in these verses Deb, that the very ones that have fallen away(Not eternally damned to the lake of fire) do want to be restored again. Hence the action of returning to animal sacrifice for their atonement. They want to be restored again because they somehow lost the fact that Christ already did it for them......forever.

These Jewish believers were not out preaching Christ was not a vital part of being forgiven, they were adding back in the dead works of animal sacrifice.....Christ+animal sacrifice.

We have it today. Christ + baptism,Good(human)works. They do not denounce Christ outright but they have fallen away from the true faith of Grace and the simple Gospel.

 

[Deborah13]

Probably not.

Just as a person wasn't aware of, or cared about their lostness before the conviction of the Spirit came along before they were saved, so I don't see them being able to be aware of, or care about their lostness after they reject the truth and are turned over to that decision after they once believed.

I don't understand how could they not know that they have rejected Jesus as their Savior?
We are not talking about sin in the life here, we are talking about a conscious choice.
In Hebrews it says the fall away and can't come back. The Holy Spirit is not there any longer.
Someone who used to believe, filled with the HS, and is never aware that the HS is not there?
They are not aware that they don't believe??
They hear the name of Jesus or someone using their Lords name in vain, and it doesn't bother them?
Really Jethro? They made a conscious decision. If it's a conscious decision to receive the Gospel certainly it's a conscious decision to reject it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't understand how could they not know that they have rejected Jesus as their Savior?

They don't care that they did that.
True to the unbelievers creed, they all believe they are okay with God, whoever and whatever he is. I've never known a Christ rejector who did not have some imaginary construct in place of the truth they reject to deceive themselves and salve their conscience regarding their status with God. They consciously reject the truth, but replace it with a lie that makes them think they're still okay with God.

We are not talking about sin in the life here, we are talking about a conscious choice.
In Hebrews it says the fall away and can't come back. The Holy Spirit is not there any longer.
Someone who used to believe, filled with the HS, and is never aware that the HS is not there?

The Bible says God turns them over to the lie of their choice.

They are not aware that they don't believe??

They still think they're okay with God....just according to their own 'gospel'.

They hear the name of Jesus or someone using their Lords name in vain, and it doesn't bother them?Really Jethro?

Why should it? They've rejected love for God.

They made a conscious decision. If it's a conscious decision to receive the Gospel certainly it's a conscious decision to reject it.

Yes, they consciously decided to abandon the gospel somewhere along the line in some way.

 

[Deborah13]

I think in these verses Deb, that the very ones that have fallen away(Not eternally damned to the lake of fire) do want to be restored again. Hence the action of returning to animal sacrifice for their atonement. They want to be restored again because they somehow lost the fact that Christ already did it for them......forever.

These Jewish believers were not out preaching Christ was not a vital part of being forgiven, they were adding back in the dead works of animal sacrifice.....Christ+animal sacrifice.

We have it today. Christ + baptism,Good(human)works. They do not denounce Christ outright but they have fallen away from the true faith of Grace and the simple Gospel.

I agree with you that they want to be saved but they reject the salvation only found in Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

They don't care that they did that.
True to the unbelievers creed, they all believe they are okay with God, whoever and whatever he is. I've never known a Christ rejector who did not have some imaginary construct in place of the truth they reject to deceive themselves and salve their conscience regarding their status with God. They consciously reject the truth, but replace it with a lie that makes them think they're still okay with God.

The Bible says God turns them over to the lie of their choice.

They still think they're okay with God....just according to their own 'gospel'.

Why should it? They've rejected love for God.

Yes, they consciously decided to abandon the gospel somewhere along the line in some way.

There is no abandoning the gospel in some way. You either believe Jesus is the Savior that He is the only way you can be saved, or you don't. There is no in between.

Be honest Jethro, give an example of how one can no longer believe their Savior is their Savior without knowing it. Give one example of how a person can reject Christ and not know it.

 

[gr8grace3]

I agree with you that they want to be saved but they reject the salvation only found in Christ.

So do people that believe baptism saves them. They are rejecting the salvation that is only found in Jesus Christ.

If this person really believed and then was convinced by some slick Christian that it was really their baptism that saved them does God Toss that born again Christian to the Lake of fire because he was convinced that it was his baptism? Still moral, still professes Christ,Still does missions in the name of Christ,still looks good from our perspective but is wholly deceived that it was his baptism that saved him......Is God going to toss this believer in the lake of fire?

 

[Deborah13]

So do people that believe baptism saves them. They are rejecting the salvation that is only found in Jesus Christ.

If this person really believed and then was convinced by some slick Christian that it was really their baptism that saved them does God Toss that born again Christian to the Lake of fire because he was convinced that it was his baptism? Still moral, still professes Christ,Still does missions in the name of Christ,still looks good from our perspective but is wholly deceived that it was his baptism that saved him......Is God going to toss this believer in the lake of fire?

The Bible instructs them to be baptized in Jesus name. I don't know that they believe that it is baptism that actually saves them but that if they don't they are sinning against God and not in obedience to that salvation. So therefore it could not be effective.
I don't think that is the same thing as believing in another Savior or not believing in any Savior at all.
I think the difference is that in the scripture in Hebrews they were not believing that they were saved by the blood of Jesus at all and returned to the temple sacrifice for atonement.
It says they could not be renewed because they could not sacrifice Christ again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no abandoning the gospel in some way. You either believe Jesus is the Savior that He is the only way you can be saved, or you don't. There is no in between.

You can abandon the gospel through neglect, or sloth, not just a rebellious outward defiance of the truth. I'm of the opinion this will be how the bulk of us humans will miss out on the kingdom. Passive unbelievers who did not challenge the truth of God with clenched fist in the air, but who simply fell asleep.

Be honest Jethro, give an example of how one can no longer believe their Savior is their Savior without knowing it. Give one example of how a person can reject Christ and not know it.

After you read 1 John, read in the gospels about the people who were surprised as when a thief breaks in at Jesus' coming. And consider those who walked and talked with Jesus and ministered in their gifts only to find out they are not going to be welcome in the Kingdom of God they ministered in their gifts for.