Women submitting to their husbands

Butch5 said:
Hmmm... The man is supposed to love unconditionally but the woman is not to submit unconditionally?
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WHY on earth should she? Should a man have complete and total control over a woman even if that control does not have a foundation in love or Biblical principal? Should a woman submit if the man is hitting her? Should she submit if the man treats her like a house servant? THAT IS NOT FAIR TO HER AND THAT IS NOT GOD'S INTENDED PURPOSE FOR WOMEN! As women, we have minds and we can think for ourselves!

Alright testimony time! As a Christian woman I always learned "submit to your husband like a good little girl." At my school I was put to SHAME for being a woman! Why would God create women only for her to be shamed for what she is? Do you even know WHY women were created???http://survivor1288.tumblr.com/post/85223325120/women-part-1-eve I am DONE being ashamed because I am a woman! I am DONE! Being ashamed of being a woman played a part in some VERY TERRIBLE things happening to me!

Not to mention look at unconditional submission: what comes out of that? abusive relationships, lack of love. That is NOT what God intends! I would say something very rude but this is a Christian forum.:rollingpin <--- so take that! :woot2
 
Jesusfreak97 said:
WHY on earth should she? Should a man have complete and total control over a woman even if that control does not have a foundation in love or Biblical principal? Should a woman submit if the man is hitting her? Should she submit if the man treats her like a house servant? THAT IS NOT FAIR TO HER AND THAT IS NOT GOD'S INTENDED PURPOSE FOR WOMEN! As women, we have minds and we can think for ourselves!

Alright testimony time! As a Christian woman I always learned "submit to your husband like a good little girl." At my school I was put to SHAME for being a woman! Why would God create women only for her to be shamed for what she is? Do you even know WHY women were created???http://survivor1288.tumblr.com/post/85223325120/women-part-1-eve I am DONE being ashamed because I am a woman! I am DONE! Being ashamed of being a woman played a part in some VERY TERRIBLE things happening to me!

Not to mention look at unconditional submission: what comes out of that? abusive relationships, lack of love. That is NOT what God intends! I would say something very rude but this is a Christian forum.:rollingpin <--- so that that! :woot2
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It seems to me that you posted the piece looking for a fight. If you noticed, I put a question mark at the end of the sentence. Why would expect unconditional love from the man if your not willing to give unconditional submission? What I got out of that was that the man is to give all no matter what and the woman is to submit if "She thinks" the man is meeting his Biblical requirements.

On another point, if the woman actually spent the time to get to know the man before marriage there's a good chance that she wouldn't get into an abusive relationship. However, today people meet and think they're in love two weeks later, they're married two months later and divorced two years later. That's one reason why women wind up in abusive relationships.

On the fairness issue, life is not fair. Jesus didn't say just obey me when it's fair for everyone. One person becomes a believer in America and lives out his life another person becomes a believer in some anti Christian country and is killed for being a believer, is that fair? Should the person renounce Christ and say it's not fair God, the American believer doesn't have to die to believe? Paul said that the woman was to submit to her husband because it was God's created order. Man is the head of woman and Christ is the head of man and God is the head of Christ.

I don't know what happened to you, I would just give council not to go to the other extreme.
 
Butch5 said:
It seems to me that you posted the piece looking for a fight. If you noticed, I put a question mark at the end of the sentence. Why would expect unconditional love from the man if your not willing to give unconditional submission? What I got out of that was that the man is to give all no matter what and the woman is to submit if "She thinks" the man is meeting his Biblical requirements.

On another point, if the woman actually spent the time to get to know the man before marriage there's a good chance that she wouldn't get into an abusive relationship. However, today people meet and think they're in love two weeks later, they're married two months later and divorced two years later. That's one reason why women wind up in abusive relationships.

On the fairness issue, life is not fair. Jesus didn't say just obey me when it's fair for everyone. One person becomes a believer in America and lives out his life another person becomes a believer in some anti Christian country and is killed for being a believer, is that fair? Should the person renounce Christ and say it's not fair God, the American believer doesn't have to die to believe? Paul said that the woman was to submit to her husband because it was God's created order. Man is the head of woman and Christ is the head of man and God is the head of Christ.

I don't know what happened to you, I would just give council not to go to the other extreme.
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I am not looking for a fight. It came accross as very blunt and in my face and I kinda snapped because I did experence some pretty scary stuff...anyway I am sorry if I isintereperted. I came looking for intelectual discussion and not: well women should submit unconditionally (that is how it came accross) Also I don't think i am going to the extreme by saying that a woman needs to evaluate the mans descisions based on biblical principal then decide if she is to submit.
 
Not to mention...men are prone to doing things out of selfish ambition. Also I never said that a woman should marry the first guy she sees. If she does that's dumb. Part of the reason I poseted that is so women know what to look for....and so men know what to strive for. I am tired of the whole "women must do whatever a man says whenever he says it" that has never made sense and can only produce evil. God is not evil. So me and a friend wrote what was on our hearts. It made sense. If you have scripture to back up what we said was wrong I would like to hear it. ;-)
 
Jesusfreak97 said:
Not to mention...men are prone to doing things out of selfish ambition. Also I never said that a woman should marry the first guy she sees. If she does that's dumb. Part of the reason I poseted that is so women know what to look for....and so men know what to strive for. I am tired of the whole "women must do whatever a man says whenever he says it" that has never made sense and can only produce evil. God is not evil. So me and a friend wrote what was on our hearts. It made sense. If you have scripture to back up what we said was wrong I would like to hear it. ;-)
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I didn't say what you said was wrong. My concern is why you expect unconditional love without reciprocation. Men aren't the only ones who do things out of self ambition, that goes both ways, take it from someone who knows. I also didn't suggest that a woman should do whatever a man suggests. The Bible commands the husband to love his wife and for the wife to submit to her husband. There are no qualifiers given. Scripture doesn't say husbands love your wife when she's meeting your needs or cleaning up after you and likewise it doesn't say wives submit to you husbands only when you agree with him. God has created an order that He expects believers to observe, now that not blind obedience that says, "whatever you say dear". If one of the two is truly doing their part chances are it will entice the other to do their part. Now, that may not be the case every time but I think it is a general rule.
 
Jesusfreak97 said:
So me and a friend wrote a blog post:

http://survivor1288.tumblr.com/post/85236257245/should-women-submit-themselves-to-their-husbands-men

It's all about if women should submit themselves to their husbands. We wrote what was on our hearts. What do you think?
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Gday Jesusfreak,

This is a touchy subject and also one that get's mixed messages.


Many times in the church and in modern day society these ideas are twisted to make women be less than men. However, looking back in Galatians 3:28 Faith in Christ Jesus is what makes each of you equal with each other, whether you are a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a man or a woman.

This verse is saying that in Christ we are all one. The verse also getting rid of negative superiority and inferiority views.
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Headship is to do with the created order which Yahweh instituted for a reason. It goes back to before the Garden and it has very important ramifications which we mostly disregard. In Christ we are all one but this doesn't change the headship situation and why it was instigated. It is correct that the onus is upon the husband imo to exercise the correct attitude towards his wife ( as Christ loves the Church ) and that the wife should submit in this case as we all submit to Christ. There is an interesting stipulation going on here too though that I think you're trying to get across. What if the husband doesn't love his wife perfectly ? We all know no husband is perfect and will sometime fall short of the command to love as Jesus does and we do have some safeguards in case this turns into abuse/sin.

A man and woman in Christ are also bound by the brother/sister bond and as you suggest we are all one in Christ. Jesus gave us a model of what to do if a brother/sister sins against us which would also be the case if the husband was abusive.

Mat 18:15-17 KJV Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

A woman does not have to tolerate abuse because of the headship arrangement. ( and neither does the husband )
 
agua. said:
Gday Jesusfreak,

This is a touchy subject and also one that get's mixed messages.




Headship is to do with the created order which Yahweh instituted for a reason. It goes back to before the Garden and it has very important ramifications which we mostly disregard. In Christ we are all one but this doesn't change the headship situation and why it was instigated. It is correct that the onus is upon the husband imo to exercise the correct attitude towards his wife ( as Christ loves the Church ) and that the wife should submit in this case as we all submit to Christ. There is an interesting stipulation going on here too though that I think you're trying to get across. What if the husband doesn't love his wife perfectly ? We all know no husband is perfect and will sometime fall short of the command to love as Jesus does and we do have some safeguards in case this turns into abuse/sin.

A man and woman in Christ are also bound by the brother/sister bond and as you suggest we are all one in Christ. Jesus gave us a model of what to do if a brother/sister sins against us which would also be the case if the husband was abusive.

Mat 18:15-17 KJV Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

A woman does not have to tolerate abuse because of the headship arrangement. ( and neither does the husband )
Click to expand...

hmm...What you say makes a lot of sense. And please understand that what is written in the post is not saying that men are not the head. They are. The point of the post is that society has put a label on women that to "submit" means that we are less, that we are to do whatever the man says, whenever he says it. I cannot see that as being the case.

I like how you pointed out Matthew 18:15-17.

What I was hoping to do in the post, is not only hold the woman accountable in submission and not only the man in leadership but in addition to that hold the man accountable to love his wife and hold the woman accountable, when submitting to use her head and not follow blindly.
 
Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

This old gal thinks the article was fine. I believe i read balance and not blind submission :)
 
Butch5 said:
I didn't say what you said was wrong. My concern is why you expect unconditional love without reciprocation. Men aren't the only ones who do things out of self ambition, that goes both ways, take it from someone who knows. I also didn't suggest that a woman should do whatever a man suggests. The Bible commands the husband to love his wife and for the wife to submit to her husband. There are no qualifiers given. Scripture doesn't say husbands love your wife when she's meeting your needs or cleaning up after you and likewise it doesn't say wives submit to you husbands only when you agree with him. God has created an order that He expects believers to observe, now that not blind obedience that says, "whatever you say dear". If one of the two is truly doing their part chances are it will entice the other to do their part. Now, that may not be the case every time but I think it is a general rule.
Click to expand...

I think we are saying the same thing. The only difference is that you see it as a general rule, and I see it as something else. I really think we are saying close to the same thing and I know there is a difference....I dunno...

I know women do things out of selfish ambition. I KNOW! I am one so I KNOW! XD The BIble talks about this in the context of a culture where women were second class citizens. So I don't think the language would have sounded so foriegn regarding the women. But in that day and age asking husbands to love their wives! That was unheard of! Asking a husband to stay FAITHFUL?? why would he want to do that? In a way this originally was meant to uplift women to a higher position. Yet today with the whole feminsim thing, it degrades them and when misinterperted can make way for some horrible things to be done.

I think that we need to stop playing "my gender is better than yours" and really look at how people today interpret the issue of women in the Bible. It leads to some very dark places. Which is why me and my friend made that post.

It's not about putting women in a place where they shouldn't. It's because society has taken it waaay out of context and used it in a way that does hurt women. I should know.
 
reba said:
Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

This old gal thinks the article was fine. I believe i read balance and not blind submission :)
Click to expand...

Thank you Reba! :)
 
Jesusfreak97 said:
hmm...What you say makes a lot of sense. And please understand that what is written in the post is not saying that men are not the head. They are. The point of the post is that society has put a label on women that to "submit" means that we are less, that we are to do whatever the man says, whenever he says it. I cannot see that as being the case.

I like how you pointed out Matthew 18:15-17.

What I was hoping to do in the post, is not only hold the woman accountable in submission and not only the man in leadership but in addition to that hold the man accountable to love his wife and hold the woman accountable, when submitting to use her head and not follow blindly.
Click to expand...

The problem is that Christianity today is very different from what Jesus and the apostles taught. Therefore these commands often get overlooked. Many times Christians are no different than the world around them. If that is the case then they are going to act like the world around them. Jesus said to love your neighbor, how many do you see doing that? America is a "me" centered nation and as such many times the Christians in it are "me" centered. Just ask a Christian who has changed churches why they changed and the typical answer is, "it wasn't meeting my needs" or " I wasn't getting anything out of it". So, to find the Biblical husband or wife in such a culture is difficult to say the least.
 
agua. said:
Gday Jesusfreak,

This is a touchy subject and also one that get's mixed messages.




Headship is to do with the created order which Yahweh instituted for a reason. It goes back to before the Garden and it has very important ramifications which we mostly disregard. In Christ we are all one but this doesn't change the headship situation and why it was instigated. It is correct that the onus is upon the husband imo to exercise the correct attitude towards his wife ( as Christ loves the Church ) and that the wife should submit in this case as we all submit to Christ. There is an interesting stipulation going on here too though that I think you're trying to get across. What if the husband doesn't love his wife perfectly ? We all know no husband is perfect and will sometime fall short of the command to love as Jesus does and we do have some safeguards in case this turns into abuse/sin.

A man and woman in Christ are also bound by the brother/sister bond and as you suggest we are all one in Christ. Jesus gave us a model of what to do if a brother/sister sins against us which would also be the case if the husband was abusive.

Mat 18:15-17 KJV Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

A woman does not have to tolerate abuse because of the headship arrangement. ( and neither does the husband )
Click to expand...


Good post Dave.
 
Butch5 said:
The problem is that Christianity today is very different from what Jesus and the apostles taught. Therefore these commands often get overlooked. Many times Christians are no different than the world around them. If that is the case then they are going to act like the world around them. Jesus said to love your neighbor, how many do you see doing that? America is a "me" centered nation and as such many times the Christians in it are "me" centered. Just ask a Christian who has changed churches why they changed and the typical answer is, "it wasn't meeting my needs" or " I wasn't getting anything out of it". So, to find the Biblical husband or wife in such a culture is difficult to say the least.
Click to expand...

http://survivor1288.tumblr.com/post/84659964770

Omg! really? REALLY?? Because I don't want women to be doormats that is being "me" centered. I'm sorry but what I am hearing is "the man is the head and women submit no matter what because the Bible says so"

http://survivor1288.tumblr.com/

take a look at the blog in it's enirty please. It seems to me that you are the one looking for a fight. Also look here:

http://survivor1288.tumblr.com/post/83956185544/garden-of-eden
 
Jesusfreak97 said:
http://survivor1288.tumblr.com/post/84659964770

Omg! really? REALLY?? Because I don't want women to be doormats that is being "me" centered. I'm sorry but what I am hearing is "the man is the head and women submit no matter what because the Bible says so"

http://survivor1288.tumblr.com/

take a look at the blog in it's enirty please. It seems to me that you are the one looking for a fight. Also look here:

http://survivor1288.tumblr.com/post/83956185544/garden-of-eden
Click to expand...

That's not what I was saying. What I am saying is that most Americans tend to be me centered, whereas the Bible tells us to put others before ourselves therefore there is a conflict between the Biblical admonition and our culture. People grow up in our culture before the become Christians. This means that one has to make a change in their thinking process to learn to put others first. Some never make the change. That's where the problem comes from.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The man is "Never" told in Scripture to make his wife submissive, it's not his place. God calls the wife to obey Him (God) and submit to her husband. The wife's submission is in response to her obedience to God, not her husband. Does that help clear things up?
 
no. That actually makes NO sense whatsoever. yes the wife's submission is supposed to be out of submission to God, no the man is never to make the wife "submissive" to him. But if the man makes a descision that is not based on Biblical principal...should the wife just go along? Should the wife go along if the man makes a mistake in his thinking? Should she go along if he misinterprets something in the Bible? What if the man tells his wife "the Bible says that we have to kill our son because he didn't clean his room. It says so in the Bible. Go get my gun out of closet." should the wife go along with that? or should she go to scripture and analyze what the Bible says about the issue before choosing whether or not to obey? I know that is an extreme example but I am trying to get a point across.
 
Also part of the point I am making it doesn't matter what the Bible says. It matters how society has twisted it and used it to hurt women. do you understand now?
 
Jesusfreak97 said:
no. That actually makes NO sense whatsoever. yes the wife's submission is supposed to be out of submission to God, no the man is never to make the wife "submissive" to him. But if the man makes a descision that is not based on Biblical principal...should the wife just go along? Should the wife go along if the man makes a mistake in his thinking? Should she go along if he misinterprets something in the Bible? What if the man tells his wife "the Bible says that we have to kill our son because he didn't clean his room. It says so in the Bible. Go get my gun out of closet." should the wife go along with that? or should she go to scripture and analyze what the Bible says about the issue before choosing whether or not to obey? I know that is an extreme example but I am trying to get a point across.
Click to expand...

Jesusfreak can you tell me what your definition of headship is and how this looks in a marriage ?
 
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