Women submitting to their husbands

[Jesusfreak97]

you are correct. Shouldn't the wife be allowed to say "no" if the husband has a lapse in judgement or even just a result of human nature is blinded by something and the wife sees "well that doesn't line up with God's word...I don't want to do that" should she have to do it anyway? or should she go to her husband and be like "Hey sweetie, so you know that thing you wanted to do? I think you may want to look at this verse and check your heart and mind." and then if he doesn't want to listen to her then something is seriously wrong with his heart and the wife needs to go talk to someone about it. As opposed to blind submission and "whatever the man says go no matter what."

If the husband wants his wife to give him a back rub or something yeah she should do it, but not because he said so but because she loves him. If the wife asks the husband to watch a chick flick he should do it out of love.

Now flip it. Let's say a man makes a really good choice and it is in line with scripture and his heart is in the right place and maybe the wife's heart is not in the best place. That would be appropriate for the guy to be like "yeah we're doing this. Lemme show you why" then he would explain and show her where in the Bible it backs up his decision. And if she still doesn't like it then her heart isn't where it should be and then they need to work together to get her heart back on track.

This is how many women hear it:

Man says "We are doing this. end of story." and the wife has to go along with it. and the husband will humor her by "submitting" to her while she has to do everything he says.

I hope this makes sense. I want it to be clear that when a man's heart and decision making is not in line with God's word she can say no.

 

[agua.]

*facepalm* my point was actually that there are a lot of women that this is a very real struggle. If anything I said was un-bliblical. Point out the verse that can disprove everything I have said. Please. However, you don't know what it means to be told that you don't have a voice cuz you're a girl. It's not humbling, it's shameful. God is supposed to take away our shame. No evil is supposed to come from God. Evil comes from humans. In Christ there should be no shame. Even while we are here on earth.

From agree to facepalm in one easy lesson :D

 

[Deborah13]

you are correct. Shouldn't the wife be allowed to say "no" if the husband has a lapse in judgement or even just a result of human nature is blinded by something and the wife sees "well that doesn't line up with God's word...I don't want to do that" should she have to do it anyway? or should she go to her husband and be like "Hey sweetie, so you know that thing you wanted to do? I think you may want to look at this verse and check your heart and mind." and then if he doesn't want to listen to her then something is seriously wrong with his heart and the wife needs to go talk to someone about it. As opposed to blind submission and "whatever the man says go no matter what."

If the husband wants his wife to give him a back rub or something yeah she should do it, but not because he said so but because she loves him. If the wife asks the husband to watch a chick flick he should do it out of love.

Now flip it. Let's say a man makes a really good choice and it is in line with scripture and his heart is in the right place and maybe the wife's heart is not in the best place. That would be appropriate for the guy to be like "yeah we're doing this. Lemme show you why" then he would explain and show her where in the Bible it backs up his decision. And if she still doesn't like it then her heart isn't where it should be and then they need to work together to get her heart back on track.

This is how many women hear it:

Man says "We are doing this. end of story." and the wife has to go along with it. and the husband will humor her by "submitting" to her while she has to do everything he says.

I hope this makes sense. I want it to be clear that when a man's heart and decision making is not in line with God's word she can say no.

Can you give one good example of something that he could be asking his wife to do or go along with that she shouldn't that you are referring to? I'm kind of confused about what you think that might be.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I think we are saying the same thing. The only difference is that you see it as a general rule, and I see it as something else. I really think we are saying close to the same thing and I know there is a difference....I dunno...

I know women do things out of selfish ambition. I KNOW! I am one so I KNOW! XD The BIble talks about this in the context of a culture where women were second class citizens. So I don't think the language would have sounded so foriegn regarding the women. But in that day and age asking husbands to love their wives! That was unheard of! Asking a husband to stay FAITHFUL?? why would he want to do that? In a way this originally was meant to uplift women to a higher position. Yet today with the whole feminsim thing, it degrades them and when misinterperted can make way for some horrible things to be done.

I think that we need to stop playing "my gender is better than yours" and really look at how people today interpret the issue of women in the Bible. It leads to some very dark places. Which is why me and my friend made that post.

It's not about putting women in a place where they shouldn't. It's because society has taken it waaay out of context and used it in a way that does hurt women. I should know.

This to my estimation is a balanced view and a proper perspective on how this teaching would have been received in the 1st Century.

I look at it this way, men and women are ontologically equal but sometimes functionally subordinate. What that means is that the value and worth of men and women are equal, yet within the context of marriage (and only marriage) there are two different roles. This isn't doesn't mean that the man can abuse his role and expect utter obedience to his authority, the key is for her to submit as long as the leadership is according to God's principles outlined in the Bible.

 

[Edward]

Wow, what a thread! Interesting. Jesusfreak, I would ask why do you repeatedly ask for biblical principle, and then later say that what the bible says doesn't matter?

Here's your biblical principle, sister;

Ephesians 5: 14-
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband./(KJV)

I point your attention to verse 22. When you speak of this verse, why leave the second half off of it in your comment? "as unto the Lord", sister! There's your biblical principle with no qualifiers. v 23-24 "
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing./ Period. That IS the principle. Men did not create women's station in life, GOD DID. So I ask with all due respect, if the Lord asked you to do something that you didn't want to do, would you deny Him? It does sound like you're looking for a fight, or at the very least, some justification for perhaps some rebellion against your Husband? (I'm assuming you're married). I can't seem to find that verse sister which says that would be ok.

In fairness, I will speak of the man's responsibilities. To love the wife unconditionally. I used to think that love was a two way street, but this is not so. It has been shown to me that Love is a one way street. Do I love my wife? Yes. Well, what if she wrongs me? Do I have the right to be offended? To punish? To take offense? NO! I LOVE her. I don't love her "if"...I simply love her. If she wrongs me, I am not the victim...she has lost her way and needs my love and support. I am to love her "as myself!" Would I punish myself? No, I would live and learn, and try not to make the same mistake again. So for her, the wife I love, the same. Are we not ONE? Do I not love her, myself? Yes...so it must be. "As Christ loved the Church" is a big statement. He DIED for the church and they killed Him. Did he take offense? No. He said Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. That is love. Do you agree with this?

Then consider this. The Lord has instructed you to do this thing. If your husband treats you poorly...live unto the Lord. Live for the Spirit, sister. If you are an example for him, you will be rewarded, and perhaps set your husband back on the right path. If you continue to be abused in any manner, it would be the husband persecuting you for the Lords sake, for which you will also be rewarded if you hang in there. Be an overcomer. Understand that we are in training for the Lord and all that we do is to be unto the Lord.

There's more to it than half a verse sister. Read the entire chapter and meditate on these things. Your pride will draw you away from the Lord. It IS hard, I know. Blessings from the Lord, with much wisdom and understanding be upon you sister. I will pray for you.

It was a good article. I agreed with all except the very last line.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

it is not shameful for a disciple to do what Jesus says, nor for a wife to do what her husband says. it is not humbling either, because the disciple, the wife too, would already be humble. Jesus never told the disciples it was okay to obey "when they felt like it". Israel was never told it was okay to disobey Yhwh if they "felt like it". It is never a matter of feelings, but of obedience. Today's world emphasizes feelings, exalts them, gives them prominence. That is deception.
In the military, if a private refuses an order , any order, because he "feels like it", he can be convicted in court-martial, and put to death for it in war time.
Likewise to let feelings interfere with obedience to Yhwh, may result in massive loss of life and more.
As long as feelings are allowed to lead, obedience is impossible. The only way to deal righteously, God's Way, with the emotions, is as it is written "I have been crucified with Christ, never-the-less I live, yet not I, but Christ who lives in me, and the life that I now live I live by trusting faith in the Son of God Who Loved me and gave Himself for me."

 

[Edward]

Good point brother. As Christians...with Christ in us and us in Christ, we have three responsibilities to summarize as I see it. Be faithful, accountable, and teachable. Even women, lol.

 

[Jesusfreak97]

Can you give one good example of something that he could be asking his wife to do or go along with that she shouldn't that you are referring to? I'm kind of confused about what you think that might be.

"honey look at the numbers we simply can't give 10% this year."

"I really don't feel that God is leading us to give to that organization to the poor"
With this one he really might not feel like God is leading him to give to the organization. His heart may be in the right place and everything however it might not be God giving him that feeling but another spirit of some sort. That's why it's always good for a woman to double check. ;-)

Look, I'm in college, I don't know how the real world works. I don't know how married life works. I know both men and women have hearts that can be deceived and even with the best intentions can be led astray. So if a man is in that situation and a woman picks up on it, why should she be forced to go along with it?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

women have been hurt a lot. feelings are paramount in their lives (until they are Redeemed), and in men's lives too. - they all do what is right in their own eyes; if it feels right, do it, it's okay. (all a lie).
but feelings are paramount in peoples lives, feelings are important to them.

like the riches were important to the rich young man. >>>
Matthew 19:16-22
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
16 A man approached Yeshua and said, “Rabbi, what good thing should I do in order to have eternal life?” He said to him, 17 “Why are you asking me about good? There is One who is good! But if you want to obtain eternal life, observe the mitzvot.” 18 The man asked him, “Which ones?” and Yeshua said, “Don’t murder, don’t commit adultery, don’t steal, don’t give false testimony 19 honor father and mother and love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “I have kept all these; where do I still fall short?” 21 Yeshua said to him, “If you are serious about reaching the goal, go and sell your possessions, give to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come, follow me!” 22 But when the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he was wealthy.

and like the riches, emotions and feelings , however paramount, however important, must be dealt with - and God in His Mercy Provides This Too. He doesn't add any shame nor regret to anyone who turns to Him, but accepts them with Perfect Love and Acceptance and Fullness of LIfe and Righteousness , Peace and Joy as a free Gift in Jesus Christ. All His Provision. All His Way. All as it is Written.

 

[Jesusfreak97]

Wow, what a thread! Interesting. Jesusfreak, I would ask why do you repeatedly ask for biblical principle, and then later say that what the bible says doesn't matter?

Here's your biblical principle, sister;

Ephesians 5: 14-
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband./(KJV)

I point your attention to verse 22. When you speak of this verse, why leave the second half off of it in your comment? "as unto the Lord", sister! There's your biblical principle with no qualifiers. v 23-24 "
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing./ Period. That IS the principle. Men did not create women's station in life, GOD DID. So I ask with all due respect, if the Lord asked you to do something that you didn't want to do, would you deny Him? It does sound like you're looking for a fight, or at the very least, some justification for perhaps some rebellion against your Husband? (I'm assuming you're married). I can't seem to find that verse sister which says that would be ok.

In fairness, I will speak of the man's responsibilities. To love the wife unconditionally. I used to think that love was a two way street, but this is not so. It has been shown to me that Love is a one way street. Do I love my wife? Yes. Well, what if she wrongs me? Do I have the right to be offended? To punish? To take offense? NO! I LOVE her. I don't love her "if"...I simply love her. If she wrongs me, I am not the victim...she has lost her way and needs my love and support. I am to love her "as myself!" Would I punish myself? No, I would live and learn, and try not to make the same mistake again. So for her, the wife I love, the same. Are we not ONE? Do I not love her, myself? Yes...so it must be. "As Christ loved the Church" is a big statement. He DIED for the church and they killed Him. Did he take offense? No. He said Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. That is love. Do you agree with this?

Then consider this. The Lord has instructed you to do this thing. If your husband treats you poorly...live unto the Lord. Live for the Spirit, sister. If you are an example for him, you will be rewarded, and perhaps set your husband back on the right path. If you continue to be abused in any manner, it would be the husband persecuting you for the Lords sake, for which you will also be rewarded if you hang in there. Be an overcomer. Understand that we are in training for the Lord and all that we do is to be unto the Lord.

There's more to it than half a verse sister. Read the entire chapter and meditate on these things. Your pride will draw you away from the Lord. It IS hard, I know. Blessings from the Lord, with much wisdom and understanding be upon you sister. I will pray for you.

It was a good article. I agreed with all except the very last line.

If you agreed with all except the last line then laybe I need to make it clearer. The whole thing is circular. When I say do not obey from reading the article you should know that that goes back to what the article says about saying no and respecting the husband. Geez!

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

.......

Look, I'm in college, I don't know how the real world works. I don't know how married life works. I know both men and women have hearts that can be deceived and even with the best intentions can be led astray. So if a man is in that situation and a woman picks up on it, why should she be forced to go along with it?

ekklesia find joyfully that a tithe is not near enough to give to God. but that's another point for elsewhere.

"why should she?" (not 'forced' - if she is immersed in Jesus, she joyfully , willingly obeys; and God provides the joy and willingness and grace and life and everything pertaining to Life ---- God never requires something He doesn't provide for , indeed , He has already provided for ! in Jesus)
she will joyfully and willingly obey her husband if she is immersed in Jesus. if she is not, it doesn't matter what she does. same in the world, i.e. if someone obeys by rote, trusting that that will help them with God in some way, they are already failed...

 

[Jesusfreak97]

it is not shameful for a disciple to do what Jesus says, nor for a wife to do what her husband says. it is not humbling either, because the disciple, the wife too, would already be humble. Jesus never told the disciples it was okay to obey "when they felt like it". Israel was never told it was okay to disobey Yhwh if they "felt like it". It is never a matter of feelings, but of obedience. Today's world emphasizes feelings, exalts them, gives them prominence. That is deception.
In the military, if a private refuses an order , any order, because he "feels like it", he can be convicted in court-martial, and put to death for it in war time.
Likewise to let feelings interfere with obedience to Yhwh, may result in massive loss of life and more.
As long as feelings are allowed to lead, obedience is impossible. The only way to deal righteously, God's Way, with the emotions, is as it is written "I have been crucified with Christ, never-the-less I live, yet not I, but Christ who lives in me, and the life that I now live I live by trusting faith in the Son of God Who Loved me and gave Himself for me."

Am I saying that it is ok to obey when a woman feels like it? no! I am saying when a man is out of line with scripture then and only then a woman should not submit. and on the flip side a man is only allowed to run things from within the confines of scripture!

 

[Jesusfreak97]

how many of you guys have actually prayed about this issue? I feel like this is less about what is right and more about BEING right. We need to all do a heart check then go back and re-read this.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

"..... they are already failed".... remember the whole world has failed, and most of religious society too(most all leaders, religious or not).
so it is very rare to find an example of righteous life. we are surrounded with evil, wicked , death dealing selfish people all over the place, throughout the world.
only God provides a Way of Salvation. already paid for. already provided for. in Jesus.
not just eternal life, but righteousness, peace and joy, right now. today. His Provision. His Free Gift. in Jesus.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

there's few things a man could do that a Godly wife might refuse to do, and she accepts the consequences when she does.
like the believers who refused to stop preaching Christ. they did not fight the authorities nor resist the authorities when they were put to death for their refusal. they accepted even death peacefully with joy in Yeshua, as their lives belong to Him.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

p.s. a believer who is owned by a pagan master even, is told to obey the pagan master as if obeying Yeshua Himself - to obey loyally and honestly and with full exertion of strength as needed.
there may be exceptions to some 'orders', but it doesn't matter that the owner/master is pagan; he is to be obeyed. and then if disobeyed, as Yhwh may indeed require, then the penalty of that disobedience is accepted willingly and trusting totally in God for the outcome (God may or may not intervene, as He Chooses to or not to - He is still in charge).

Ephesians 6:2-6
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
2 “Honor your father and mother” — this is the first commandment that embodies a promise — 3 “so that it may go well with you, and you may live long in the Land.”

4 Fathers, don’t irritate your children and make them resentful; instead, raise them with the Lord’s kind of discipline and guidance.

5 Slaves, obey your human masters with the same fear, trembling and single-heartedness with which you obey the Messiah. 6 Don’t obey just to win their favor, serving only when they are watching you; but serve as slaves of the Messiah, doing what God wants with all your heart.

 

[Jesusfreak97]

alright well if you guys don't even want to CONSIDER how I think or do a heart check then there is no point in me continuing this. You are right, this world is corrupt and full of evil people. God's word is not evil, it cannot produce evil. If you look at some of these comments, some are suggesting that harm come to women in the name of Christ because the Bible says so. *shakes head* If God's view for marriage is mutual submission then why should the woman HAVE to suffer and be subject to abuse? I am sorry but your arguments do not hold. They essentially amout to "do it because the Bible says so" I am saying "husbands shape up and be worth submitting to and don't reduce women to subservient blind bimbos without a brain!" Thank you and I am done with this thread and this website!

 

[Jesusfreak97]

Oh and one more thing: isn't it so scandelous that I want to hold the guys accountable too? OOOh! I'm SUCH a rebel!

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Oh and one more thing: isn't it so scandelous that I want to hold the guys accountable too? OOOh! I'm SUCH a rebel!

hmmm .... women explained Scripture and God's Plan more thoroughly to some disciples, and have given their testimony of Jesus, of God's Work in their lives,
but I don't remember any women ever being given authority by God nor in Scripture to hold any man accountable, nor even to try to hold him accountable.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

.... men mistreat everyone - other men, women and children, every day.
God saves men, women and children every day.
We can trust God always,and so obey Him. but don't trust men usually. (God's Word says "whoever trusts flesh, I(Yhwh) curse.")