Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[chessman]

So when they are spoken of in a general way the Bible is lying?

Such as God spitting people out of His mouth that He loves and reproves?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The actual word of God:

13"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

OSAS interpretation of those words:

"Oh, and then there is this fictitious group of people, but I'll tell you about them anyway, who receive and believe the word of God for a while, but who then fall away, but the truth is they are really a group of people who hear the word, but who didn't really receive it to begin with, and who didn't really believe it to begin with, and prove that when they fall away."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Such as God spitting people out of His mouth that He loves and reproves?

You got it.

They have made themselves a distasteful offering not pleasing to him. The whole counsel of the Bible says if they do not repent they will lose the privilege of their place of service in the kingdom of God and be assigned a place with the unbelievers. Not a spank on the rear end, or a slap on the wrist and a tongue lashing and embarrassment in the kingdom, but cast out of the kingdom and into the place where there is the torture of regret illustrated in the weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Was the following only written to the wicked servants in God's kingdom? Is he not warning the faithful servants to remain faithful, or else be cast out to the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth?

42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will. 45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

(Matthew 24:42-51 NAS)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The actual word of God:

13"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

OSAS interpretation of those words:

"Oh, and then there is this fictitious group of people, but I'll tell you about them anyway, who receive and believe the word of God for a while, but who then fall away, but the truth is they are really a group of people who hear the word, but who didn't really receive it to begin with, and who didn't really believe it to begin with, and prove that when they fall away."

The non-OSAS interpretation:
So, God gives a free gift that we cannot earn, then he'll take it back unless we earn the right to keep it.
Such contradiction, ugh!

 

[jonahmano]

The non-OSAS interpretation:
So, God gives a free gift that we cannot earn, then he'll take it back unless we earn the right to keep it.
Such contradiction, ugh!

If you had really understood how Christ suffered on the cross.

It's not that He's taking back anything. The gift of salvation is always there but you are losing it by disobedience.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The non-OSAS interpretation:
So, God gives a free gift that we cannot earn, then he'll take it back unless we earn the right to keep it.
Such contradiction, ugh!

Allen,you are showing the indoctrination of the church that has us all believing that justification is so utterly free that NOTHING, not even faith is required to possess it (you'll deny that, but hang on). That is hardly what Paul taught, but that is what we have been told what he taught means.

What he taught was that you can not earn justification by doing righteous work, and that the only way to get that is to be forgiven through trust in the blood of Christ to do that. But somewhere along the line even the requirement to trust in the blood by faith got put with the works that can't earn justification. How ridiculous! It is absolutely required that you have the 'work' of faith to possess that which faith secures. And that you have to have it to the end. But the church teaches that since salvation is so utterly free that to say you have to continue believing in order to be saved that makes salvation a works salvation and not free anymore. How stupid!

You 'earn' the right to salvation by trusting in the blood of Christ through faith. Do you want to argue that point? Do you want to toe the line for the church that teaches that even trusting in the blood of Christ as a condition for salvation makes salvation not 'free' anymore and turns it into the damnable works gospel Paul warns us about? Bring it, lol.

What's 'free' about the gospel is that you don't have to jump through the righteous hoops of good works to be justified. Free does not mean it has no conditions attached to it. It has the condition of trusting in the blood of Christ, and doing that to the end, attached to it. But that is hardly the works Paul said can not solicit salvation. If fact, he contrasts trust in the blood with the works that can not justify.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Allen,you are showing the indoctrination of the church that has us all believing that justification is so utterly free that NOTHING, not even faith is required to possess it (you'll deny that, but hang on). That is hardly what Paul taught, but that is what we have been told what he taught means.

What he taught was that you can not earn justification by doing righteous work, and that the only way to get that is to be forgiven through trust in the blood of Christ to do that. But somewhere along the line even the requirement to trust in the blood by faith got put with the works that can't earn justification. How ridiculous! It is absolutely required that you have the 'work' of faith to possess that which faith secures. And that you have to have it to the end. But the church teaches that since salvation is so utterly free that to say you have to continue believing in order to be saved that makes salvation a works salvation and not free anymore. How stupid!

You 'earn' the right to salvation by trusting in the blood of Christ through faith. Do you want to argue that point? Do you want to toe the line for the church that teaches that even trusting in the blood of Christ as a condition for salvation makes salvation not 'free' anymore and turns it into the damnable works gospel Paul warns us about? Bring it, lol.

What's 'free' about the gospel is that you don't have to jump through the righteous hoops of good works to be justified. Free does not mean it has no conditions attached to it. It has the condition of trusting in the blood of Christ, and doing that to the end, attached to it. But that is hardly the works Paul said can not solicit salvation. If fact, he contrasts trust in the blood with the works that can not justify.

I've never mentioned the church or made any statements supporting the stance of the church.
The OP never mentions the church.
Only you do.
You are basing your beliefs here against what you see as the church teaching.

I have mentioned faith in previous post(s) but have never stated that I believe that we don't need it to be saved.
My whole stance with OSAS is that we belong to Jesus and he promises never to let go of those that belong to him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've never mentioned the church or made any statements supporting the stance of the church.
The OP never mentions the church.
Only you do.
You are basing your beliefs here against what you see as the church teaching.

I have mentioned faith in previous post(s) but have never stated that I believe that we don't need it to be saved.
My whole stance with OSAS is that we belong to Jesus and he promises never to let go of those that belong to him.

It told you you'd prolly deny it, but you may not realize that the fundamental OSAS argument removes faith as a condition for the assurance of being saved on the day of wrath because that would make salvation by works. But perhaps you want to insist that it's impossible for a believer to not believe. To which I insist that you explain why the Bible warns us to not believe once we have believed or else lose our reconciliation to God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My whole stance with OSAS is that we belong to Jesus and he promises never to let go of those that belong to him.

So let's be clear. Are you saying that his promise even trumps the requirement to continue in the faith that solicited the promise in the first place? Or are you simply saying that it's impossible for a believer to permanently lose his faith and trust in God?


Let's not forget that the father let go of the prodigal son. He did not cast him out against his will. He let him go. This is analogous, IMO, to our heavenly Father turning us over to the lusts of the flesh so that they can be put to death and crucified so we can be saved on the Day of Judgment.

The sinful fellow at Corinth was turned over to the lusts of the flesh that he had chosen to indulge in the hope that he, like the prodigal son, would come back with those lusts crucified and he would be prepared to serve once again in his Father's household. I don't know where we get this guarantee that every believer who gets turned over to the flesh so that flesh can be crucified and put to death so they can be saved on the Day of Judgment will in fact, no exceptions, come back crucified and walking in repentance.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Jesus will not let go of those that belong to him, period.
He is God, and he will find a way to make it right.

 

[Deborah13]

Let's not forget that the father let go of the prodigal son. He did not cast him out against his will. He let him go. This is analogous, IMO, to our heavenly Father turning us over to the lusts of the flesh so that they can be put to death and crucified so we can be saved on the Day of Judgment.

Ah....yes the father let the son learn an important lesson. But the father never turned his face away from the son, he watched for him every day, the father saw the son returning home before the son even saw the father. The father hugged and kissed him before the son even apologized.
This is the picture of God's mercy and grace.

Like allenwynne said, "He is God, and He will find a way to make it right."

I praise God that when we stumble or even fall He looks at our hearts and......

Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

 

[WIP]

Unless I'm misinterpreting what I'm reading, it seems this discussion is getting a bit more heated than necessary. Let's try to bring it back down a notch please.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus will not let go of those that belong to him, period.
He is God, and he will find a way to make it right.

So it sounds like you are of the persuasion that eternal security means God will always insure that, ultimately, you will have the faith that is required to be saved.

I understand and agree completely with God's long suffering and his far reaching hand to guard those who are his. And we can take great comfort in that. And I can honestly say that it is because God is that, that I, personally, have stayed in the faith to date. But I don't see, Biblically, that God will see to it that every person who has faith now will always have that faith because God makes sure of it. That contradicts the warnings of the Bible for faithful people to continue to believe and serve in careful, faithful watchfulness for the return of the master or else be put away with the hypocrites and unbelievers when he does arrive. Why warn us of something that can not happen? I used to say it was because the warning itself was how he accomplished that. The problem is that still reduces it to a false, theoretical warning that in reality we don't have to fear, 'cause it can't happen. Think about it.

I'm sorry, allen, but in the parables of the kingdom, I see God releasing his servants. Servants who were servants, nonetheless, but who simply did not stay alert and prepared for the return of the Master by not faithfully dispensing the Master's goods and riches they had been entrusted with. Is it really true that this simply will not happen because all unfaithful servants will be brought to repentance before his return? I'm not getting that out of those teachings.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So let's be clear. Are you saying that his promise even trumps the requirement to continue in the faith that solicited the promise in the first place? Or are you simply saying that it's impossible for a believer to permanently lose his faith and trust in God?


Let's not forget that the father let go of the prodigal son. He did not cast him out against his will. He let him go. This is analogous, IMO, to our heavenly Father turning us over to the lusts of the flesh so that they can be put to death and crucified so we can be saved on the Day of Judgment.

The sinful fellow at Corinth was turned over to the lusts of the flesh that he had chosen to indulge in the hope that he, like the prodigal son, would come back with those lusts crucified and he would be prepared to serve once again in his Father's household. I don't know where we get this guarantee that every believer who gets turned over to the flesh so that flesh can be crucified and put to death so they can be saved on the Day of Judgment will in fact, no exceptions, come back crucified and walking in repentance.

I've always said from the beginning that if a person walks away from Christ and never comes back, then he is not really saved.
I can show another 50 verses that support OSAS but I'm sure you will find a way to dispute them.
So I will end with this.
1 John 2:19: NIV
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us: but their going showed that none of them belonged to us".

 

[Butch5]

Remember, salvation is eternal life, that life is given at the resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

If OSAS is true why can't we find it in Church history prior to the 1500's? Augustine posited "Perseverance of the Saints," however, that idea was rejected by the church. We don't see OSAS as an accepted church doctrine until the Reformation and the teaching of reformers such as Calvin. Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk and studied the writings of Augustine. Calvin was a stoic, the stoics believed in fatalism.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've always said from the beginning that if a person walks away from Christ and never comes back, then he is not really saved.

Did you mean to say they were never saved? Because I agree completely that you have to come back to Christ in repentance in order to have the hope of salvation again.

1 John 2:19: NIV
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us: but their going showed that none of them belonged to us".

How does a minister of the gospel leaving a ministry because he's a false teacher and was never really with the program mean all believers who leave their faith in Christ were never saved to begin with?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Did you mean to say they were never saved? Because I agree completely that you have to come back to Christ in repentance in order to have the hope of salvation again.


How does a minister of the gospel leaving a ministry because he's a false teacher and was never really with the program mean all believers who leave their faith in Christ were never saved to begin with?

Don't ask me, ask John the Apostle, he wrote it.
I imagine the Holy Spirit told him.
But don't take my word for it, you better ask him yourself.

 

[Gregg]

(Php 1:6) "being persuaded of this very thing, that the One having begun a good work in you will finish it until the day of Jesus Christ;"

A Christian can repent from sin (even seventy times seven), but never looses his salvation. But, a Christian can not be born again and again and again . . .

(Heb 6:4-6) "For it is impossible for those being once enlightened, and having tasted of the heavenly gift, and becoming sharers of the Holy Spirit, and tasting the good Word of God, and the works of power of a coming age, then falling away, it is impossible for them again to renew to repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God, and putting Him to open shame."