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When Fellowship is Broken

GodsGrace

GodsGrace

CF Ambassador
We often speak of fellowship with God and we seem to understand this in different ways.

Is fellowship different from a relationship? Some think so. Some think not.

And if we break fellowship, do we still maintain a relationship?

When is fellowship broken?
And what does it mean .....

Does sinning alone break fellowship or do we need to be uncontrite?
 
wondering said:
We often speak of fellowship with God and we seem to understand this in different ways.

Is fellowship different from a relationship? Some think so. Some think not.

And if we break fellowship, do we still maintain a relationship?

When is fellowship broken?
And what does it mean .....

Does sinning alone break fellowship or do we need to be uncontrite?
Click to expand...
Fellowship is the communication between two parties.
The relationship is the history of how the fellowship has gone.

If the fellowship stops completely, then the relationship dies.
Jesus described this in His allegories of the vine.

1 I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener.
2 He takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in me. He prunes every branch that bears fruit so that it will bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15:6

A relationship can wither and die.
Jesus declares the Father will actively remove unfruitful branches.

But the criteria is not an action or problem, but a lack of life and fruit.

If you ever see kids in nursery, and how a dispute over a toy can escalate into a war, you know the difference between incidents and relationships. An incident strains a relationship, the relationship grows or dies on how the incident is later handled. You could argue incidents help the relationship to grow and develop.

Salvation is our communion with the Holy Spirit. It is alive and dynamic. If it is neither of these things, does it actually exist, and if it dies, it has lost all its meaning?
 
wondering said:
We often speak of fellowship with God and we seem to understand this in different ways.

Is fellowship different from a relationship? Some think so. Some think not.

And if we break fellowship, do we still maintain a relationship?

When is fellowship broken?
And what does it mean .....

Does sinning alone break fellowship or do we need to be uncontrite?
Click to expand...
great question - thought provoking
 
PeterJens said:
Fellowship is the communication between two parties.
The relationship is the history of how the fellowship has gone.
Click to expand...
Very interesting and the reason why I didn't post a meaning for FELLOWSHIP.

If the fellowship stops completely, then the relationship dies.
Jesus described this in His allegories of the vine.

1 I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener.
2 He takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in me. He prunes every branch that bears fruit so that it will bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2
Click to expand...
But what does HE TAKES AWAY EVERY BRANCH THAT DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT mean exactly?

And what does pruning mean?

6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15:6
Click to expand...
So it would seem like the branches that do not bear fruit are not IN CHRIST,,,since verse 4 states that we cannot bear fruit UNLESS we are IN CHRIST.

And if we are not in Christ...is it possible to still be saved?
These verses make the answer very clear,,,
IF ANYONE DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME...HE IS THROWN AWAY...
verse 6

This definitely does not sound like the loss of fellowship, but the loss of relationship,,,to use your words.

In 1 Corinthians 1:9 we are told that God has called us into FELLOWSHIP with His Son Jesus. So it certainly seems pivotal that we are IN Christ in order to have fellowship with Him, and we cannot be IN Christ if we are thrown away like a dead branch because there is no fruit.

A relationship can wither and die.
Jesus declares the Father will actively remove unfruitful branches.

But the criteria is not an action or problem, but a lack of life and fruit.
Click to expand...
Very clear response.

If you ever see kids in nursery, and how a dispute over a toy can escalate into a war, you know the difference between incidents and relationships. An incident strains a relationship, the relationship grows or dies on how the incident is later handled. You could argue incidents help the relationship to grow and develop.
Click to expand...
If the relationship is strong, an incident can be used to make it even stronger....If the relationship is not strong,,,the incident can cause the relationship to die.

As in Christianity...is forgiveness asked? Is it given? Can reconciliation take place? If not...the relationship is finished.

Salvation is our communion with the Holy Spirit. It is alive and dynamic. If it is neither of these things, does it actually exist, and if it dies, it has lost all its meaning?
Click to expand...
Yes. If we do not have fellowship with God we must fix it immediately or risk it's non-existence due to death of the relationship.

Many believe fellowship can be lost, but cannot cause the relationship to die.
 
wondering said:
Very interesting and the reason why I didn't post a meaning for FELLOWSHIP.


But what does HE TAKES AWAY EVERY BRANCH THAT DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT mean exactly?

And what does pruning mean?


So it would seem like the branches that do not bear fruit are not IN CHRIST,,,since verse 4 states that we cannot bear fruit UNLESS we are IN CHRIST.

And if we are not in Christ...is it possible to still be saved?
These verses make the answer very clear,,,
IF ANYONE DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME...HE IS THROWN AWAY...
verse 6

This definitely does not sound like the loss of fellowship, but the loss of relationship,,,to use your words.

In 1 Corinthians 1:9 we are told that God has called us into FELLOWSHIP with His Son Jesus. So it certainly seems pivotal that we are IN Christ in order to have fellowship with Him, and we cannot be IN Christ if we are thrown away like a dead branch because there is no fruit.


Very clear response.


If the relationship is strong, an incident can be used to make it even stronger....If the relationship is not strong,,,the incident can cause the relationship to die.

As in Christianity...is forgiveness asked? Is it given? Can reconciliation take place? If not...the relationship is finished.


Yes. If we do not have fellowship with God we must fix it immediately or risk it's non-existence due to death of the relationship.

Many believe fellowship can be lost, but cannot cause the relationship to die.
Click to expand...
Jesus prayed for Peter, that his denial of knowing Jesus would not lead to loosing faith, or loosing the relationship. This implies to me that there was a choice and a risk, else why would Jesus ask the Father for help.

Taking away every branch that does not bear fruit, made me think of people who seem to come to faith, but it is without substance for them and they dry up. I read a testimony of one believer who now no longer believed. He knew in the past he did, but did not now. This reminded me of this verse, removing the branch.

Pruning reminds me of hard times and discipline, where a rebuke is given and our hearts are humbled. I certainly have experienced this, felt the highs when I could do anything, and the lows where who I am to do or say anything of value. It is easy to become presumptious and to project on to others things that are not true and then speak to them. I know I have done this, unfortunately.

I think all the above points come from experience in our walk, rather than theology and working out what something means. It highlights a problem for folk who are not filled with the Holy Spirit or see as Jesus sees, because their hearts are still closed off.

God bless you.
 
wondering said:
We often speak of fellowship with God and we seem to understand this in different ways.

Is fellowship different from a relationship? Some think so. Some think not.

And if we break fellowship, do we still maintain a relationship?

When is fellowship broken?
And what does it mean .....

Does sinning alone break fellowship or do we need to be uncontrite?
Click to expand...


For the most part, those I have run across that insist that only fellowship is severed rather than relationship, tend to believe that fellowship is temporary whereas relationship is permanent.


Example: In the parable of the prodigal son, fellowship was broken, not relationship.


Fellowship - koinōnia

To me this word speaks of relationship.

Communion.



JLB
 
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PeterJens said:
Jesus prayed for Peter, that his denial of knowing Jesus would not lead to loosing faith, or loosing the relationship. This implies to me that there was a choice and a risk, else why would Jesus ask the Father for help.

Taking away every branch that does not bear fruit, made me think of people who seem to come to faith, but it is without substance for them and they dry up. I read a testimony of one believer who now no longer believed. He knew in the past he did, but did not now. This reminded me of this verse, removing the branch.

Pruning reminds me of hard times and discipline, where a rebuke is given and our hearts are humbled. I certainly have experienced this, felt the highs when I could do anything, and the lows where who I am to do or say anything of value. It is easy to become presumptious and to project on to others things that are not true and then speak to them. I know I have done this, unfortunately.

I think all the above points come from experience in our walk, rather than theology and working out what something means. It highlights a problem for folk who are not filled with the Holy Spirit or see as Jesus sees, because their hearts are still closed off.

God bless you.
Click to expand...
Good post.
Unfortunately, not everyone understands what pruning means, or what being cut off means.

So it's good to remind ourselves every now and then.

Pruning means cutting off little pieces of branches that are getting in the way, so that a tree could produce more fruit (or a vine).

Cutting off means a branch is useless and is taking away from the other branches so it is eliminated and discarded.

The above could be us...so it's good to remain in Christ.
 
JLB said:
For the most part, those I have run across that insist that only fellowship is severed rather than relationship, tend to believe that fellowship is temporary whereas relationship is permanent.


Example: In the parable of the prodigal son, fellowship was broken, not relationship.


Fellowship - koinōnia

To me this word speaks of relationship.

Communion.



JLB
Click to expand...
The prodigal son parable is an interesting parable.
It appears to be written with the perspective of a believing family, out of which a son wishes to depart to discover life, and live it to the full.

Some have suggested this is the view of a believer who backslides and goes off into the world. They are still a son, but in the world, ie still alive in God, but carnal.

This is strange as the very parable as the prodigal son returns, the father comes and meets him on the road,
"this son of mine was dead, and is alive again – he was lost and is found!"
Luke 15:24

To be dead, is like you are no more, to be lost, is to be doomed to judgement.
There is hope to restore the relationship with God, no matter how far one has strayed, but there is no security if one has chosen to break the relationship permanently.

The attitude of returning son was repentant,
18 Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; treat me like one of your hired workers
Luke 15:18-19

In a sense when we are born we know the testimony of love to our hearts and God the creator yet we turn our faces against this and chart a course to make something of our lives.

Some want this story to be we are always safe, always a son, never lost, never dead to the Father. But the profound reality is the prodigal son chose freely to get their inheritance and choose the road of indulgence, partying and revelry. This is very much the road Israel took as testified by the prophets, skilled in drinking games, but full of sin and shame. But it ended in the ditch, in failure, judgement and suffering. But the wages and house of the King is consistent, real, permanent and dependable.

A simple choice, die in the way of the world, or return to the house of the King, and restore the fellowship our hearts desire.
 
PeterJens said:
To be dead, is like you are no more, to be lost, is to be doomed to judgement.
There is hope to restore the relationship with God, no matter how far one has strayed, but there is no security if one has chosen to break the relationship permanently.
Click to expand...


Amen.

One must possess something for it to become lost.


JLB
 
JLB said:
For the most part, those I have run across that insist that only fellowship is severed rather than relationship, tend to believe that fellowship is temporary whereas relationship is permanent.


Example: In the parable of the prodigal son, fellowship was broken, not relationship.


Fellowship - koinōnia

To me this word speaks of relationship.

Communion.



JLB
Click to expand...
Communion is a good word for Koinania.
It means to share intimate thoughts with someone/or to share with someone of like interests.
When this is done....a feeling of connection developes.
Since God knows all our thoughts and He has revealed Himself to us...we can have this fellowship with Him.

Fellowship is between ourselves:
1 John 1:7
7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Jesus desired for us to have this fellowship, that we may be one in our connection:
John 17:20-21
20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

The word of God connects us:
Acts 2:42, 44
42They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
44And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;

The presence of Christ connects us:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst.

Source: Topical Study, NIV
to be cont'd.
 
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wondering said:
Communion is a good word for Koinania.
It means to share intimate thoughts with someone/or to share with someone of like interests.
When this is done....a feeling of connection developes.
Since God knows all our thoughts and He has revealed Himself to us...we can have this fellowship with Him.

Fellowship is between ourselves:
1 John 1:7
7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Jesus desired for us to have this fellowship, that we may be one in our connection:
John 17:20-21
20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

The word of God connects us:
Acts 2:42, 44
42They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
44And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;

The presence of Christ connects us:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst.

Source: Topical Study, NIV
to be cont'd.
Click to expand...
We did a study on Paul last night.
It brought to mind this,

4 For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God's power we will live with him to serve you.
2 Cor 13:4

I do not think of Jesus being weak, in need. Another phrase used in some translations is "perfected". Christ was perfected through the cross.

There is a real sense in which God made Himself weak so that the Father could fill Him up with love and support. Inter dependency is Gods way, the trust and risk involved is part of His nature. It is probably why some want security in Christ, certainty, because this is our understanding of love, but not agape love. Agape love is prepared to take the risk the other will not be there.

Jesus continually compared types of love, and how love has different values. Loving friends is easy, loving your enemy, very hard, dying for your enemy not of this world.
This understanding and vulnerability is what Jesus said would mark out His people.
And I have met people like this, though maybe I did not know how to describe it.

If a people claim to know love, yet have not discovered the risk and vulnerability, they have not really begun to understand Jesus.
 
wondering said:
Communion is a good word for Koinania.
It means to share intimate thoughts with someone/or to share with someone of like interests.
When this is done....a feeling of connection developes.
Since God knows all our thoughts and He has revealed Himself to us...we can have this fellowship with Him.
Click to expand...


Think of communion or fellowship, as “common union”.

This common union we as the Church, is the Spirit of Christ.

It’s not a temporary thing, but an eternal union with Him and each other.


If we are not in union or fellowship with Him, then we are lost.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


JLB
 
wondering said:
Many believe fellowship can be lost, but cannot cause the relationship to die.
Click to expand...
As long as one party is willing to reconcile, the relationship is not dead and can be restored. This is the meaning and secret of Yom Kippur ( day of atonement) to which most of Christianity is unaware.
 
StoveBolts said:
As long as one party is willing to reconcile, the relationship is not dead and can be restored. This is the meaning and secret of Yom Kippur ( day of atonement) to which most of Christianity is unaware.
Click to expand...
I grew up in NYC....many Jewish persons there.
I know what Yom Kippur is, but not in deep detail.

The way that I explained that some persons believe that fellowship is lost if they abandon God,,,but not relationship. They tell me that no matter HOW they live,,,they will still be saved because they believed at one time or another and they are "sealed" with the Holy Spirit and that "nothing can separate them from God.".

This is why I believe speaking about eternal security is so important...many are under a false sense of security.

If you believe that only one person is necessary to reconcile and that the relationship is not dead....then you agree with eternal non-conditional security.

However, to reconcile requires TWO persons...both must be willing to forgive, make-up, and continue with the relationship. If only one person wants to reconcile...there will be no Christian reconciliation.

This is reconciliation:


1581016554974.png
 
wondering said:
I grew up in NYC....many Jewish persons there.
I know what Yom Kippur is, but not in deep detail.

The way that I explained that some persons believe that fellowship is lost if they abandon God,,,but not relationship. They tell me that no matter HOW they live,,,they will still be saved because they believed at one time or another and they are "sealed" with the Holy Spirit and that "nothing can separate them from God.".

This is why I believe speaking about eternal security is so important...many are under a false sense of security.

If you believe that only one person is necessary to reconcile and that the relationship is not dead....then you agree with eternal non-conditional security.

However, to reconcile requires TWO persons...both must be willing to forgive, make-up, and continue with the relationship. If only one person wants to reconcile...there will be no Christian reconciliation.

This is reconciliation:


View attachment 9380
Click to expand...
Amen

Jesus came to earth to make friends. The point He was making is it is not difficult to make that friendship, but it is difficult to connect, and we are so lost in our selfishness and sin, we shut all others out.

The sad reality is, meeting the Father is not a friendly process. It is an absolute one, with great danger and difficulty. Jesus came with a message of preparation, of cleansing, of purification, of putting on the clothes of heaven so that we are able to stand. Yes the offer is staggering, but then so should be our response. The love expressed founded the universe and our world and lives in everything.

But we are either complete on that day, or chaff, blowing in the wind, useless, a shadow, not adding up to anything.

Love and weakness. The whole idea of security without respect, feeling, sensitivity, openness and honesty is just insane. No relationship works like this, especially not with the creator. He laid down repentance from the beginning, and emphasised with Cain, rejection comes for a reason, search it out, but Cain did not. It is even worse with Jesus, He asks for love, to understand His heart and to walk in His love and ways. His whole message was this is who I am, be friends with me, live like me. To think He is saying be evil and sin, do not regard my word and ways with sensitivity and a good heart and I will honour you, is just blind and dumb.

The phrase "I never knew you", could be expressed "you never knew me or listened to me, or you would have known who I was."

When people cannot let go of their hearts and let Him in, everything becomes impossible. Little wonder they then create a Jesus who ignores the sin and need and just embraces them with no conditions. Keep what you are, the life you have, and gain eternity as well. Does not match what Jesus said.

25 The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honour the one who serves me.
John 12:25-26
 
PeterJens said:
Amen

Jesus came to earth to make friends. The point He was making is it is not difficult to make that friendship, but it is difficult to connect, and we are so lost in our selfishness and sin, we shut all others out.

The sad reality is, meeting the Father is not a friendly process. It is an absolute one, with great danger and difficulty. Jesus came with a message of preparation, of cleansing, of purification, of putting on the clothes of heaven so that we are able to stand. Yes the offer is staggering, but then so should be our response. The love expressed founded the universe and our world and lives in everything.

But we are either complete on that day, or chaff, blowing in the wind, useless, a shadow, not adding up to anything.

Love and weakness. The whole idea of security without respect, feeling, sensitivity, openness and honesty is just insane. No relationship works like this, especially not with the creator. He laid down repentance from the beginning, and emphasised with Cain, rejection comes for a reason, search it out, but Cain did not. It is even worse with Jesus, He asks for love, to understand His heart and to walk in His love and ways. His whole message was this is who I am, be friends with me, live like me. To think He is saying be evil and sin, do not regard my word and ways with sensitivity and a good heart and I will honour you, is just blind and dumb.

The phrase "I never knew you", could be expressed "you never knew me or listened to me, or you would have known who I was."

When people cannot let go of their hearts and let Him in, everything becomes impossible. Little wonder they then create a Jesus who ignores the sin and need and just embraces them with no conditions. Keep what you are, the life you have, and gain eternity as well. Does not match what Jesus said.

25 The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honour the one who serves me.
John 12:25-26
Click to expand...
Your posts are always so deep and meaningful that they kind of leave me without words...but I think you know this by now.

Yes, I NEVER KNEW YOU is like John when Jesus says that HIS sheep know His voice and they FOLLOW HIM.
John 10:27

Jesus plainly says why He Never Knew Them...
Matthew 7:23 Because they were LAWLESS.
He even repeats this in Matthew 13:41

But they like to say that they are the unsaved....
Where does it say that? Nowhere...because Jesus was concerned with filling the Kingdom of God...He didn't speak about being saved too much...He DID speak about HOW to get into the Kingdom. (here).

We must serve Him to follow Him...
Follow Him and serve Him.

John 12:36
"WHILE YOU HAVE THE LIGHT, BELIEVE IN THE LIGHT, IN ORDER THAT YOU MAY BECOME SONS OF GOD."
 
JLB said:
Think of communion or fellowship, as “common union”.

This common union we as the Church, is the Spirit of Christ.

It’s not a temporary thing, but an eternal union with Him and each other.


If we are not in union or fellowship with Him, then we are lost.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


JLB
Click to expand...
Agreed.
We must be in the Kingdom here in order to be in the Kingdom after.
And Jesus taught us how to get into the Kingdom.

Prayer
God as Spirit
We are the light of the world
Love
Forgiveness
Right attitude
 
wondering said:
If you believe that only one person is necessary to reconcile and that the relationship is not dead....then you agree with eternal non-conditional security.
Click to expand...

I understand what you are railing against. Paul sums it up nicely.

Romans 6:15- 16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Yom Kippur teaches us that as long as one party is willing to reconcile, then reconciliation is possible. It also teaches us that once a relationship is broken, it can take twice as long to reconcile than it took to establish the relationship.
Yom Kippur derived from the ceremony at Sinai... And Israel broke covenant before the relationship was consummated. By all rights, God could have let them all die and start over with Moses. But He didn't. It took 40 days to build the relationship and 80 to reconcile after it broke, and Israel was lost during that time.

Paul teaches that God is love, and he also teaches that love is patient, and always hopes. God is always willing to reconcile, but to your point, it takes two parties to participate for reconciliation to occur and you know me well enough to know that repentance plays a role.
 
StoveBolts said:
I understand what you are railing against. Paul sums it up nicely.

Romans 6:15- 16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Yom Kippur teaches us that as long as one party is willing to reconcile, then reconciliation is possible. It also teaches us that once a relationship is broken, it can take twice as long to reconcile than it took to establish the relationship.
Yom Kippur derived from the ceremony at Sinai... And Israel broke covenant before the relationship was consummated. By all rights, God could have let them all die and start over with Moses. But He didn't. It took 40 days to build the relationship and 80 to reconcile after it broke, and Israel was lost.

Paul teaches that God is love, and he also teaches that love is patient, and always hopes. God is always willing to reconcile, but to your point, it takes two parties to participate for reconciliation to occur and you know me well enough to know that repentance plays a role.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by the word "railing" against?
 
wondering said:
What do you mean by the word "railing" against?
Click to expand...
Your driving the point that one can be lost to those that believe they can never be lost.

To you I say, I agree. But I also add that it doesn't matter how lost one finds him or herself, they may be found.

Jesus tells several parables that illustrate this.
 
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