When Fellowship is Broken

[GodsGrace]

We did a study on Paul last night.
It brought to mind this,

4 For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God's power we will live with him to serve you.
2 Cor 13:4

I do not think of Jesus being weak, in need. Another phrase used in some translations is "perfected". Christ was perfected through the cross.

There is a real sense in which God made Himself weak so that the Father could fill Him up with love and support. Inter dependency is Gods way, the trust and risk involved is part of His nature. It is probably why some want security in Christ, certainty, because this is our understanding of love, but not agape love. Agape love is prepared to take the risk the other will not be there.

Jesus continually compared types of love, and how love has different values. Loving friends is easy, loving your enemy, very hard, dying for your enemy not of this world.
This understanding and vulnerability is what Jesus said would mark out His people.
And I have met people like this, though maybe I did not know how to describe it.

If a people claim to know love, yet have not discovered the risk and vulnerability, they have not really begun to understand Jesus.

Could you please speak more to what I highlighted above?
I'm not sure I really understand this.

And I don't really understand 2 Cor 13:4
I THINK I understand it,,,but not really.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your driving the point that one can be lost to those that believe they can never be lost.

To you I say, I agree. But I also add that it doesn't matter how lost one finds him or herself, they may be found.

Jesus tells several parables that illustrate this.

Sorry SB,,,rail is a really severe word.
I don't think I was doing that,,,but I do feel strongly about this and I think that's what you meant.

As to reconciliation...
Yes,,,I also agree with you,,,If just one person is willing to reconcile...then it is POSSIBLE to reconcile,,,however both will have to desire this.

As to Yom Kippur...Yes, when a relationship is fractured,,,it takes time to recuperate what was had before --- if ever. Some believe it's not even possible. But, as Jesus said: With God, all things are possible! The Holy Spirit restores to us a feeling of love the way only God can do.

And good point about the Mosaic or Sinai Covenant. It was conditional....man broke his part...so God was not obliged to keep His....but God is love, mercy and just. He is always looking for us because of His love.

 

[PeterJens]

Could you please speak more to what I highlighted above?
I'm not sure I really understand this.

And I don't really understand 2 Cor 13:4
I THINK I understand it,,,but not really.

I think Paul is getting at the sense of certainty. When Paul wanted the thorn to be removed, it was not so he remained in need.

Jesus of all should have known the outcome, had the strength, except through weakness love was made perfect. The Lord could have taken all in strength, yet He chose to be weak, to be trampled, to suffer, hurt and feel alone.

I have wondered about knowledge which is always limited, absolutes that have limits. Man seems to do worst when we prize certainty above love.

So the enemy are those guys, the problem is this idea, the rules mean clean hands.

I know being right is dangerous if we think it is us and not our following. Moses rebuked Israel, not the Lord. We need weakness to see reality.

Our dilemma is in arriving we stop and fail. Ironic. David rested from war and fell with Bathsheba. I am no better. God bless

In perspective if Paul was perfect the Lord would not say. And Paul would never judge himself as tomorrow is a new day.

 

[stovebolts]

And good point about the Mosaic or Sinai Covenant. It was conditional....man broke his part...so God was not obliged to keep His....but God is love, mercy and just. He is always looking for us because of His love.

Yes, and that was understood and recognized in Jewish thought based on Deuteronomy 28 and how those blessings and curses we're realized in Israels history of exile and return.

Fast forward to Jesus day and occupation was in many ways worse than exile. Compound that with Harod who was not only NOT from the tribe of Judah as promised to David (all kings in Jerusalem were from the tribe of Judah), but Harod was part edomite, an enemy to Israel.

Why was this happening? The Pharisees reasoned it was because Israel was not keeping Gods commandments per Deuteronomy 28. So they doubled down on the law.

This misunderstanding caused them to lose focus, and it was clearly understood that one could be "lost". This is without question.

What was in question was, " could those that are lost be found"?

It is through this framework Jesus tells the three parables relating to lostness and the great joy of being found. This was the true ministry of the law as Israel was called to be a light to the nations ( Deuteronomy 4:6-10 ).

Is is understood that we can all become lost. But the emphasis isn't proving one can be lost. No, the emphasis is that one could be found. And that is the beauty and the intent of Jesus parables on lostness.

Truly, the gospel is good news.

 

[JLB]

Is is understood that we can all become lost. But the emphasis isn't proving one can be lost. No, the emphasis is that one could be found. And that is the beauty and the intent of Jesus parables on lostness.

Truly, the gospel is good news.

Truly good news.

The fact that heaven rejoices when someone who is lost returns and is reconciled back to God, who is not standing and accusing, but welcoming with open arms, and reinstating the relationship gladly, as the ring, the robe and the sandals indicate.

The father’s reaction, as “seeing from a far off” tells us he was looking and longing for this relationship to be restored.

It teaches us our attitude as well, of humility and repentance, returning with a grateful heart of even being accepted as a slave, confessing “I have sinned against you”, and heaven, no excuses.

Truly a beautiful story, that I’m sure upset the self righteous Pharisee’s, when they heard it.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Truly a beautiful story, that I’m sure upset the self righteous Pharisee’s, when they heard it.

And a beautiful way to outline how our gracious Father looks upon us.

The prodigal son was not an uncommon parable amongst the Jews and was widely known. However, in their rendition, the returning son was outcast and rejected by his Father.

So yes, they didn't know what to make of it...

I may be able to find a copy of their rendition to contrast with the changes Jesus made.

 

[JLB]

And a beautiful way to outline how our gracious Father looks upon us.

The story of my life.

I can relate how good our God is.


Sooooooo Good, all the time.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, and that was understood and recognized in Jewish thought based on Deuteronomy 28 and how those blessings and curses we're realized in Israels history of exile and return.

Fast forward to Jesus day and occupation was in many ways worse than exile. Compound that with Harod who was not only NOT from the tribe of Judah as promised to David (all kings in Jerusalem were from the tribe of Judah), but Harod was part edomite, an enemy to Israel.

Why was this happening? The Pharisees reasoned it was because Israel was not keeping Gods commandments per Deuteronomy 28. So they doubled down on the law.

This misunderstanding caused them to lose focus, and it was clearly understood that one could be "lost". This is without question.

What was in question was, " could those that are lost be found"?

It is through this framework Jesus tells the three parables relating to lostness and the great joy of being found. This was the true ministry of the law as Israel was called to be a light to the nations ( Deuteronomy 4:6-10 ).

Is is understood that we can all become lost. But the emphasis isn't proving one can be lost. No, the emphasis is that one could be found. And that is the beauty and the intent of Jesus parables on lostness.

Truly, the gospel is good news.

Sorry for the delay....

Above is good as far as the Covenants and the understanding the Pharisees had of being lost. Of course, we understand things differently today.

Heaven rejoices over finding one lost sinner:

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

So my question to those that are fixated on being "born again" would be twofold:

1. A lost person can be found......
2. But can he become lost again.

Your post does not answer this question for me.
Anyone that is lost can be found.

Are they then safe forever no matter what?
This concept very much disturbs me.
I never argue beyond a couple of posts with those that clearly are a disciple but believe this concept of eternal security. But I can go on and on with someone that is NOT, very obviously, living a life of sin and telling me it's OK because they're safe.

Somehow our churches have become too lax and are not preaching the word of God.

 

[stovebolts]

Above is good as far as the Covenants and the understanding the Pharisees had of being lost. Of course, we understand things differently today.

Yes, we do understand things differently today. And because we do, it's easy for any of us, including myself to mistakenly twist and distort the original meaning and intent of scripture to fit into our current way of thinking.

This can be dangerous, because when we put the emphasis outside a passages original intent, we risk changing the narrative.

A lost person can be found......
2. But can he become lost again.

Your post does not answer this question for me.
Anyone that is lost can be found.

My post wasn't intended to answer your question. It was intended to bring the focus back to it's original intent and purpose.

Can a person be lost again? What these passages show is that the emphasis is on them being found, and the great joy associated with those who were lost, but are now found.

Are they then safe forever no matter what?

This goes to the root of the question of identity. Who are we in Gods household and what kind of a Father do we serve. In my view of scripture, this is the underlying conversation that nobody seems to talk about and is often overshadowed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, we do understand things differently today. And because we do, it's easy for any of us, including myself to mistakenly twist and distort the original meaning and intent of scripture to fit into our current way of thinking.

This can be dangerous, because when we put the emphasis outside a passages original intent, we risk changing the narrative.


My post wasn't intended to answer your question. It was intended to bring the focus back to it's original intent and purpose.

Can a person be lost again? What these passages show is that the emphasis is on them being found, and the great joy associated with those who were lost, but are now found.
This goes to the root of the question of identity. Who are we in Gods household and what kind of a Father do we serve. In my view of scripture, this is the underlying conversation that nobody seems to talk about and is often overshadowed.

I forget what forum we're in,,,,
but just quick....
If we're IN the house of our Father...we're Sons and Daughters.
If we leave the Father's house,,,we also leave the Kingdom of God on earth and we leave our security.

We have a twisted sense of what being born again means these days.

Being born again means being one with God,,,in fellowship with Him...in His company and as His companion.

This will not last long if we continue sinning with no regard (as some say can be done).

Others believe in eternal security because Jesus said He gives eternal life to His sheep.

Well, of course IF they remain His sheep.

Now,,,I'm not debating with YOU....but IF I were:

Would I be trying to win an argument...
OR
Would I be trying to get someone to wake up and be a disciple?

I mean, I know it's up to the Holy Spirit, but don't we still speak the truth? I always go to the Early Fathers when there's doubt. They did not believe in eternal security but emphasized a good life, good works, and a steady faith.

Yes, I know, I'm peeeerfect!!!
:halo

 

[JLB]

I forget what forum we're in,,,,
but just quick....
If we're IN the house of our Father...we're Sons and Daughters.
If we leave the Father's house,,,we also leave the Kingdom of God on earth and we leave our security.

We have a twisted sense of what being born again means these days.

Being born again means being one with God,,,in fellowship with Him...in His company and as His companion.

This will not last long if we continue sinning with no regard (as some say can be done).

Others believe in eternal security because Jesus said He gives eternal life to His sheep.

Well, of course IF they remain His sheep.

Now,,,I'm not debating with YOU....but IF I were:

Would I be trying to win an argument...
OR
Would I be trying to get someone to wake up and be a disciple?

I mean, I know it's up to the Holy Spirit, but don't we still speak the truth? I always go to the Early Fathers when there's doubt. They did not believe in eternal security but emphasized a good life, good works, and a steady faith.

Yes, I know, I'm peeeerfect!!!
:halo

We see things differently in scripture.

Jesus was teaching three different sets of people, at the same time, His disciples and the Pharisees... and us, those who would read His words in a different time, and culture.

The truth of His message is timeless, yet diverse.


The parable of the prodigal son, gets to me, because of former backsliden lifestyle. God is so good. I’m thankful for this teaching in ways no one else can fathom.


I don’t think The Pharisees enjoyed the teaching so much.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

We see things differently in scripture.

Jesus was teaching three different sets of people, at the same time, His disciples and the Pharisees... and us, those who would read His words in a different time, and culture.

The truth of His message is timeless, yet diverse.


The parable of the prodigal son, gets to me, because of former backsliden lifestyle. God is so good. I’m thankful for this teaching in ways no one else can fathom.


I don’t think The Pharisees enjoyed the teaching so much.




JLB

Agreed.
I know a few pharisees,,,but they're not on this site.

The Prodigal Son is my favorite parable.
And, in reference to my discussion with StoveBolts,
I'd say that it answers our entire conversation.
The son was saved....
He left home and became lost....
He was saved again.

This is what I always post when someone feels they cannot come back to God.

The lost need to repent...as you always say.
God will always accept a contrite heart.

 

[JLB]

The son was saved....
He left home and became lost....
He was saved again.

I agree, although I say he was reconciled back to his father.

Or


The severed relationship was restored.


All of which lead us to the same conclusion.




JLB